Talk:Ciel (Mega Man Zero)

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[edit] Removed line from Personality

Although this could be possible, it is highly unlikely since the death of Iris, his ex-girlfriend whom he killed during a fight.

I removed this line because the paragraph gives evidence on how Ciel might be in love with Zero, but according to this line, this idea is unlikely because Zero has a past love. It is entirely possible for love to be one way, that Ciel could love Zero but he doesn't love her back because of Iris. --Zeromaru^TC 15:11, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

And how would Zero remember Iris?

[edit] Picture

Can we get a picture of her on this page? Articles are, in my opinon, stupid if they lack pictures. BassxForte 04:19, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Personality

I hate when people say to use the talk page even though they have not presented one shred of evidence to back their argument. OK, back up your claim with something relevent. Nemu 20:44, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

The first section of the personality section mentions her compassion, this desrves to go, mainly because it is copied from another website, a mega man fansite, "Ciel Network" I think.

The second part mentions she is more of a scientest then a fighter, this is an accurate statment, I raise an eyebrow to the "she has matured a lot since the first game" line however.

The third part mentions that she can remain calm as long as Alouette is near, Alouette specifically states this in the first game, talk to her and a certain point in the game and you'll get it.

The fourth section mentions her speculated love for Zero, almost every fan of the series sees the quotes that imply love, also note that the fact it hasn't been confirmed is the reason for the "Many fans of the series" line. BassxForte 20:52, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Even if the second part wasn't OR, it's pointless to mention. We don't care about her resolve. Point three is all OR. If it isn't, source it. Just because one small point is true, the rest isn't automatically true. As I said before, countless yaoi fan girls want Zero to have sex with every male character of the series. Do we list that also? We would have to because their claims are just as sound as yours.

You have not proven why these statements are not OR, you have not supplied any sources(I'm not going to check a game to verify your claims), you are writing from a point of view, most of the information is trivial, ect. Nemu 21:05, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

One of Alouette's lines in the first game is "Ciel once told me... I am like a security blanket. That she can feel relaxed, no matter what, as long as I am near her side... That's why I have made up my mind to stay with Ciel forever". You believe it's trivial, if that is the case, I don't see anything stopping you from putting it in a triva section on this page. BassxForte 21:22, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

There won't be a trivia section. Now, why the hell didn't you just state she said all that in the first place? That can be readded as one sentence with that as a soucre (copy the style of the Final Fantasy X citations). Now, please revert yourself, readd one sentence in character history (after it mentions her) with that as a source. That's the only thing you can back, so the rest needs to go. Nemu 21:29, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

The entire personality section is OR. Even the parts that are just plot summary are OR in their inclusion; someone decided that "This moment is an insight into her personality" and "That moment is an insight into her personality." All of the attributions are implicit if extant at all, and consist of vague handwaves to "the fan community" or directly to the games. This is blatant original research, and it's not the business of this project. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 22:58, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Thats the sort of thing I hate, when people refuse to do anything without offcial information from an offical source, although all the yoai pairings exist, they are simply made-up pairings made by fans, however there are points in the game that suggest Ciel does in-fact have romantic attractions toward Zero, although you two would just say thats one way to view it, it should be pointed out that almost every single fan views it the exact same way, the fact there is offical evidence that supports, albeit not out-right stating this idea is the reason why the article mentions the "fan" view. BassxForte 01:45, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

We refuse to do anything without some sort of reliable publication commenting on the subject, rather than interpreting the games. We're not here to interpret the games. We're not here to interpret or analyze works of fiction. We're here to replate the interpretation and analysis of reliable publications.

You seem to be under the misapprehension that we're arguing that this analysis isn't canon or is wrong somehow. That's not the problem at all. The problem is that it's original, unpublished analysis. Canon or rightness doesn't enter into it. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 01:49, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

I understand that, what irks me is the fact you would scorn the romantic connection unless in one game Ciel out right said "I love you, Zero", no matter how obvious or plain it was ohterwise. BassxForte 02:10, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Yup! We're not here to derive conclusions about implied feelings on the part of fictional characters. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 02:15, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

I gave you a direct quote from Alouette regarding her importance to Ciel, if you want to be given a source, go to gamefaqs, go to the GBA section and check Mega Man Zero, then go into the faq titled "Text Dump", its one of Alouette's quotes. BassxForte 03:47, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Incidentially Black, are you saying that Wikipedia will not (as in absolutly, without an agrument, without a doubt) mention anything about a romantic relationship between "character A" and "character B" if it's not outright ststed in offical material, no matter how obvious/blunt it is? BassxForte 03:47, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

No, I'm saying that Wikipedia won't speculate about romantic feelings in the absence of publications making those speculations. Please save me the time of linking other poorly-written articles; it's not okay to stomp all over the floor the janitor just mopped just because the rest of the flor is still dirty. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 03:55, 24 March 2007 (UTC)