Talk:Christianity and Islam

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1 Changes
2 Asceticism
3 Commandments
4 Rename this article

[edit] Changes

This article would have merit IF it

1) provides some examples of works of comparative religion that use the term "Christo-Islamic Values" and

2) provided some examples of Muslim clerics who have criticized the notion "Judeo-Christian" values, and

3) listed some values that are specifically, and exclusively, Christo-Islamic Slrubenstein

Google comes up with zero' hits for "Christo-Islamic values" and only 71 for "Christo-Islamic". -- Zoe

Only 71 huh? Whats the magic number 72? LOL -&#35918&#30505

Looking at the links, the VAST majority are actually for Judeo-Christo-Islamic Danny

Are you suggesting a change - perhaps on universally equal terms? -&#35918&#30505

I looked through the article. There are several questionable assumptions, one of which, that Islam is a break-off of Christianity, is, as far as I know, just plain wrong. I would defer to Elian's opinion on that, since I am not that well-versed in Islam. Other claims don't seem to be saying very much. I don't get what the article is really about. If it is about monotheistic religions, it should be Judeo-Christo-Islamic, but we already have an article about Abrahamic religions. Otherwise, it should be specific about what Christianity and Islam share that Judaism does not contain. Oh, and Luke 10:27 is quoting Leviticus 19:18.Danny

Islam holds the New Testament and Tanach as among its holy books. That its "decended" from is like always a touchy use of the word. Christians might not like the term, nor Muslims -that their religion is the spawn of something else. It's clearly not as simple as that - but avoiding the notion is wrong. There is a vertical relationship as well as a horizontal one, if youre creative enough to know what I mean. I cant help your lack of understanding, since some of it may be faith-related - you must stipulate. Here is the kanji I picked out for your name by the way, Dan - &#19976 &#27877 -&#35918&#30505

As an atheist, I doubt much of my understanding is "faith-related." A vertical relationship is fine as turvergersation, but it cannot "spawn" anything. In fact, from the few classes I did take on Islamic history, Islam was influenced by both Judaism and Christianity, but that doesn't mean that either religion gave birth to it. Saying so, is an oversimplification of the historical processes involved, and seems to be an insult to Islam as well. Now do you care to explain the kanji? Danny

The kanji is a gift - in your case based on the Chinese pinyin phonetics of your name Da - (big-grand) ni - (adherence/attachment) - but its impossible to directly inherit a meaning from a phonetic. Yes, I agree - the concept of 'spawning' something directly is inapplicable its simplistic - but I contend that its only suggested, per its simplistic meaning. It does need to be changed and I did have misgivings when typing it. -&#35918&#30505

Okay, so lets figure out a better way to say it. There is a relationship and that should be discussed. If that's the case though, that should also be reflected in the name of the article. If the article is about values, it should discuss those values shared by Islam and Christianity, that are not, for instance, shared by Judaism, Bahai, Zoroastrianism, etc. Oh, and thanks for the kanji :-) Danny

Sure, Im suggesting Westerners learn and adapt hanji - thre millenia of ideogram development ought be useful. And I do only my best - (considering my variable level of interest, and time, and information constriants) :)-&#35918&#30505

Just one question though: How come when I look it up at http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/wwwjdic.html the second symbol comes out as mud? Danny

I cut this:

Many Christians view Christ's teachings as being an amendment to, rather than a replacement for Judaism. While Jewish tradition focused largely on issues of law and deference to God's law; over the course of its development central spiritual principles emerged, primarily in the Ten Commandments, which Christians and Muslims hold in reverence. According to a secular, comparative-religion view, the

for a two reasons: first, Jewish tradition includes the development of spiritual principles -- in an article on Christians and Muslims, there is not need to make offensive and ignorant comments about Jews. Second, what follows this passage is not from a secular, scholarly view, it is from a Christian view -- which is perfectly fine, as long as the article is accurate. I also removed another ignorant and offensive comments about Jews and Judaism not caring about brotherhood of humanity in principle (why do you think Jews say we are all descended from one couple?) or in practice (love the neighbor as thyself, treat the stranger with compassion, etc). Again, I have no problems with a discussion of Christian and Muslim values -- but why go out of your way to misrepresent and denigrate Judaism? That can't possibly reflect well on Christians and Muslims! Slrubenstein

First, I agree that there is no reason to denigrate Judaism. It seems reasonable that whatever Christianity and Islam may have in common, they would also have in common with Judaism, and this should be acknowledged. Frankly, I think Christianity has much more in common with Judaism than with Islam, beginning with its scriptures.

