Talk:Church of the SubGenius

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[edit] Uncategorized Comments

I wondered how long it would be before J.R. "Bob" Dobbs and his adherents would put in an appearance. I would have done this myself but I couldn't be bothered, too busy slacking... user:sjc

There appears to be *two* entries for the Church of the SubGenius: one under "Church of the subGenius" (with a small S) and another under "Church of the SubGenius" (with a large S). The first needs to be forwarded to the second, to avoid confusion.

Let me have a look... user:sjc They would appear to be //very// similar articles. I think the slack thing to do would be to leave them alone and see what happens... user:sjc

I was just wondering.. Have any of you seen the light? Sigg3.net

Every time I turn on my living room lamp when I get up in the morning. Or were you referring to something else? -- Modemac

Well, you answered my question. Sigg3.net

The advent of the Internet in the mid-1990s? Huh?

That's when the Internet suddenly went mainstream, as the popularity of email and the Web suddenly exploded, beginning in roughly 1994 or so. --Modemac 23:25 28 Jul 2003 (UTC)

This page has been linked from all sorts of serious articles, like Zen, Pee Wee Herman, and slackware. I am wondering, is this legit, or somebody's attempt at vandelism by propegating his idea of a joke to a dozen serious articles? Remember, an encyclopedia is a medium in which you must separate the wheat from the chaff, for the benefit of the readers. Is mentioning the obscure (if it exists at all) church of the subgenius important in understanding what Zen is, for example? Is the origin of the name slackware really in this "church" or is this a lie/hoax? user:nyh

The Church article is legitimate -- Wiki is not paper. The Slackware link is appropriate -- it's the inspiration for the name, apparently -- but the Zen link is debatable.—Eloquence 07:59, Dec 11, 2003 (UTC)
I, for one, think that the Zen link is appropriate. It does appear in the section '"Zen" in Western Pop Culture' The quotes are the clincher.—Barry

What the hell is "underground pop-culture"? Isn't that an oxymoron? Kent Wang 14:38, 15 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Something that's underground is something that is disliked by and hidden from authority figures, so I suppose it would be "pop-culture that's disliked by authority figures". Olathe 07:57, 25 Jan 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Sources

Can anyone provide sources for "Such high-profile names as Pee-Wee Herman, David Byrne, Mark Mothersbaugh, Penn Jillette, and actor Bruce Campbell have become SubGenius ministers, though they generally keep their affiliations with the Church quiet in order to protect their public image."? Andre (talk) 18:17, Nov 13, 2004 (UTC)

The source of most of these is Reverend Ivan Stang and the SubGenius Foundation, Inc. (Stang has been a regular participant on the newsgroup alt.slack for the past ten years - post there yourself and find out). Pee-Wee Herman joined in the early 80s, and even had a picture of "Bob" on the wall of the first season of his "Pee-Wee's Playhouse" show. David Byrne joined when researching his movie "True Stories." Mark Mothersbaugh and Devo have been members since the early 80s, and Penn Jillette and Bruce Campbell have both been confirmed by the SubGenius Foundation as having paid-up memberships. (Campbell signed up under a pseudonym, but he admitted himself that he is a member.) --Modemac 04:38, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Vandalism

Hrm. 67.77.100.140 vandalized this page, I fixed it, and now the vandalized version doesn't show up in the history. Oh well. --Myles Long 17:53, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Praise Slackers

This is a blessed thing ya'll got going here. May the dobbs head never frown upon your slack.. - Pope Sinphaltimus Exmortus of F.E.D.C.O.M.S.

[edit] Joke Religion

If any actual members of the Church of the Subgenius think it's a joke religion, feel free to change back the category structure.... if you are not a member? please quit apostate kibitzing upon our faith.

p.s. the following dialogue is related to this topic

as my good faith efforts to edit wikipedia have been removed maliciously...... i feel little qualm at posting 'bad faith' efforts.

cheers! member of a "Joke religion" (preceding unsigned comment by 71.102.46.231 02:28, 26 August 2005)

