Category talk:Christian fundamentalism and evangelicalism

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[edit] Proposal for a new category(ies) on Christian fundamentalism and Christian evangelism

Hey, OSO, I told you I'd be back to you sometime, only it turns out to be sooner than later. I think we need a new category to capture Christian fundamentalism and Christian evangelism. This came up as I had originally tagged Hell house with Category:Charismatic and Pentecostal Topics and someone threw that off, noting Hell houses were not an exclusively Pentecostal phenomenon. I am inclined to agree; this sort of thing is not really tied to "Spirit gifts" type of thinking at all. There are a number of common-thread articles that I think a new category could pick up, including, aside from Hell house, Christian fundamentalism, Jack Chick, Fire and brimstone, Westboro Baptist Church (Topeka), what I might be tempted to call the "darker side", though I'm sure there are adherents proud of all the above. The big question would be whether to put fundamentalism and evangelism together, as in Category:Christian fundamentalism and evangelism, or whether to keep them separate as two categories, Category:Christian fundamentalism and Category:Christian evangelism. Obviously, in either scheme we could plug in Category:Television evangelists as a subcategory. Let me know whether you would be in favor of one combined category or two separate ones. Thanks. --Gary D 07:34, Oct 3, 2004 (UTC)

I have never, ever, heard anything like the Hell house until I followed your link above. I class myself as a Born again Christian but I am constantly amazed as to the stupid things that get associated with Christian faith. Sheesh!!!
By the way, I think the correct term is Evangelicalism rather than Evangelism. The former is a proper noun, the latter is a verb.
I think your idea is a very good one. I was the one who started category:Charismatic and Pentecostal Topics so I suppose I should expand this idea a bit further. Although I think Evangelicalism and Fundamentalism are different but related, I think they are closer together than Evangelicalism and Pentecostals/Charismatics. Your suggested Category:Christian fundamentalism and evangelicalism is probably a good starting point. If lots of information gets included and a disparity exists then it can be split into two quite esaily in the future.
In the spirit of Wikipedia, I hearby dub you responsible for creating this category! One Salient Oversight 10:02, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Your wish is ever my command, sahib...and the red link goes blue! --Gary D Copy: from User talk:Gary D
...Gary, I just popped in to say how wonderful your category:Christian fundamentalism and evangelicalism is. I had a quick check and it is looking peachy. Good work. One Salient Oversight 11:46, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Thanks much! I'm not sure it was worth exchanging four hours sleep for, but that's my choice. ... --Gary D 11:54, Oct 3, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Category is artificial

The grouping of Christian fundamentalists and evangelicals is an artificial grouping and should be split. There are some similar roots (as with many other Christian movements) but there are also major differences.

Note that the term "fundamentalist" has several different meaning, according to who is using it. The Associated Press recognises that the term "fundamentalist" is often used pejoratively and recommends that it be used only for groups that call themselves by that term.

The grouping can also be a propaganda tool. How do you get about classing Presbyterian or Methodist confessing movement people together with snake handlers? Is this deliberate? Actually there are a lot more categories here than two.

I see someone labeled snake handlers as fundamentalist - in my limited experience with these folks as a journalist in Appalachia, they were more apt to be Pentecostal. However, 99% of all Christians who would call themselves either fundamentalist or pentecostal would be quick to disassociate themselves with snake handlers. This grouping is a crock! --Pollinator 01:40, Oct 6, 2004 (UTC)

Poll, I realise that you may disagree with us about this issue, but I can assure you that this was not done for any ulterior motive or for propaganda purposes.
Both Gary D and myself know that categorization of these areas is problematic. In the absence of any other recognizable category we feel that it is important to be as broad as possible when defining what is evangelical and what is Fundamentalist Christian. I have already created category:Charismatic and Pentecostal Topics which covers that particular area. Since there is a natural crossover, some articles end up in both categories.
I think I understand your concerns over the use of the "Fundamentalist" tag. We're not using the tag in its current sense but in its historical sense. About 100 years ago there was a movement within the Christian church in America which called itself "Fundamentalist". The fact that these Fundamentalists disagreed with one another over what was actually Fundamental doesn't mean they didn't identify themselves in that manner.
Gary and I also decided that we would keep Evangelicalism and Fundamentalism together for this category. The Confessing movement is certainly not Fundamentalist (although their opponents would argue they are!) but they definitely live in the "Evangelical" category - hence they belong to the list.
I think if you are really concerned about the negative connotations of the "Fundamentalist" tag then we should perhaps place some form of explanation on the category page to make sure people realize that we are talking about is a historical term and not anything else.
One Salient Oversight 03:09, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I'm hoping that the discussions that led to creation of this category, now collected above, may also be useful. Beyond what OSO has said above, my intent in calling for and creating this category was to pick up into the categorization scheme the otherwise untagged articles I mention above and others in their area that didn't fit into the Charismatic/Pentecostal category. There is always a tension between over- and under-categorization, and in an often amorphous area like religion there can be difficulties of taxonomy and heavy overlap/duplication if the categories get too fine. When it comes to whether or not to split a category, I have tended to use size as a practical touchstone, figuring that categories containing a few score articles are the most useful to browsing readers. --Gary D 04:19, Oct 6, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Getting in on the ground floor: Yet another new category

