Talk:Cinco de Mayo

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You have new messages (last change).
WikiProject Mexican-Americans Cinco de Mayo falls under the scope of WikiProject Mexican-Americans, an effort to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to Mexican-Americans on the Wikipedia. This includes but is not limited to Mexican-Americans as well as those not so affiliated, country and region-specific topics, and anything else related to Mexican-Americans. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.
??? This article has not yet received a rating on the quality scale.
??? This article has not yet received a rating on the importance scale.
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Holidays, which aims to improve Wikipedia's coverage of Holiday-related topics. If you would like to participate, you can edit this article, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of objectives.
??? This article has not yet received a rating on the Project's quality scale. Please rate the article and then leave a short summary here to explain the ratings and/or to identify the strengths and weaknesses of the article.

Contents

[edit] Editors! Please lock this article!

Given that the last 50 edits are all anon vandalism, is it time to semi-protect this page. jmj 23:51, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

AGREE! There is actualy no more constructive contribution to give to this article. It should be locked!!--Magi Media 03:23, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Please watch this article for vandalism

This article undergoes a great deal of vandalism near the May 5th date. We request all editors be vigilant year round and remove extraneous remarks that add no value to the content of the article, especially racist remarks. Thank You! Magi Media 03:02, 29 June 2006 (UTC)Magi Media

The vandalism doesn't seem to be confined to the 5th of May time period either. Why not put a temporary block on editing this article? Alcarillo 21:31, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Why Cinco de Mayo?

Out of all the holidays Mexico celebrates, why did Mexican-Americans choose Cinco de Mayo to be their holiday in the US? There are many holidays Mexicans from Mexico regard more important. 205.174.22.28 01:20, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Just another excuse to party

I love it:

"Non-Mexican Americans also use the holiday as an excuse to party. Tequila consumption increases on this day."

Guilty as charged! --mav

I wrote this from personal experience.  :) - Zoe

Aren't all national holidays used for the same purpose? This is not material for an Encyclopedia...sentences like: "but many people treat it as an opportunity to get drunk" are innecesary and diminish the seriousness of this article.

True though. If there are Martians, or Albanians, for that matter, here and saying "gosh, Americans are really interested in Mexican history. Irish, Italians, Jews, even French people are celebrating!" the article should disabuse them. --♥ «Charles A. L.» 01:10, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Battling over the battle

Isn't there rather too much battle stuff here, which would more logically be in the battle article instead? And (nitpick) shouldn't the article be "Cinco de Mayo" not "Cinco de mayo" (I don't know the fmsdnfjkadnjfnajksdnfajksdhfjspanish rules for capitalizing months)? -- nmxk KLJBNJK>FSLGHjflAHvcjbdlfgabvlfhdsbglbhjfkzsbhkbvglahbdvgdahflriFinlay McWalter | Talk 13:37, 5 May 2004 (UTC)

Hold the mayo! I noticed this too. Months are ordinarily not capitalized in Spanish (or other Romance languages), but it is the name of a holiday. Perhaps its just dependent on the language its being used in, which in this case (the English-language Wikipedia) would mean using Mayo ("Cinco de Mayo" being a proper noun). –radiojon 19:52, 2004 May 5 (UTC)
Urgh, so really there's a good reason for it to be either way :) -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 20:10, 5 May 2004 (UTC)

The 5th of May is not Mexican Independence Day, but it should be! And Cinco de Mayo is not an American holiday, but it should be. Mexico declared its independence from mother Spain on midnight, the 15th of September, 1810. And it took 11 years before the first Spanish soldiers were told and forced to leave Mexico. fasdklf o[ kaeopfasdifud jfioehjg;iashufr8audio syaufidhaweui

So, why Cinco de Mayo? And why should Americans savor this day as well? Because 4,000 Mexican soldiers smashed the French and traitor Mexican army of 8,000 at Puebla, Mexico, 100 miles east of Mexico City on the morning of May 5, 1862.

The French had landed in Mexico (along with Spanish and English troops) five months earlier on the pretext of collecting Mexican debts from the newly elected government of democratic President (and Indian) Benito Juarez. The English and Spanish quickly made deals and left. The French, however, had different ideas.

Under Emperor Napoleon III, who detested the United States, the French came to stay. They brought a Hapsburg prince with them to rule the new Mexican empire. His name was Maximilian; his wife, Carlota. Napoleon's French Army had not been defeated in 50 years, and it invaded Mexico with the finest modern equipment and with a newly reconstituted Foreign Legion. The French were not afraid of anyone, especially since the United States was embroiled in its own Civil War.

