Talk:Chronicle of Morea

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The initial version of the text in this page was copied from Morea#Chronicle of Morea. It will be amended and expanded soon.--FocalPoint 07:04, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Does anyone has access to a copy of one of the original publications? It would be nice to put a scan of the first page.--FocalPoint 07:15, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Modern or Medieval Greek

I refer to the edit [1], where Medieval Greek has been replaced by Modern Greek as the language of the text of the Chronicle of Morea. According to the relevant articles, Medieval Greek's symbolic boundaries start with the transfer of the capital of the Roman Empire from Rome to Byzantium (Constantinople) in AD 330, and end with the fall of Constantinople to the Ottoman Empire in AD 1453, while for Modern Greek The start of the period of the Greek language known as "Modern Greek" is symbolically assigned in the the fall of the Byzantine Empire (1453), although strictly speaking it has been shaped since at least the 11th century. The comment by User:Miskin says "the Chronicle of Morea, the Ptochodromic poems and the Acitic poems are the first attested litterature in modern Greek" (I suppose he means acritic poems). I think that this comment deserves to be mentioned in the text, if there are references to support it. If there are no references, I believe that the symbolic definition of Medieval vs. Modern Greek (1453 AD as their limit) should be kept.--FocalPoint 15:29, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

I too believe that we should keep the distinction between medieval and modern greek. As far as I know the language of the byzantine vernacular texts is considered as medieval Greek . It is true than these texts (Digenes Akrites, Ptochoprodromic poems, Chronicle of Morea etc) are traditionally considered as the beginnings of modern Greek literature, not only for linguistic reasons, but this matter is last years under discussion and reconsideration and, anyway, although the texts are still called (from the literary aspect) both "byzantine / medieval vernacular" and "(early) modern greek" and these boundaries are sometimes symbolic, I believe that from the linguistic aspect they belong to medieval greek.--Elena153 21:05, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

The language of the Chronicle exhibits the usual morphological and syntactic characteristics of Mediaeval Greek (vernacular) and, as such, it is always treated as a mediaeval text in handbooks or histories of the Greek language (e.g. G. Horrocks, Greek: A History of the Language and its Speakers, London & New York 1997, p. 276-81). Though it is hard to trace clear-cut boundaries between linguistic periods, the extremely high concetrations of archaisms and learned forms, especially the retention of the infinitive, offer strong evidence to regard the Chronicle as a mediaeval text. This continues to be the standard view. Dr Moshe 06:47, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

This is by no means the standard view. Yes, both chronicle of Morea and Ptochoprodromus contain archaisms, but those archaisms are artificial, irrelevant to the Modern Greek elements prevelant to the text. Also those archaisms are not Medieval Greek. Medieval Greek has almost no attested texts. The Byzantine literary Greek is neither medieval nor modern Greek, it is artificial imitation of Attic Greek, unintelligible to both Medieval and modern Greek speakers. The vernacular language was not used at the time, and when it was used, it inevitably contained several archaistic elements (see the equivalent modern use of passé simple in literary French). The real middle-late Byzantine vernacular was much like today's Modern Greek in all linguistic aspects. Despite those archaisms, those texts are recognisably Modern Greek. We don't really have an authentic medieval Greek text so as far as vulgar Greek is concerned, the distinction between "medieval" and "early modern" Greek is very thin. Miskin 13:50, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Like I said in the edit summary, current linguistic consensus regards those three works as the first attested texts of Modern Greek (see H. Tonnet - Histoire du grec moderne ou N. Andriotes - History of the Greek language). The Greek language didn't suddenly change upon the sack of Constantinople and became "modern Greek" as soon as Byzantium fell. 1453 is only a symbolic date which aims to link the evolution of the Greek language with Greek history. There are other chronological schemes which place modern Greek's starting point in the middle Byzantine period. None of those schemes argues that the Greek language had shaped into Greek much earlier, well in the Byzantine period. I know very well what the articles on Modern Greek and Medieval Greek say, as they were contributed almost entirely by myself. Miskin 13:37, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

See also here [2] ("it is conventional to date the emergence of Modern Greek dialects to about the 10th to 12th centuries (AD)"). Miskin 13:52, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Based on what we have here, I will now remove the "modern" greek, without replacing it with "medieval"., leaving it just "greek", no link. I will later (during the weekend maybe) add a paragraph presenting both points of view. You can all check and edit as usual.--FocalPoint 18:57, 29 March 2007 (UTC)