You labeled Christian Broadcasting Network a joke religion (although it itself is not even a religion, it is a broadcasting network). You also changed a category of Church of the SubGenius to a category of a personal comment. And then you vandalized the Israel page. If you actually wish to perform good faith editing, please see Wikipedia:Welcome. -- BMIComp (talk, HOWS MY DRIVING) 07:37, 26 August 2005 (UTC) If you do not agree with the 'joke religion' category you may bring it up on the SubGenius talk page or remove the category altogether. However, please do not insert commentary (or anything else that isn't a valid category name) into the category tag. Thanks! Thatdog 07:42, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

as per your suggestion, i have brought it up on the 'talk' page, and changed the category tags to appropriate tags for our faith. I hope you would respect the sanctity of our faith by not altering it to the pejorative joke religion category without approval from a substantial number of church members, we may be sacrilegious and cynical but we are a valid faith as the following post in alt.slack demonstrates quite conclusively.

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.slack/msg/fd8e77db816a1dd2?dmode=source

p.p.s. i have added the categories prophecy, cults, and Religious faiths, traditions, and movements to our category list and wonder how you all feel about my adding the category Category:Hominid cryptids, please note... this does apply to members of the church primarily and not to wikibitzers of the conspiracy who would desire to see us portrayed as a 'joke'.

It's obvious that you've missed the whole point of this if you truely think it's a religion. Last_Drop_of_Sanity 22:21, 3 October 2006 (UTC)


What about all that 50's counterculture and halloweeny stuff? The iconography? Can't you put some of that in, for the love of pete?

[edit] "The Church of the SubGenius is a satirical pseudo-religious organization...."

This is how the article starts now. As the Book of the SubGenius says, at the beginning of Chapter 1 (the second chapter, of course!), "'Is this some kind of joke?' Well, if you thought the Church was a joke, then you'll by God NEVER 'GET' THE PUNCHLINE." (p. 13)

Therefore, I'm going to change the beginning to "The Church of the SubGenius is a satirical, postmodern religious organization...." See the postmodernism article where it cites to Lyotard re: "incredulity toward metanarratives" -- the Church is a metanarrative that is hostile to or incredulous towards not only other metanarratives (relatively common among religions) but to its own, and, indeed, towards the notion of metanarrative itself. --MitchS 18:56, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Satirical, yes. Postmodern, maybe. But religious institution? Not so much. I posted a version of the following on new editor User talk:Al-Kadafi's page in response to his recent changes, but it is equally appropriate here:

It's clear from multiple sources that SubGenius is considered a parody religion.

Unless some Verifiable and reliable sources for the claim that the Church of the SubGenius is a "religious organization" (outside of just really, really wanting it to be), then promoting this view on Wikipedia is Original Research. —LeflymanTalk 02:26, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

What exactly is required for a group to be a "religious organization" (note: not a "religion" necessarily) OTHER than "just really, really wanting it to be"? Applejuicefool 08:08, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree with applejuice, Is there a definition of "religion" or "religious organization" anywhere on wikipedia that we can use? Maybe someone should start one? Defraggler 08:41, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

It should be pointed out, for the matter of this discussion, that Enviromentalism, Atheism, and Anti-Americanism are all "religions" of a sort. All are followed to the strick teachings, not taking facts into account and flowing basically on the faiths and beliefs of the movement. If this is the case, then The Church of the SubGenius is most definately a religion. 70.108.113.132 22:57, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Road & Track : The Need for Speed

Does anyone remember the Bob Dobbs track in this PC game? I vaguely recall that the billboards around the track had the Dobbs pic with the slogan "Trust Bob Dobbs" underneath

Modusoperandi 06:45, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] just a quick point

A note to all editors who might be editing this article without having done yourselves the favor of actually reading the damned pamphlets: if you aren't capable of realizing it's a blatant parody, you are a 100% certifiable Pink. Thank you, and have a nice day. -Kasreyn 06:53, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Why do people have trouble understanding this? Flinders 00:43, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
Stare at the dobbshead, if you don't get it from that. You never will. No matter how hard you try.
Defraggler 01:25, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
Yes, it's all just a joke. Ha ha! You're obviously missing the entire message if you think it is infact a joke. The Church of the Subgenius is not a complicated joke engaged in disguising itself as a religion, it's a religion engaged in disguising itself as a complicated joke. The whole thing is about original thought. If you think it IS a joke, then you haven't gotten past the pamphlets. You haven't done much original thought on the subject. You've stopped at the facade that's designed to deter normal people and stop the corrupt corporate machine from perverting the cause. Thus proving your own pinkness. - Lucy, 5:14, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
I've started to feel lately that the path to true slack lies in admitting your pinkness. Defraggler 04:11, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
The path to true slack lies in not worrying too much about who gets the joke. - Jmabel | Talk 02:44, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
At least somebody on this page gets it. Defraggler 16:32, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] SubGenius Membership Allegedly Leads to Loss of Child Custody

This should probably get some mention: [[1]]

How sad. I've heard of at least one case of Christian Scientists (who specifically disbelieve in the germ theory of medicine) allowing one of their children to die of medical neglect (treatable meningitis), and not having their other children taken away due to freedom of religion. And being a member of a satirical group is worse? That judge needs counselling. -Kasreyn 22:45, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Her blog [2] says this Wikipedia article was cited in the case. Ashibaka tock 03:02, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

I added a link to the hearing transcript. I wonder if this is the first time that Wikipedia has actually been proffered as evidence. Reading the transcript I see that defense counsel objected and the court actually refused to admit the article as evidence, as it is obviously hearsay at the very least. The respondent was asked to read the article and testify on it, however. Here is the relevant testimony from cross-examination by Mr. Mark, counsel for the petitioner and the child's biological father:

(Petitioner's Exhibit 18 marked for identification.)
Q. I'm going to show you what's been marked as petitioner's exhibit 18 and do you recognize that?
A. No.
Q. You don't recognize that at all?
A. I recognize the name Wikipedia but that's all. I've never seen this document before.
Q. You recognize the name Church of the Sub-Genius, correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Would you dispute the fact that this is a download from the Church of the Sub-Genius website which describes the principles and tenets of that organization?
A. I would dispute that. It says quite clearly here it's downloaded from Wikipedia dot org.
Q. Would you dispute that that document reflects the symbol and the tenets and principles of the Church of the Sub-Genius?
A. I agree that this is the symbol of the Church of the Sub-Genius, this man's face Ward Cleaver as Your Honor said, however I haven't seen this document before so I can't tell you.
Q. I'm not asking you if you've seen the document before. I'm asking you if that document does in fact describe the principles and precepts and concepts behind the Church of the Sub-Genius?
A. Having never seen it how could I answer that?
THE COURT: Just read it and answer the question.
A. It will take some time, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Well do it.
A. Could you repeat your question?
Q. I said does that document reflect the teachings and concepts for which the Church of the Sub-Genius stands?
A. In part.
Q. In part. And which parts are those?
A. The part where it says, the part where it says the church is incorporated as a profit-making enterprise and the part where it says church members frequently pull practical jokes on each other even as they are using their comedic talents to other ends is true and it is, actually I would only say this section under sense of humor is true because the rest of it is a parody that is written in a straight format. I would say only the part under the section sense of humor is the only part that's accurate I would say.
Q. Oh, so the part that says the church encourages humor, comedy, parody, and satire to a point far exceeding that of most religious faiths, that's true, correct?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. This belief is probably why the church is seen on one level as an elaborate joke?
A. Yes.
Q. An arguably post-modern mockery of organized religion, correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And a parody of controversial religious groups and cults especially Scientology and Evangelicalism or Fundamentalism, Protestantism—
MR. AFFRONTI: Your Honor, objection, he's reading from something not in evidence.
THE COURT: She's already testified to a lot of the contents and characteristics. Are you going to offer in evidence?
MR. MARK: Yes.
THE COURT: Any objection?
MR. AFFRONTI: She says not all of it is true, Your Honor, yes.
THE COURT: Sustained. It's hearsay anyway. And unlike the pictures which of course any ten year old child cruising the web and Googles his mother's name and finds those pictures posted on the world wide web would be very disturbed, (here the judge is referring to pictures of the respondent's X-Day participation) the mere fact that this is on, available on the internet is irrelevant so that's hearsay.
MR. MARK: Well, except now she's acknowledged parts of this as being true.
THE COURT: You know, it just doesn't matter at this stage. I think it's just one of those things obviously I'm not going to send the child back with her, so I would curtail, I mean I think we're looking at what kind of contact there should be right now if any at all. So you might want to gear your, the rest of your hour to that.

NTK 04:14, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

...obviously I'm not going to send the child back with her...
So yeah, apparently Wikipedia got used in court, wonderful. Unfortunately the judge apparently made up his mind without even listening to her arguments. What a dick. -Kasreyn 20:42, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
just relax, you didn't get the joke, Kasreyn. 64.173.240.130 20:55, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] re: satirical Nixon campaign ad

I think you're mistaken that it was vandalism. I found it hilarious myself, and it's exactly the sort of random thing a Subgenius might do. It was, however, off-topic. -still giggling, Kasreyn 18:14, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] re: tax paying

Incidentally, "the only religion that is proud to pay its taxes." doesn't hold: The Church of Satan also pays taxes.

But is it proud to do so? --Myles Long 18:04, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
I think yes. La Vey was of the mind that churches should not be tax-exempt and had the CoS pay taxes voluntarily. NTK 16:42, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
Undoubtedly Yes! It is at the core of Satanic philosophy: personal responsibility. LaVey addressed this issue directly. Khirad 00:48, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

In fact on the Church of Satan wikipedia page it says:
" The Church of Satan does not have or desire tax-exempt status, though they are eligible. As part of what it refers to as Pentagonal Revisionism the Church of Satan is actively working towards taxation of all churches, and tries to put forth a policy of "responsibility to the responsible". It neither solicits membership nor offers a set course of degrees."
Defraggler 05:35, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hour of Slack article

There should definately be an article concerning the radio show, so any pretty plusgood SubGenii feels up to starting up the article thereon? DrWho42 17:28, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Say, what was wrong with the pamphlet #2 link, anyway? Zeno Izen 01:41, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
It's really just the continuation on No.1 really.. Pamphlet No.2 was really just the second page of the first, so not neccesarily need to be included anymore on the links. (Anyways, I put it up there in the first place..)DrWho42 01:48, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Recusal

What does "recused himself on pre-existing grounds" mean? I'm pretty familiar with law for a layman, but the juxtaposition of the two terms strikes me as odd. Existing prior to what? Apparently not such as to make him recuse himself from the first trial... - Jmabel | Talk 18:39, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Seems rather redundant to me as well. "Recused on grounds of x" seems most sensible. The concept of a recusal, itself, carries the understanding that a prior event or situation would make participation inappropriate. Kasreyn 22:41, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] A joke, Sure it's a joke.. but so is everything else

I think that the thing about the church as a joke is most certainly true. BUT it's no more a joke then ANY other so called "religion." That's somewhat the philosophical point of it all. The COTS only tells the whole truth about 3 things

  • "Bob" Dobbs is your short duration personal savior, and he wants your money. In exchange for the mere price of $30 you get eternal salvation or triple your money back.
  • On "X-Day" July 5th, 1998 the x-ist will rupture all dues paying subgenius and allow them onto the escape vessels of the sex goddesses. All non dues paying people will be..... To put it delicately... horribly destroyed in a myriad of imaginatively bad ways...Some of them involving alien species of bats. You really don't want to know.
  • Most everything else is a lie.

Other religions lie about or neglect to mention the third point. To us it's a selling point! We're telling the truth about the BS. And we're the only one that does so.

Understanding the joke does not mean I "get" it. I won't fall into that trap. 8> Defraggler 05:46, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Ya know after thinking a while, I think I was a little to high on CON slack when I wrote that. The previous statement is not only completely false, but a conspiricy lie posted by a N**gi shill. And thus, I've struck out my own writing.

[edit] X-day in christian bible?

Is there a similar myth for an X-day in christian Bible too. Do they make an assumption for the end of the world on some date, (and that date has already passed).--nids 06:28, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Not explicitly, at least. That hasn't stopped a millenia-long parade of sect leaders, self-proclaimed prophets and armchair bible scholars from "decoding" some specific date or another from various passages. JamesofMaine 23:15, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
Ahh but how many of those churches that predict the end of the world Continue to gather on the holy date long after the conventional calendar date has passed?I can only think of a couple.Defraggler 13:56, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
Was there a date around 1000AD (or CE as you like) in actual versions of translated bible.--nids 14:12, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] WP:V

user:NLOleson has marked this page as violating WP:V I'm going to Assume good faith.

