Talk:Christian symbolism/Archive 1

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This doesn't seem to have anything to do with Christianty as I know it. What are we writing about here? Rmhermen 18:20, Oct 20, 2003 (UTC)

I agree: this article needs complete rework. I guess that Jewish symbolism is a good benchmark for the type of information that we could have in such an article. olivier 21:10, 20 Oct 2003 (UTC)

This is written from a very esoteric point of view, using peculiar terminology from an uncommon approach. My first impulse is to blank it entirely, and start over with more standard stuff dealing with symbols typically used in Christian art, such as the cross, traditional emblems of apostles and saints, common symbols of Christ (e.g. lamb, lion, fish), and of the church, etc. Mkmcconn 23:49, 20 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Why don't you add what you are mentioning in the form of additional paragraphs and somehow keep the existing paragraphs, maybe at the bottom of the article, while potentially editing them? That would be my suggestion for a first round of edit, rather than a complete blanking. olivier 01:52, 21 Oct 2003 (UTC)
The existing paragraphs are pseudo-theological ruminations representative of no one (except, apparently, the author). It's just wrong, all through. But you are right. It would be bad form to blank it. I'll give it a day or two and look at it with fresh eyes. In the meantime, I hope Wesley, or someone else versed in iconography or symbolism could add something off the top of their head. Mkmcconn 02:48, 21 Oct 2003 (UTC)

It does seem rather odd and idiosyncratic, on a first reading. It does get some things right; Christian symbolism evolved from Jewish/Hebrew symbolism in many respects. Christ's death on the cross was a victory over death, but I would personally call it a "real" victory, rather than a "merely symbolic" victory which the current text seems to suggest. I think my concern with this sort of article is that it include some notion of the relationship between symbols and sacraments; sacraments are one way we see God's grace imparted to people, with some physical "stuff" involved. "Symbol" comes from the Greek "sym" + "ballo", to "throw together" two or more different things, and this happens in sacraments through use of symbols. But to say this well in this sort of forum may not be possible within NPOV.

It would be good to include some basic and relatively less controversial information on basic symbology like Mkmconn mentioned above: cross, lamb, ichthus, etc., as well as vestments for clergy. In Orthodoxy, many very practical things have symbolic meaning added to them; a candle in front of an icon symbolizes the saint being illumined by the light of Christ... and of course makes it possible to see the icon at night in an age without electricity. Same goes for the light of the Gospel, represented by the torches held near it while it's being read; the words of the Gospel illumine the peoples' hearts as they hear, which the torches symbolize, but the torches also had the initial purpose of letting the reader see the text; electricity comes, darkness is no longer a problem, but candles and torches stay out of tradition and to maintain the symbolism. Some day I want to add some iconography basics to some article, maybe the one on iconography, or some specific notes on the article with images of Jesus. Wesley 16:47, 21 Oct 2003 (UTC)

It looks like some interesting ideas are being discussed here. Could someone start including them in the article? I think that would help to further define what we want to see in the article and how it should be structured. Thanks! olivier 19:07, 21 Oct 2003 (UTC)

If the approach taken in the new paragraphs doesn't solve the old problem, I'd like to discuss alternative approaches. I hope the new direction lays a better foundation, upon which the issues alluded to by Wesley, for example, can be expanded and broken off into more new content and new articles. Mkmcconn 09:23, 22 Oct 2003 (UTC)

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