I don't think the central premise is actually shared by Christians and Muslim, namely, Christ was the son of God, Christ was my brother, therefore, I too am directly descended from God. Paul writes in Romans that Christians are adopted children of God, not directly descended. But, there are a lot of diverse beliefs in Christianity, so perhaps someone can show me why I am mistaken in thinking that Christians don't share this view. On the other hand, regarding brotherhood, Jews and Christians both teach that all people are made in God's image, as taught in Genesis. Someone recently told me that Muslims do not share this belief that all are made in God's image; can someone confirm this for me? Wesley 04:27, 5 Jun 2004 (UTC)

We believe that his "image" is unknowable and well beyond human conception or capacity to describe, and that all attempts to compare the Creator with the created are inherently problematic. Pronouncing, with full intention and belief, the sentence Christ was the son of God, Christ was my brother, therefore, I too am directly descended from God would, I believe, be considered an example of shirk, the gravest sin in Islam. BrandonYusufToropov 17:10, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)

It sounds like neither Christians nor Muslims affirm that statement, so I'm going to take it out. This is probably going to seriously diminish the degree of commonality between the two. Wesley 17:44, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Not necessarily. The change you made -- a necessary one -- now puts the focus on stuff we just haven't talked about in the article yet. For instance: 1) injunction to remember that God controls all things -- the special providence in the fall of a sparrow, as Shakespeare adapted the famous Gospel passage. 2) Emphasis on constant prayer. 3) Importance of charitable giving. 4) Obligation to reach out across religious divides to help one's fellow human beings, as in Good Samaritan story. 5) Obligation to hide certain virtues (good works such as private prayer or charity), rather than claiming public attention for them or inflating one's ego over them. 6) Delusive nature of apparent physical wealth, and its inferiority as compared to spiritual wealth. All these are in Islam too. There really is much more uniting the two faiths than dividing them, in my view. It's just that that which does divide them -- namely rejection of Trinity and rejection of Godhead of Jesus -- carries (for contemporary Christians) enormous implications. We should acknowledge that fact, but also acknowledge the many, many points of contact. Not for nothing is Jesus considered by Muslims to be one of the Major Prophets. It sounds like a "step down" to Christians, but such status is really quite incomprehensibly advanced in Islam. (The other major prophets are usually identified as Abraham, Noah, Moses, and Muhammad.) BrandonYusufToropov 18:00, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I agree those are things that Christianity and Islam generally have in common, and they are well worth adding to the article. The rejection of Jesus' Godhead is a big deal not only for contemporary Christians but for all Christians throughout history. Just look at what happened with Arianism. A side effect of this disagreement between Christians and Muslims is and has been Islam's iconoclasm, something that is still continuing especially in Kosovo. I will say that Islam is at least internally consistent in rejecting both Christ's deity and icons, unlike Christian Protestants who affirm the former but still reject the latter. Wesley 05:46, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I understand that this is the mainstream position, and I accept and respect that position, and I apologize in advance for any Muslims, including myself, who have from time to time failed to show respect for the position you've just outlined.