In fact, Pollinator, this is your chance to get in on the ground floor with OSO and me, because I think we need yet another category, one to capture Local churches, megachurch, Transformationalism, Parachurch, Church Growth Movement, Cell church, G12 movement, and the like, which are not quite Pentecostal nor Evangelical nor Charismatic nor Fundamentalist. These appear to be a whole 'nother emerging new animule. What shall we do with them? --Gary D 04:34, Oct 6, 2004 (UTC)

There is a major problem in that there is a lack of a decent definition. I actually think "Evangelical" is probably the closest you can get even though I myself have a more conservative opinion of what the term means. How Contemporary church issues? One Salient Oversight 22:20, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I'm not crazy about the word, "issues" in a category name for the same reason I don't like the word, "topics"—it's sort of a throw-away word, as all categories contain topics and tackle issues. In the list of articles I give above, I notice that they all, aside from being Christian and recently contemporary (except maybe the beginnings of Local churches), concern forms of gathering that are different from standard church congregations—they're either larger or smaller, and organized along different lines. They also all seem focused on the notion of membership growth. I'm not far enough along in my thinking to propose a category title yet, but I wanted to throw up the above commonalities to see what it might spark or germinate in your thinking. --Gary D 01:04, Oct 7, 2004 (UTC)
OSO and Gary D, I appreciate your many efforts - just haven't said so as yet. Please forgive me. Gary, I too share with Pollinator the thought that putting in Fundamentalism (as folks commonly use the term today, not what it meant 100 years ago in a historical sense) in with Evangelicalism in the Category you have recently created is a bit tense for my taste - but, because I'm a charitable kinda person, I'm not complaining or anything.  :^))
To kinda defuse that, perhaps parachurch movement, contemporary evangelical church activities, or something similar might be a good way to break evangelicalism-related topics from fundamentalism-related (as folks currently use the term) topics. That way the "Snake handler," article, etc. could be out of the evangelical set of articles. That's just one that gets me the shivers - to think that students or researchers might lump my evangelicalism with the "Snakies!" (LOL) If we could add a category like that, it might better define the articles involved with evangelicalism - and then having them also in the Fund/Evan current new category would be less distasteful from my standpoint.
Additionally, a category for basically Christian Fundamentalism would allow the Fundamentalists who disdain, for example James Dobson appearing on "their" list to have a list more parochially their own. Maybe the Fund/Evan current new category would act as a "bridge" category where both groups "feel" comfortable in the same place together.
Finally, to address your very good thoughts Gary D, the new category could be called something like Contemporary alternative church movements because they don't readily "fit in" with other groupings, as you already noted.
Hope I'm making some sense here. I'm open to your thoughts. --avnative 04:27, Oct 8, 2004 (UTC)
Again the problem lies with strict definitions vs. narrow definitions. Dobson may not be loved by all Fundamentalists but others do. Moreover, the category I cooked up, category:Charismatic and Pentecostal Topics, contains a lot of articles that only represent a minority of views and certainly not the majority.
I think there will also be a great deal of crossover between categories. Contemporary alternative church movements will contain a lot of stuff from the Charismatic category, the Fundamentalist category and the Evangelicalism category. I prefer broad categories with very strict cut-off points.
I appreciate some people's views regarding the use of the term Fundamentalist but I think that if we have a clear definition of what the term means and doesn't mean then that should be enough. We're into writing facts here on Wikipedia, not trying to be nice all the time - and I say this as a Born-again Christian who holds some very "Fundamental" truths about the Christian faith. One Salient Oversight 05:04, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)


Avnative, thank you for your interest. Heck, the category delineations for the successor categories to the current combined one after a split are the easy part: "Evangelicalism" and "Christian fundamentalism" (or maybe "Christian fundamentalism and conservativism"). The tougher nut is making the decision to do the split and then more finely sorting each article into one or the other or both of those smaller category bins. I'll be honest, there were many articles I was quite comfortable throwing into the combined bin because I knew they were either one or the other but was glad I didn't have to decide which one of the two they were. If we split the category, we now have to go back in and make those sometimes quite difficult decisions. (Though there are some obvious and easy ones on each side of the line, as well.) My other concern was overcategorization that left only a few articles in each category, although that has become less of a concern as the current category has mushroomed to 93 articles; we're the victims of our own success, you might say. I am inclined to lean heavily on OSO's counsel in all this, as he is knowledgeable in the area and he may be required to pull the laboring oar on many of those tough re-categorization decisions.
On the other new category, I don't think "contemporary alternative church movements" as a title quite gets us there, because the sole qualification of a contemporary church being "alternative" is too broad--theoretically that would let in Church of the SubGenius and People's Temple, to use some silly examples. As I argue above, I think the new category title has to allude somehow to motivation for growth and also to novel non-congregational organization structures (all in a concise way, of course, LOL). I believe the killer title may be right on the tip of our collective tongue, however. --Gary D 08:37, Oct 8, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Okay, what about...

"Christian extra-congregational propagation" as a title for the proposed new category? --Gary D 09:43, Oct 10, 2004 (UTC)

  • After more thought, I've come up with "Renewal and growth within Christianity." This allows for newer expressions of Christianity, as well as cell groups, house churches, etc. without the difficulties my "alternative" earlier effort entails. But if you wish to exclude movements such as Willow Creek, Calvary Chapel, the Alpha Course and post-modernist churches now forming, your wording is fine by me. Your thoughts? (I'm still in brainstorm mode on this) --avnative 14:46, Oct 10, 2004 (UTC)
I don't know that I want to exclude any of them. I just get the feel as I look at that these topics that "something is up" in modern Christianity, something cohesive and of one particular nature. The problem is that I don't know enough about the individual topics to know which are properly included in that "something new" and which are properly excluded. I only have a vague feeling for it as yet. "Contemporary Christian growth strategies"? --Gary D 07:50, Oct 11, 2004 (UTC)
  • Or, hey - how about "Christian renewal and propogation" or even "Renewal and propogation within Christianity". . . Are we getting there yet? (A Bart Simpsonesque word pun) --avnative 14:46, Oct 10, 2004 (UTC)
  • How about two categories. Evangelical Christianity and Fundamentalist Christianity? Yes I am being deliberately rude here! I can't think of any other category that can do it and the ones suggested seem too narrow or airy-fairy for my tastes. This will allow a cross-over between categories. We can then have the basis for a bunch of categories:
    • category:Evangelical Christianity
    • catgeory:Fundamentalist Christianity
    • category:Charismatic and Pentecostal Christianity (to replace the current category)
    • category:Neo-Evangelical Christianity (eg Tony Campolo)
    • category:Progressive Christianity (those dreaded Liberal and Modernists!)
    • category:Reformed and Calvinist Christianity
    • category:New Christian Religious Movements (eg Fatima)
    • category:Christian Organizations (eg Focus on the Family, IFES)

One Salient Oversight 22:57, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)

OSO, we may be getting confused here about two separate topics we ended up discussing simultaneously here: The first is the split into two categories of fundamentalism and evangelicalism; the second is a new category in addition to those two, to pick up these other, very new movements and concepts. These two items aren't really related, but they got jumbled up together on this page. It was the latter item I was discussing in this section. --Gary D 23:46, Oct 10, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Status summary and call to action

Okay, here's where I think we are: --Gary D 07:18, Oct 14, 2004 (UTC):

[edit] Splitting fundamentalism/evangelicalism category into individual categories

I think we're all agreed that the category can be split, but I don't know if there's any hurry to split it right now, and there's the issue of who's going to do the work. I mean, Pollinator complained, then apparently split. I'm lazy, happy with the category either combined or split, and don't know the material well enough to be comfortable doing all of the finer recategorization. So the split is most likely to happen now or soon only if avnative or OSO takes the lead. --Gary D 07:18, Oct 14, 2004 (UTC)

Unfortunately my time is very limited. When I started with Wikipedia, I had retired. Now I've gone back to the working world and am working about 70 hours per week, leaving only the wee hours to check on what's happening here, and very little time or energy to work on it. I'll try to do a little. It really needs to be done. If there are to be categories at all (and that's another issue - why should the tinkerers be constantly trying to pigeonhole every possible viewpoint?), they should not be mishmashes, jamming together people and groups that would be quite uncomfortable with each other. Pollinator 06:29, Oct 31, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Adding a new category to capture the new Christian topics

Avnative likes my title "Christian extra-congregational propagation" for a new category but thinks it would logically exclude certain articles, and I probably want a title that does not exclude those articles. I'm lukewarm on avnative's "Renewal and growth within Christianity" title because it still strikes me as a bit too vague. OSO suggested multiple new categories, but ever fearing overcategorization I was hoping we could catch all this new stuff with just a single new category, since it seems like all these new topics have a lot in common. (However, I really like his proposed noun-reformulated form of the Charismatic/Pentecostal category.) Once again, I don't have a firm enough command of the topics to know for sure. --Gary D 07:18, Oct 14, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Call for an action plan

Okay, so where do we go from here? What do you guys want to do? On the new category, I guess we don't have to rush, we could noodle out the title some more, or just work on the articles themselves that will be included in the new category(ies) and figure something will come to us. OSO, are you attached to a multiplicity of finer categories? Pollinator, are you still out there somewhere and willing to pitch in? As they say in stuffy correspondence, everyone "please advise." --Gary D 07:18, Oct 14, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] The split appears to be underway

Check out Category:Christian evangelicalism. --Gary D 22:55, Oct 29, 2004 (UTC)

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