The French Army left the port of Vera Cruz to attack Mexico City to the west, as the French assumed that the Mexicans would give up should their capital fall to the enemy -- as European countries traditionally did.

Under the command of Texas-born General Zaragosa, (and the cavalry under the command of Colonel Porfirio Diaz, later to be Mexico's president and dictator), the Mexicans awaited. Brightly dressed French Dragoons led the enemy columns. The Mexican Army was less stylish.

General Zaragosa ordered Colonel Diaz to take his cavalry, the best in the world, out to the French flanks. In response, the French did a most stupid thing; they sent their cavalry off to chase Diaz and his men, who proceeded to butcher them. The remaining French infantrymen charged the Mexican defenders through sloppy mud from a thunderstorm and through hundreds of head of stampeding cattle stirred up by Indians armed only with machetes.

When the battle was over, many French were killed or wounded and their cavalry was being chased by Diaz' superb horsemen miles away. The Mexicans had won a great victory that kept Napoleon III from supplying the confederate rebels for another year, allowing the United States to build the greatest army the world had ever seen. This grand army smashed the Confederates at Gettysburg just 14 months after the battle of Puebla, essentially ending the Civil War.

Union forces were then rushed to the Texas/Mexican border under General Phil Sheridan, who made sure that the Mexicans got all the weapons and ammunition they needed to expel the French. American soldiers were discharged with their uniforms and rifles if they promised to join the Mexican Army to fight the French. The American Legion of Honor marched in the Victory Parade in Mexico, City.

It might be a historical stretch to credit the survival of the United States to those brave 4,000 Mexicans who faced an army twice as large in 1862. But who knows?

In gratitude, thousands of Mexicans crossed the border after Pearl Harbor to join the U.S. Armed Forces. As recently as the Persian Gulf War, Mexicans flooded American consulates with phone calls, trying to join up and fight another war for America.

Mexicans, you see, never forget who their friends are, and neither do Americans. That's why Cinco de Mayo is such a party -- A party that celebrates freedom and liberty. There are two ideals which Mexicans and Americans have fought shoulder to shoulder to protect, ever since the 5th of May, 1862. VIVA! el CINCO DE MAYO!!

First, this is directly copied. Second, it's false. Learn some about Napoleon III and then say thats right. it's not. Learn your History! That is "Historical Fiction". and plagiarism. its at this webpage, based in TEXAS not Mexico. If you read through, you'll notice the following historical fallacies (and many more)
  • "Emperor Napoleon III, who detested the United States, the French came to stay." Napoleon 3 was too busy with the Prussians and his growing "empire" to care about the US. And they were tearing themselves apart anyway.
  • "Napoleon's French Army had not been defeated in 50 years," Maybe nitpicking, but first off, the Bourbons returned after Napoleon Bonaparte, and he lost only 47 years earlier. And note the change in Napoleons.
  • "General Zaragosa ordered Colonel Diaz to take his cavalry, the best in the world, out to the French flanks" whoa... The mexicans had the best calvary? Then why didn't they conqueror anyone? Oh wait. They didn't. The Poish, French of Prussians did. Reality check.
  • "French did a most stupid thing" DId this come from the persons who said the french have never won a war? Because that's how you would win a battle. Protect your flanks.
  • "Indians armed only with machetes" not sure if this is true, but isn't that kinda stereotyping?
  • "won a great victory that kept Napoleon III from supplying the confederate rebels for another year" Look, the rebels were screwed. They had money based in the north and almost no industry. Not to mention a crappy navy. Besides, the British wanted to supply the rebels... Not the French... and then we released the Emancipation Proclamation, stopping that.
  • "Union forces were then rushed to the Texas/Mexican border under General Phil Sheridan, who made sure that the Mexicans got all the weapons and ammunition they needed to expel the French" What?
  • "It might be a historical stretch to credit the survival of the United States to those brave 4,000 Mexicans who faced an army twice as large in 1862. But who knows?" Whoa... An army of 8,00 could have taken out an army of 150,000? Thats a pretty sweet army... I want one...
  • "That's why Cinco de Mayo is such a party" Here is the truth. It's a party in America. Very little celebration (not none, very little)

Now I'm spent Motor.on 01:28, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

I am reading these accounts above and have not been able to come to terms with it all based on the research of the battle I have made. This battle is the pinpoint of a big needle, significant in one way, miniscule in another. Please read the latest account of the Battle of Puebla as I have posted it. It at least keeps with the basic story that is consistent with three or four accounts, and begs to dispense of myths and Hollywood enhancements. Magi Media 14:52, 12 August 2006 (UTC)Magi Media

[edit] Not so much a Mexican celebration

Just to clarify some ideas that people might have about this date, in Mexico this celebration is not as important as they make it seem in the United States. It is of more importance to people of Mexican heritage living in the United States than to Mexicans living in Mexico.

The most important date to a Mexican in the patriotic sence is the 16th of September. Few occasions make a Mexican feel more patriotic than this others being when the Mexican Soccer Team wins a game in a World Cup :D.

This is a very good point and should probably be in the article itself. You'll find parties on cinco de mayo are more concentrated in tourist towns than any other in Mexico. - 67.172.124.99 14:21, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
Indeed, the Spanish page suggests that it's barely celebrated at all except in Puebla itself. seglea 20:35, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] May 5th Impact at Mexico

Actually I disagree, it is of great relevance to me as a Mexican and my family and friends do celebrate it. At any rate both your point of view and mine are more personal level comments so I feel there's no need to include any such "importance in Mexico" in the article. After all, not only Americans and Mexicans cherish it, but also people from Guatemala, Peru etc.

Any Mexican people I know are baffled about the US celebrations for Cinco de Mayo. They tell me they never celebrated it. Independence Day in September is their largest national holiday.

I sure as hell wish I knew who I was talking to! But to respond to the above, I have asked Mexican friends of mine at church about 16 of September, and all they could do was shrug. Not every Mexican national is up to speed on their historical events and find some other things more important to celebrate. The last sentence in this article that was added is relatively bogus and unnecessary. Some Mexicans just aren't up to these historical celebrations. They celebrate family stuff. Baptisms, communions, quinceañeras, etc. Those are the biggees! But my mom's Uncle Ramon, from Guaymas, used to celebrate Cinco de Mayo every year here in Los Angeles during the 20's. Magi Media 02:51, 11 June 2006 (UTC)Magi Media.

[edit] Battle proceedings

I support the comment that battle proceedings should be ommitted as this article is about the festivity. Besides it is highly unaccurate, it should at the very least expose them as theories but I'll spare the corrections for the battle article itself.

What!? No way. First off, where is the battle gonna go? That'd be like leaving the Birth of Christ out of the Christmas article. Or whatever the point of Halloween is out of the Halloween article. The holiday is about the battle (and the victory) and therefore it must be there. Sorry for the contorted christmas comparison. Motor.on 01:11, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

To be honest, I don't get why anyone would vandalize Wikipedia. It's only asking for it when it says anyone can edit it. Why don't they verify they eidts before including them or even make people use other websites that are trusted to verify the information. If you ask me, Encarta is way better even though you have to pay to search its in depth sections. For more information please visit ign.com (I am in no way affiliated with ign.com, instead I just tell people to go there because most of the time they have interesting things to say such as what possibly will happen at E3). I am Paco. Thank you for your time. By the way, I'm wearing my "I make stuff up" shirt while writing this.

Well, due to the extremely fast rate of vandalism beign fixed, and the fact that there is more information on Wikipedia, If you don't like it, please do vandalise! Then you will never be able to contribute again to this database of human knowledge. But that's not the point! the point is to have everyone contribute what they know, creating a massive database of fact. And It is almost as accurate as Encarta on Scientific, peer-reviewed articles (3 mistakes as opposed to 2). But if you feel like vandalising, then go ahead and use your limited, not free database. Motor.on 00:49, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] From a Gringo's Perspective

My maternal grandmother (abuelita) was born in Mexico, though she is of pure Spanish descent. My mom was born in East LA. The family recipe is an enchilada dinner which my Irish father even relished. It wasn't until we grew up that we began to celebrate Cinco de Mayo, and then it was all fun, food and drink. So out came the "chilades" as we called them, and the margueritas...and party.

My mom called it Mexican Independence Day --- and why --- because who really knew and who really cared. We just partied. And all the restaurants use it as a big day like the Irish St. Patrick's Day, which by the way is not a celebration of a battle. But it is a big reason to party, and it seems all the world gets into it. Now I've lived in LA all my life so Cinco de Mayo (which sounds like 4th of July) was just a big party day without understanding or needing to understand the cause behind it.

Fortunately, it has something behind it so it's not like celebrating Ground Hog Day. And in So Cal it has more meaning than La Quatorze Juillet (Bastille Day). For the articles sake I think that an accurate story of the battle need be portrayed, then a transition to the celebration that it is today. POVs or other hearsay need be properly remarked.

This article is written sort of anonymously, so it might behoove someone to come up with a verifiably accurate story and sort through whatever might be a revisionist historical account on this article. And that the User/author leave some credential. Magi Media 05:03, 4 May 2006 (UTC)Magi Media

I have been reading around on Cinco de Mayo and the Battle of Puebla. There is a Wikipedia story on the battle already, and this Cinco de Mayo article may be telling the story in some sort of redouble. I would suggest that the battle section of this story be referred to the article, with some very abridged synopsis. Then the part on the celebration, which in this article is not to far off base, be more emphasized. Maybe this article wouldn't be as big as it is now, but it would define Cinco de Mayo more relevantly, and leave the battle potion to a more historical article.

I have also noted in the story some remarks that may be more mythical than factual, like the Mexicans being armed with nothing more than machetes, or this story about a stampeding herd of cattle. And the rain, like a daily monsoonal downpour, came at 3 in the afternoon as expected. It affected the battle which just took too long during the day to resolve. It's possible that these parts of the story are a little revised. Magi Media 14:05, 4 May 2006 (UTC)Magi Media

[edit] Maximillian Bonaparte?

Maximillian was not related to Napoleon III. Please fix this factual error.

Maybe not directly — but I thought I read he was the husband of a niece of a of a cousin, something like that. I don't think he was a random selection. Magi Media 13:51, 5 May 2006 (UTC)Magi Media

[edit] Why Cinco de Mayo is built up over the real Independence day

Cinco de Mayo was bult up by radical "Chicano" students in the 60s looking for something to celebrate their "Mexicanness". They didn't want to use the real Independence Day (9/16) because that was too close to Labor day and right after school started so people would be too busy to properly celebrate. They found this obscure victory and built it up into something greater than it really deserves.

That's an interesting theory, and coupled with some corporate advertising I can believe its probably the true origin and how it took off.-BillyRego
Hold up on that thought! I asked my mother today about Cinco de Mayo back when she was young, the 30's. She is a hispanic born in East LA and remembers how much of a big deal her Uncle Ramón used to make about Cinco de Mayo, and that he used it as an excuse to party. But they were of the impression that it was an Independence Day, They had no idea about the story behind it. This stuff is old...not recent. Magi Media 20:19, 5 May 2006 (UTC)Magi Media

[edit] Cinco de Mayo: Day off in US Schools?

So I wanted to add something that caught me off-guard. I live in a community with quite a large Hispanic community, and I can't tell how long it's been like this. The last week (this post/edit being made as of May 5th, 2006) has featured very heated debate in my city over the issue of illegal immigration, amnesty, and conflicts between those who feel anyone should come in.

What struck me as odd is the fact that the local school district had scheduled Cinco de Mayo as a school holiday. Being a public school, one that was thinking of cancelling Federal holidays, this disconcerted me. What shook me even more was that they decided, apparently very recently, to hold school on the 5th of May anyways. Dropping my younger brother off at school, I noticed that only about half the parking lot was full, so it seems most people still used the day to party.

The reason I'm adding this to the discussion is A) It's my first time posting here, and B) I have a feeling that Cinco de Mayo, for as much as it's been latched onto by the food companies, is going to become a subject of debate and another "battle" in the debate over illegal immigration. I am quite intruiged to find out if any other schools in the US got out for Cinco de Mayo, or were even considering it. It should be noted that I live in Rockford, IL... No where near the Southwest.--Athenor 17:51, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Am I crazy?

... or is this posting just a little bit racist?

Now, I'm no bleeding-heart Liberal, but don't you think:

- labelling Mexicans using the slur "wetbacks" and

- referring to the stereotype of "drinking tequila, screaming unintelligable slogans, and shooting guns into the air"

is vaguely inappropriate when explaining what some would consider a national holiday?

If I had more knowledge on the subject, I'd edit the posting. However, I don't.... so can I appeal for someone else to?? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jacka16 (talk • contribs).