For the sake of completeness of our discussion, though, you should know that Muslims firmly believe that the very first followers of Jesus were not under the impression that he was divine, but rather under the impression he was on a divine mission. It's a big difference. So we would, with respect, take issue with the statement that "all Christians throughout history" have accepted Jesus' Godhead. This is one of those divergences I think the article should address. Without in any way diminishing their reverence for the Creator who sent him, or his importance as a Prophet, Muslims understand the "helpers" of Jesus to have been under no confusion as to his status as a human being. In this, of course, they would have differed profoundly from the later Arianism, which held, if I understand correctly, that Jesus was separate from God but nevertheless divine. BrandonYusufToropov 12:14, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I'm aware of the widespread belief that Jesus was a good teacher, wise man, but still a mere mortal. It is shared by Muslims, Jews, many Hindus, and also atheists, with varying degrees of respect accorded to Him. Just be aware that the scholarship that supports the idea that Jesus was a mere mortal generally also rejects any and all supernatural occurrences, and rejects the existence of any kind of supernatural god. A few of these scholars even suggest that Jesus did not exist as a real man, but was entirely invented. At the very least, surely we can agree that for the last 1,600 years Jesus' divinity has been a big deal for Christians, since the First Council of Nicaea. Many Church fathers wrote that if Jesus were not God, then it would be impossible for Him to accomplish our salvation. I believe there is a strong case that Jesus did actually exist in history, that he claimed to be God and that His immediate followers believed that He was, and that they passed on this belief together with Jesus' teachings and practices. I of course acknowledge that this historical view is greatly contested today by Muslims, Jews, and atheists alike. Arians believed Jesus was the first created angelic being, which is still quite different from affirming His full divinity and oneness of nature with the God the Father and God the Holy Spirit. Wesley 18:55, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)

My goal in suggesting that we rework this article is pretty simple: to identify that which is now widely ignored, namely the huge areas of overlap and shared belief between the two faith systems. No rhetorical weapons or dueling scholars, only bridge-building. I realize there are core beliefs that differ between the two faiths, and I want to let you know that I understand that respecting such differences is what makes for a productive dialogue. (Respect for and tolerance toward Christians and Jews is mandated in Islam, though this duty is sadly ignored by many Muslims.) BrandonYusufToropov 20:32, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Ok, why not start by adding in the six or so areas of commonality you listed above: care for the poor, constant prayer, and so on. I'm not quite sure what's meant by God "controlling all things;" I'm sure it would help if I were more familiar with Shakespeare. Wesley 03:54, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Not a sparrow falls in the forest without His knowledge, the very hairs on your head are numbered, none of you can add a cubit to his height by will, that which is whispered shall be shouted from the rooftops -- we could and should, I think, connect these and similar teachings of Jesus, peace be upon him, with the notion of "Taqwa", usually translated (inadquately) as "fear of God" or "piety." It's better understood, perhaps, as, "The obedient, profoundly humble state of mind inspired by the sure knowledge that the Creator guides all things and knows all one's thoughts and deeds." But that's a bit of a mouthful. :) I'll get on this later today, Godwilling. BrandonYusufToropov 11:59, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Tropov, you are using this discussion page as a soapbox. Please stop. KittyHawker 22:48, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Asceticism

The article says: "The delusive nature of apparent physical wealth, and its inferiority as compared to spiritual wealth. (See Luke 6:24, which is a concise summary of a seemingly perpetual Qur'anic theme.)"

What seemingly perpetual Qur'anic theme? Luke 6:24 is quoted but no specific verse of the Qur'an is quoted - just a vauge reference to "a seemingly perpetual Qur'anic theme." Looks like original research to me. It does not even reference the primary Quranic source let alone any exegetical analyses. --Zeno of Elea 12:35, 7 August 2005 (UTC)

I added one verse of reference for comparison, but am not particularly invested in expanding this article myself -- perhaps someone with more time to give should go through and overhaul it to be more clear as to why what is being said is in fact being said. --M. Landers 21:34, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Commandments

what is the behavior code the muslims follow? what commandments do they obbey?--T-man, the wise 09:02, 20 May 2006 (UTC) I think those differences should be key elements to this page, that's the trascendental stuff. Uh, and why did x-tians took of the other 603 commandments? did they (we) rewrote stuff from the Old-Testament? That doesn't make much sense.--T-man, the wise 09:12, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rename this article

I propose the article should be renamed or merged with the Abrahamic religions article. While "Christo-Islamic" would be a helpful word, it simply does not exist (yet). Kudos to whoever coined it and wants to make a word. Until that happens merge or rename. My suggestions: