Talk:Chop suey

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What is in chop suey? I looked at recipes on the web that ranged from elbow noodles in tomato sauce to bok choy and soy sauce. What is this dish anyway? --rmhermen

I'm not sure. I know the name well enough though -- Tarquin


Contents

[edit] Deleted Gisling's contrib

[edit] Lian Qichao story

To Gisling:

Travel to the New Continent by Liang Qichao --- This might very well exist, could you please direct me to the website of the library catalog that carries it? I would love to read it. Right now, I do not doubt the book's existence, but I do doubt your summary of its contents.

1) There are a couple of things that make you additions specious. Here they are:

  • After that, "Li Hongzhang Chop Suey" restaurants sprung up all across America, there were three to four hundred Chop Suey restaurants alone in New York city

It seems unlikely that three to four hundred restaurants with the same name and the same cuisine would pop up in nyc all of a sudden. that would seem impossible - competition would be economically taxing on all of the restaurants.

You have no grounds in doubting Liang Qichao's account. Chinese restaraunts were mon and pop operation in those days, competion may be fierce, so what ? Equally fierce today. Lian Qichao's provided an important historical statistics about the status of Chop suey in America in the turn of 20th century. Unless you can provide counter document of same period. Liang's account stands as historical record. You cannot erase historical records. Gisling 15:35, 15 July 2005 (UTC)
Yes, but the precision of the account makes it suspicious. Also, the reference you provide is in Chinese, I can't cross check it to make sure you're not making this up, nor can any other English Wikipedian. Maybe your contributions are best fitted for zh.wiki. Moreover, you will see below that I've taken great care to go through your references to find that they contradict your Liang Qichao story. --Muchosucko 15:53, 15 July 2005 (UTC)


2) *"and there were three thousand people in America made a living by Chop suey, with business totaling several million dollars, "quite a remarkable industry" I don't know whom that quote is attributed to. Also, I question the accuracy of the numbers. America seems like a big place with many people, and economic numbers were hard to come by. please cite your source.

3) *Before that time, no American visited China town in NY

I doubt that -- somehow.

  • The origin of Chop Suey was well documented in the 《新大陆游记》 "Travel to the New Continent" written in 1903 by famous Chinese reformer, professor of literature of Tsing Hua Universty, Liang Qichao, who was also the author of the book "Biography of Li Hongzhang", hence Liang's account is authentic

In no way whatsoever does his fame make the account authentic.

You may argue what ever you like. You must provide turn of 20th century document to counter the account provided by Liang Qichao. Gisling 15:35, 15 July 2005 (UTC)
Well, simply being 20th century, does not make it gospel truth. If you notice on the bottom of this page, I've listed the contradiction of Lian Qichao's story with one of the references you've provided. Moreover, your document is in chinese, making it hard for English readers to verfiy. Perhaps your contributions are best fitted for zh.wiki. Also, you haven't addressed my concerns about the Liang Qichao I've taken great care to list above. Thanks --Muchosucko 15:50, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Alternative Armenian story

The weakness of your facts puts your entire contribution in jeopardy. Hence I removed it. Until some other wiki votes in your favor, our you can produce more solid proof -- that is.

You also deleted the following section:

  • The cook that started the idea of chop suey (based on a local Armenian dish) was Father Armeni, a clever young sous chef from Armenia. The hoopla about the visit makes all such claims doubtful, but Li Hongzhang's visit gave a boost to Americanized—largely Cantonese—cuisine. A rival claim for the invention of chop suey places it in California, where Chinese and Armenian cooks ran cooktents for American miners. Though in reality, it is a just a rebadging of an old Armenian dish.

I can't see why this story is any less (or more) authentic than your story.

The most important point, don't forget, is Chop Suey was Chinese Restaurant invention, not Amenian as you suggested Gisling 02:51, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for coming to the talk page. I have not forgotten that, but you have not addressed any of the points I raised above. Please do so.--Muchosucko 02:55, 15 July 2005 (UTC)


The earlist restaurant serving Chop Suey was Hong Far Low(meaning Red Flower Restaurant) in Boston in 1880's. There is a Hong Far Low Chop Suey menu on display at the "Chinese restaurant in America" Exhibition in Museum of Chinese in the Americas in New York. This 125 years old Chop Suey menu clearly proves beyong any doubt that Chop Suey was Chinese restaurant invention. You have absolute no evidence whatsovever to prove otherwise. Gisling 02:53, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

If you've actually read what I wrote above, you'll find that I have addressed another issue entirely. I am concerned about your story of Li Hongzhang. It does not follow logic. Please see my contribs above. Regarding the Armenian origins, I can propose the converse argument that you have absolutely no proof that it is not an Armenian invention. The sources you cite are not more credible than the Armenian ones. Thanks for replying. --Muchosucko 03:04, 15 July 2005 (UTC)
Edit: http://www.americaslibrary.gov/cgi-bin/page.cgi/jb/progress/suey_1 This website lists Li Hung Chang's visit to be 1896. If he invented Chop Suey, how did Chop Suey exist in the "Red Flower Restaurant in Boston in 1880's" -- as you say?--Muchosucko 03:09, 15 July 2005 (UTC)
Edit: [1] Further discrepancies arise. There seem to be competing answers to the origin of the dish. 1)mid 19th century Chinese laborers 2)Li Hung Chang’s cooks 3) the Toisan region of China (E.N. Anderson) 4) A Japanese cook appeasing a visiting general, . According to your references, the Ambassador story is far from fact, Wikipedia should not represent it as such.--Muchosucko 05:57, 15 July 2005 (UTC)


Can you reference any 19th century Armenian menu with Chop Suey ? Can you explain how " Chop Suey " was Armenian words ?
Again, that is not my argument I am concerned about your Li Hung Chang story and how it conflicts with the references you give. Please read my contributions above. Please stop ignoring them. --Muchosucko 15:06, 15 July 2005 (UTC)
You can doubt or argue any thing you like, I want you provide proof that Chop Suey was not Chinese but Armenian American invention (That is really a shameless white lie) Gisling 09:41, 15 July 2005 (UTC)


Again, you will notice that my concerns are not about the Armenian origins, please respond to my exhaustive reasons for deleting your contributions. Thanks for coming --Muchosucko 15:06, 15 July 2005 (UTC)



We should link outbound to settle it all. the following should probably be kept on instead.:

Muchosucko 28 June 2005 12:48 (UTC)

[edit] Deleted User:Muchosucko's contributon

Pure arguments, no facts. Chop Suey was clearly Chinese American invention. Gisling 09:23, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

Again, please see my position above. I am not aguring about whether Chop Suey was an Chinese invention or not. Please read my agrument above. You continue to ignore it. Please stop. I've written pages and pages explaining my reversions. --Muchosucko 15:15, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Continuous reverting

Muchosucko and Gisling have reverted each other's edits at least eight times today. Surely this violates WP:3RR on both of their parts? — JIP | Talk 16:18, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Chop Suey not originally from China?

What's the evidence that there was no such thing as home-cooked Chop Suey in Taishan and perhaps other parts of Guangdong before different restaurants in the U.S. claimed to have invented it? Is there really any proof that it was invented in the U.S.?

Michael 05:26, 27 Nov 2005 (UTC)

Chop Suey is invented in the United States (ref: History Channel documentary on American Fast Food), it is now known as Fried Rice (please confirm). I.M.H.O. You wouldn't find Chop Suey or Fried Rice restaurants in China. In Cantonese gourmet restaurants around the world you can find it but they are served as the final dish in banquets or dim sum lunches. It arrives in a big bowl and distributed in smaller servings. It is then followed by desert, sweet soup or fruits. It is not regarded as the main course but a "back up" for those who haven't had enough.

Calvin 17 Apr 2006

In Journey to the west, the word Chop Suey was used to refer to the internal organs, which means that the Chinese had used the word for some kind of assorted internal organs dish. The Chinese invented the name, but the cuisine is another story.

[edit] System of a Down Song

I've removed the reference to System of a Down's "Chop Suey!" from the art and literature section. Other than the title, it really has nothing to do with Chinese-American cuisine, plus it already has a disambiguation link at the top of the page. Also, the rest of that section is about early historical references. Perhaps the section should be retitled?

[edit] Missing info

This article nowhere states what chop suey is, which seems like a rather large omission.

(It does describe American Chop Suey, but that is a separate dish.)

Ken Arromdee 07:43, 29 May 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Recipe link

WP has become my recipe directory/search engine. And you can't manage an external link to a good recipe? Disappointed.--Shtove 22:47, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

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