This page is suffering serious vandalism today. I'll go check to see if it got hit again. GRBerry 18:15, 5 May 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Patrick's vs. Mayo

St. Patrick's Day and Cinco de Mayo are very much alike in the U. S. People of cross-ethnicities just love to party on those days. They both feature food and drinking. As a matter of fact the Irish really emphasize the drinking!! The only difference is that C de M celebrates the victory of a battle where SPD doesn't. Lord knows I celebrate them both alike. From an Spanish Irishman, I salute you all: Buen Cinco de Mayo! Magi Media 04:55, 6 May 2006 (UTC)Magi Media

They are also very different, in that St. Patrick's Day celebrates being Irish - and it's observance in the US far predates commercial influences. (Though it is increasingly commercial, like many other US holidays.) Cinco de Mayo (among the non-hispanic Americans) on the other hand is almost completely the creation of beer and tequila importers and producers as a reason to consume their products to excess. 24.16.164.253 23:28, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry, you're wrong. I'll bet you dollars to donuts that more Guiness and Jamesons is consumed on St. Patrick's Day per capita than Corona and Cuervo on Cinco de mayo. Of course the holidays are different, but in reality, not by much. And stop being such a whimp and leave you're open signature. Magi Media 03:18, 12 May 2006 (UTC)Magi Media


St. Patrick's Day and Cinco de mayo are very similar. I mean what kind of message does it send when my white friends celebrate the holiday more than I do? I have a multi-racial friend that uses her Spanish roots as an excuse to celebrate the holiday, which when you think about it makes no sense because she's Spanish not Mexican. Even some racist people, namely those who refuse to stop calling me a "wetback" celebrate it. Even the boy from Chile celebrates it! Corona comes out with all these ads right before it, telling you to have a Happy Cinco de mayo. It's a completely commercial holiday. My father refuses to celebrate the "American Holiday", my father a proud Mexican man from Guadalajara, telling me not to observe it. It's as American as it can be, while still maintaining the Spanish name. It's an American holiday! LatinaEinstein 22:10, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Comment directly from Mexico

As you probably will notice while you read this I am Mexican (spanish-mexican),5 de mayo is definitely not a representative Mexican holiday; when I read about the strategy and tactics used in the fight, the gallantry of those men fighting against the unbeatable legionaries and regular French Army, I feel myself proud of my country men, however that's because I am Mexican, I like history and war events but celebrate that date is for Mexican's as much as Chapultepec's battle in September 13th against US Army, or July 1st when the Mexicans fought and won against Hernan Cortes and his Spanish troops. If the people in US found 5 de mayo as a day to identify themselves with their roots that's fine, sometimes is Mexico when the national football team wins a match is almost a national holiday, but we must stay clear in the fact that 5 de mayo is an important day just for the people in the states, if American, European, African or Asian guys want to be part of the celebration that's great because "Is a day to get party in the US". I have celebrated St Patricks Day's twice, I went to an Irish Pub (here en Mexico city) get drunk with a couple Guiness, and none of the English guys around my had a complain about me because I was celebrating in that important day for them... what did I say?? English? wrong right? No offense I am trying clarify that sometime we don’t know why is the reason of a celebration, in fact I was not really sure if they were Irish, Scottish, English, Germans, French, Americans or Mexicans, we were all celebrating must of us with no idea why we were doing so. Upon the euphoria my girlfriend asked me why is SPD celebrated and I was unable to answer her, I feel ashamed of myself then I decided to check wiki because I felt that it was a quite strange being drunk having no idea why. Anyway some facts about the Battle of Puebla would be nice to see in the article, for example there were indians with machetes fighting against Suavos, the Zacapoaxtlas indians (and other Puebla's native groups)formed a battalion recruited by the Mexican Army, indeed they were fighting with carabins and machetes, this wasn't a disadvantage because they knew perfectly their surroundings of course they were not the main force but guerrilla warfare was used, much like the Vietnamise recruited by green berets against Viet-Cong. I would like to add this kind of information about the battle but first of all as you probably have realized I must improve my English.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Skull13 (talk • contribs).

I think Skull had a few too many before he wrote this!!--Magi Media 06:23, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
If you have information to add about the battle, please add it to Battle of Puebla if it is not there already. This article is about the US celebration.--Rockero 19:54, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org../../../c/i/n/Talk%7ECinco_de_Mayo_34a0.html"