When placing a Verifiability tag, you need to indicate on the talk page what on the page is of questionable Verifiability, and how to fix it. I'm starting the discussion for you, please feel free to express what needs to be done. Defraggler 14:23, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

...

NLOleson = Nenslo?

Defraggler 14:35, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm more than willing to offer verification for anything questioned on the page. --Modemac 21:17, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
Please do. For example, the major link on the page for the quotes is to an internal Wikipedia link The Book of the SubGenius. First, an internal Wikipedia link does not comply with WP:V. Also, if you read the The Book of the SubGenius talk page you will see there is a discussion over whether the book is satire, a fluff piece, or serious factual material. So:
  • Internal links to other Wikipedia articles are not satisfactory as reference citations.
  • Make sure your external links comply with WP:EL.
  • Check WP:CITE for the acceptable forms of citations. Currently the article has no citations for the various claims it makes. Citations are required per WP:V for all articles.
I would put citation needed tages where the citations are needed but I have been told that people associated with the Starwood Festival take offense at that.
So provide the verification for the page in the appropriate Wikipedia format and the article will be find. Hope it works out well. NLOleson 10:48, 25 August 2006 (UTC) This user was found to be a sock of Mattisse
Okay, the quote in question is on page 5 of the Book of the SubGenius. Problem solved. --Modemac 10:42, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
So..... If we changed the link to an external reference.. say a store that carried the book, would you find that accetable? or would we have to link to the complete text of the book?
You know, we link to the hour of slack on the page. I'd say that most or all of this stuff has been mentioned by the higherarcy on that show at some point. I mean, there only has been about 1052 shows, an hour long. It's broadcast on several "real world" radio stations, and available for down load via podcast or direct feed online.Defraggler 01:06, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
Well, addressing the issue of linking to a bookstore, bookstores are specifically listed in the section of Links normally to be avoided in WP:EL. And links to other Wikipedia articles don't pass WP:V. Like they repeat so often, the reference citations have to be to reliable, verifiable, unbiased third-party sources. NLOleson 20:41, 26 August 2006 (UTC) This user was found to be a sock of Mattisse
P.S. Linking to Book of the SubGenius doen't count because it does not abide by WP:V (which is supposed to be used in conjunction with WP:RS and WP:OR. NLOleson 20:47, 26 August 2006 (UTC) This user was found to be a sock of Mattisse

[edit] The book of the subgenius and WP:V, WP:OR, and WP:RS

  • WP:OR: It's an Origional literary work that was published by Simon & Schuster (1987)
  • WP:V: It was published by "reputable publishers:" Simon & Schuster
  • WP:RS: Is admittedly troublesome, it's a dense policy that can not be easily summed up. I don't know of a "scholarly journal" for cult religious material. I can't really find any secondary sources that meet WP:OR and WP:V. Thus I am forced to use the primary source. the book of the subgenius.
As far as citing goes, I have found a online search engine for the entire book. I can site pages withing the book now with ease. I'd ask for a list but NLOleson seems to be reluctant to provide one.
Defraggler 23:33, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
Check a well cited article like Fidel Castro as an example. Any quotes need a citation. Any claim of fact needs a citation. You can see in Fidel Castro that factual statements that could be challenged must be cited. I can sprinkle your article with tags, but that usually upsets people. Another article often recommended as an example by one of the admins for people in your situation is 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict. There is a simple template to use for the footnotes (which are prefered) but you can do html inline citing if you want. I can help you with the templates if you get the citations. It's actually very easy once you get the hang of it. NLOleson 02:30, 27 August 2006 (UTC) This user was found to be a sock of Mattisse
So... Every page on wikipedia needs the degree of citation found on the Fidel Castro or 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict pages? The citations would be bigger then the page itself. Defraggler 02:54, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
I skimmed through my encylopedia britanica. I don't see that degree of citation. Defraggler 02:56, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia is aiming to have the credibilty of Encyclopedia Britannica. Wikipedia also says that unsighed articles in any encyclopedia are not ideal citations for sources, since no one is taking responsibilty for how reliable and unbiased the information is if the article is unsigned.NLOleson 12:50, 27 August 2006 (UTC) This user was found to be a sock of Mattisse
In this respect, Britannica is not a good benchmark. Their credibility in terms of factual accuracy comes from having carefully selected writers and editors, expert in their respective fields. Because we are the "Encyclopedia that anyone can edit" (emphasis mine), we need a higher standard of citation. - Jmabel | Talk 19:18, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Joke religion!

Looks like a joke, smells like a joke, is a joke! Flinders 22:25, 25 August 2006 (UTC) This user was found to be a sock of Mattisse

I'm half tempted to go copy that comment to several major religious pages, I wonder what they would say/do? But I won't, because that would be wrong... even insulting. Defraggler 00:52, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
I'd say the difference lies in original intent of the founder(s). The trouble there is, founders of satirical religions rarely come out and say, "this is a satire/joke", because they're having too much fun with it. This has also been a minor bone of contention at Flying Spaghetti Monster. Kasreyn 10:29, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Of course it is a joke. Or, more precisely, an elaborate, deadpan satire. Citable material to that effect would be welcome. Or at least I would welcome it. - Jmabel | Talk 19:21, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

In general, articles on such jokes have, out of 100 editors, one joker who wants to claim it's a real religion/philosophy they soberly entertain, 9 editors who feel they must pretend they don't know a troll when they see one, and 90 who know it's a joke but don't bother to speak up because the floor show is just too funny. Kasreyn 02:55, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
Pardon me for not being a member of the Church of the SubGenius, but I must comment of the original post. Is the religion that believes there are a race of aliens who dictate our current actions based on an ancient war a joke? Is the religion that claims that a blood drinking and flesh eating group of twelve who follow a being who walks on water, heals the sick and rises from the dead three days after he is killed a joke? Is thinking that man has the power to shift nature at his own will, therefore being able to melt the polar ice caps, boil the seas and destroying all life in a mattrer of a few years, a joke? If so, then Scientology, Catholisim and Environmentalists are all satire and Tom Cruise, the Pope and Al Gore must all be false prophets. 70.108.113.132 23:17, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Citations

Ok folks, The page is getting marked for citations needed a bit now. We can begin to site the books and pamplets that these statements come from.

I'm simply going to follow behind those Citation needed tags and begin to cite.

I'm definately not an expert on citation styles. I can, however, easily find the books and pages that need to be cited. Consider what I put on as a place holder for those who have more specific knowlege of citation. As those people have not stepped up as of yet. I'm going to follow the style already used on the page.

Defraggler 02:10, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

A bit of confusion on my part Flinders, do you mean by your tags that the last sentance in those paragraphs needs citation? or are you trying to mark the entire paragraph for citation?Defraggler 02:52, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Defraggler - please see above where this has been discussed

Defraggler, please see above under 16. WP:V above where this has been descussed. Please consult TomTheHand or some other administrator if you continue to be confused.

Below is a quotation from another admin sent to someone else whose talk page I read. The admin is talking about articles where notatability has already been established.

In cases like AppleSearch, where notability is pretty clear, the policy you should stress (and it's POLICY, not just a guideline, let alone a proposed one) is verifiability. WP:V is critical and not up for discussion. Basic claims can be backed up by AppleSearch's documentation, but other stuff has to be backed up by actual research. I'm sure stuff was written on it in magazines like MacWorld, it just may not exist online and may be a pain to find. Encyclopedia writing can be hard sometimes! Mangojuicetalk

TomTheHand says regarding the same AppleSearch article:

Please have a look at 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict, which is a well-cited article. Check out the text after the introduction section, or look at the infobox. The little numbers by various facts, which link to lines in the references section, are citations. Specifically, they are done in the footnote style, but you can use one of the other citation methods on WP:CITE if you like; as your quote states, it's up to you. Note that nowhere on WP:CITE will you find the "list a bunch of links at the bottom of the page" method, because that is not citation.

If you look at the AppleSearch article, you will see that it is a more difficult article to source than yours because the subject is more esoteric. But as Mangojuicetalk says "Encyclopedia writing can be hard sometimes!" Hope this helps. NLOleson 12:41, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Self-published sources

Below are sections quoted directly from WP:V:

The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. "Verifiable" in this context means that any reader must be able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, because Wikipedia does not publish original thought or original research.

Wikipedia:Verifiability is one of Wikipedia's three content-guiding policies. The other two are Wikipedia:No original research and Wikipedia:Neutral point of view. Jointly, these policies determine the type and quality of material that is acceptable in the main namespace. They should not be interpreted in isolation from one another, and editors should therefore try to familiarize themselves with all three. The principles upon which these three policies are based are only negotiable at the foundation level in practice.

[edit] Self-published sources (online and paper)

See also Wikipedia:Reliable sources#Using online and self-published sources

Anyone can create a website or pay to have a book published, and then claim to be an expert in a certain field. For that reason, self-published books, personal websites, and blogs are largely not acceptable as sources.

Exceptions may be when a well-known, professional researcher in a relevant field, or a well-known professional journalist has produced self-published material. In some cases, these may be acceptable as sources, so long as their work has been previously published by reliable third-party publications. However, exercise caution: if the information in question is really worth reporting, someone else is likely to have done so.

[edit] Self-published and dubious sources in articles about themselves

Material from self-published sources, and other published sources of dubious reliability, may be used as sources of information about themselves in articles about themselves, so long as:

  • It is relevant to the person's or organization's notability;
  • It is not contentious;
  • It is not unduly self-serving;
  • It does not involve claims about third parties, or about events not directly related to the subject;
  • There is no reasonable doubt about who wrote it.

[edit] Sources

This is a direct quote from WP:RS:

  • A primary source is a document or person providing direct evidence of a certain state of affairs; in other words, a source very close to the situation you are writing about. The term most often refers to a document produced by a participant in an event or an observer of that event. It could be an official report, an original letter, a media account by a journalist who actually observed the event, or an autobiography. Statistics compiled by an authoritative agency are considered primary sources. In general, Wikipedia articles should not depend on primary sources but rather on reliable secondary sources who have made careful use of the primary-source material. Most primary-source material requires training to use correctly, especially on historical topics. Wikipedia articles may use primary sources only if they have been published by a reliable publisher e.g. trial transcripts published by a court stenographer, or historic documents that appear in edited collections. We may not use primary sources whose information has not been made available by a reliable publisher. See Wikipedia:No original research and Wikipedia:Verifiability
  • A secondary source summarizes one or more primary or secondary sources. Secondary sources produced by scholars and published by scholarly presses are carefully vetted for quality control and can be considered authoritative.
  • A tertiary source usually summarizes secondary sources. Encyclopedias, for instance, are tertiary sources.

Hope this helps. NLOleson 13:46, 27 August 2006 (UTC) This user was found to be a sock of Mattisse

More info has been added to the Book of the SubGenius entry. Hope this helps. --Modemac 17:03, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wading into the self-published sources issue...

Ok, it appears as if we have another place here plauged by discussion over the validity of self-published or primary sources. What a lot of people forget is that a primary source is not automatically bad, and likewise for a self-published source. A primary or self-published source can be used happily as reference for the self-believed principlies and beliefs of a person or organisation. If audited, they can be used for various operating details, such as finaces (not relevant in this case). They cannot be used, however, to prove appeal or non-recorded membership, outside views of the group or it's history (they can be used to state such a claim, but they are not proof). I hope this helps a little. LinaMishima 17:51, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

What you are saying is more like what I see when i read the Wp:V policy.Defraggler 02:20, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Primary sources are perfectly valid when used to show what the group claims. Indeed, it is hard to imagine a better source for this. - Jmabel | Talk 19:23, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Let's get constructive

Since we've had a lot of clarification and discussion but no positive movement, Lets see if we can be constructive here.

  • Some of us know WP:V like the back of your hand, but don't know the source material.
  • Some of us know some sources, but are unable to cite them due to WP:V questions.
  • We have to determine a way that we can work together. It obvious that we are passionate about this page, and wikipedia.
  • Let try and speak in positive terms, "What CAN we do" instead of "What CAN'T we do"

I think the first positive step is to determine if the book of the subgenius is usable as source material or not. I think that's an issue more for WP:V experts.

It's pointless for me to attempt to argue this point; I'm outclassed in this area by Nenslo.

  • LinaMishima: you seems to think that's it's partially acceptable. Could you elaborate a little more on what you mean?
  • NLOleson: Are there ANY conditions where the book might be acceptable? What you think of LinaMishima's statement?
  • Anyone else have anything constructive to contribute?

Defraggler 03:11, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, the Book of the SubGenius is a perfectly acceptible source. It is the defining document of the church. Saying that you can't use it would be like saying the Christian articles can't use the Bible or that Islamic articles couldn't cite the Koran. It's explicitly allowed under WP:V to use self-published and/or self-descriptive works in articles about the work itself or the organization which produced it. Don't let the NLOleson's of the world push you around. -999 (Talk) 15:07, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
It's refreshing to find somebody that agrees with me. 8> Defraggler 22:54, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
  • This is an example of a parody religion page, Flying Spaghetti Monster, that can be used as a model of how to do a professional looking Wikipedia article. Flinders 14:08, 30 August 2006 (UTC)


I think a fundimental change might be needed on the article. something along the lines of "The church claims" instead of stating some things as facts. Might make it easier to cite the books/pamplets.

I found some good sources to search the 2 books online.

You'll have to have an amazon.com login The text is fully searchable, use the search bar to the left. We CAN'T directly link to these pages in any way.. but we can use it get specific pages to cite.

Book of the subgenius: http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0671638106/ref=sib_dp_pt/104-0949790-3504704#reader-link
Revelation X: http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0671770063/ref=sib_dp_pt/104-0949790-3504704#reader-link

Repeat we CAN'T in ANY WAY link directly to either of these.

Defraggler 23:09, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Philip Gale's biography doesn't say that

Philip Gale's biography, which you link to in the article, doesn't say anything about the Church of the SubGenius so you'll need a citation. Flinders 23:15, 28 August 2006 (UTC) This user was found to be a sock of Mattisse

Citations added. Anything else? --Modemac 02:58, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
That's great! Good for you. See, it can be done! That's the king of backup you need for other statements in the article. NLOleson 17:57, 29 August 2006 (UTC) This user was found to be a sock of Mattisse

[edit] Who is Mitch Hedberg?

And why is he linked on the subgenius page. I don't know of a connection. Defraggler 05:03, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Agreed, it's a pointless plug for someone who isn't (or wasn't) associated with the Church. --Modemac 22:01, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Speaking of plugs, We now appear to have a link for an online store. http://www.popularnaughty.com/designstore/ looks like a shameless plug to me. Removing it.Defraggler 02:44, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cult ---> Alleged cult

Without any discussion on this page, User user:Antonrojo has moved this page to Category:Alleged cults with the comment

"(add to 'alleged cults' subcategory per category organization system)"

Anybody have any opinion on this? Defraggler 03:10, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Good idea. Otherwise under the new system, SubGenius would be the ONLY oraganization in the old category. Dr U 04:46, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
Ahh thanks for posting on the discussion page dr. u! I'm sorry that you "cleaned up" your talk page before we could contine our discussion.
I completely see your point now. Why? Because you posted on the talk page of the article and made it relivant to the article in question. Thanks! Defraggler 07:23, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
I don't see how this belongs in cult when it's clearly a parody religion, not matter how far the adherents take it. --Belg4mit 00:56, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 1953

About the founding of the Church in 1953: that was the year that J.R. "Bob" Dobbs had his Divine Emaculation, as described in the Book of the SubGenius. The vision he had of JHVH-1 the alien space god inspired him to write the PreScriptures (which are also part of the Book) and found the Church. This is the source of the 1953 date, and of the citation of the year 1953 on page 5 of the Book. --Modemac 19:52, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Which is a perfectly good citation for the Church making this claim, but is no more citable for fact than (for example) the New Testament is for miracle of the loaves and fishes. - Jmabel | Talk 23:55, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
And this is why the article says "The Church claims to have been founded in 1953," rather than saying "The Church was founded in 1953." --Modemac 17:00, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
Yes, but I (for one) have probably had to revert back to that at least three times. - Jmabel | Talk 04:17, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] X-days

Shouldn't there be something explicit about XX-day, XXX-day, etc.? --Belg4mit 00:43, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

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