Talk:Chitpavan Konkanastha Brahmins

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject India, which aims to improve Wikipedia's coverage of India-related topics. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page.
???	This article has not yet received a rating on the quality scale.
More information about this article... ??? This article has not yet received a rating on the importance scale.

Contents 1 Book on Chitpawan 2 Neutrality 3 Second paragraph of article utterly biased 4 Nathuram Godse 5 Article merge 6 Article name 7 Article Title needs to be restored to "Chitpavan Brahmins" 8 Alien origins 9 Konkani Wikipedia

[edit] Book on Chitpawan

I shall like to add that there is an excellent treatise called CHITPAWAN and written by N a. Go. Chapekar published in 1940 with second edition in 1968. The book an dauthor is also refered to in the book by Dr J Dixit Gopal Chaphekar

[edit] Neutrality

Article sounds biased.88.73.84.146 07:45, 2 October 2006 (UTC)lokkor

This is a horrible example of a neutral article. The bit about "blood and sweat" of marathas and hyperbolic claims is ridiculous!!! 59.182.87.240 08:23, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Second paragraph of article utterly biased

The second paragraph in this article is extremely biased against Chitpavans. Besides, it contains a number of spelling mistakes, non neutral POVs, and like someone else pointed out, hyperbolic statements like "on the blood and sweat of Marathas". The second last line should say "Chitpavan", not "Shitpavan". The reason that they are called Chitpavans is not obscure, it is a popular legend that is explained here:

http://www.kokanastha.com/htm/historg.htm

and I quote:

After committing the genocide of the Kshatriya's, Parshurama had committed worst kind of sin. In order to get salvation for this act he had make very large offerings to the Gods by prayers and worship (pooja). Parshurama was known for his legendary anger and capabilities, thus other Brahmins were not ready to be associated with his functions. Hence the prayers would have been without the official sanction of other learned Brahmins. As fate would be, at that very moment Parshurama saw 14 dead bodies floating in the sea. Parshurama purified the dead bodies on the funeral pyre and brought them back to life. These fourteen men formed the basis of 14 Gotra's of the Chitpavan Brahmins. Afterwards they were settled by Parshurama by reclaiming the land from the sea. In Sanskrit the rich language of ancient India, "Chita" - means pyre and "Pavan" means pure. Since the bodies were brought back to life on a pyre and were purified hence they would be called as CHITAPAVAN meaning those who were purified by fire. And since Parshurama was responsible for their new life, they would be brahmins like him.

I just wanted to let the community know of the changes I am seeking to do before doing them, as a matter of good etiquette. I shall change the second paragraph in a couple of days if no one else has any objection about it.

Gamercube 22:47, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

I see...this community would much rather base their origins squarely on the firm (?!) footing of legends and mythological hyperbole (Parshuram cleansed the 'earth' of Kshatriyas - three times over (!?), WOW :o) ), than on simple historical facts of a few dispossesed foreigners landing on Konkan coast (like Parsees and Jews - long after Vedic age) and following their fortunes, like other mortals. Apparently, that's not bombastic enough for the 'Shitpavans' (affectionately called :o)); they have to be raised from the dead and wait patiently for the Marathas and Deshastha Brahmins to create a Hindu nation and offer it to them on a silver platter (thanks to Shahu Maharaj) so they can squander it all - for a pension that they couldn't hold on to. That's not enough, they have to educate the rest of us mortal Hindus what 'Hindutva' is all about. Hats off to this brilliant cunning! No wonder they can't congratulate themselves enough for this feat. A self-congratulatory book 'Shitpavanism' is in the offing, to confuse simple matters further, with the DNA Mumbo Jumbo. Ironically, they also like to call themselves 'Kobra' (affectionately, of course.) In Marathi - language of the Kobras - there is a phrase, "Aayatya bilawar nagoba." It means a "Cobra lording over a den (not of its own making)." How apt?

RE: I have removed your edit to the Kokanastha article. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a place to post your personal feelings about a particular topic. Please do not add nonsense to Wikipedia. It is considered vandalism. If you would like to experiment, use the sandbox. Thank you. Gamercube 21:33, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

"Wikipedia is an encyclop(a)edia"; my point exactly. It's not an Indian 'Puran', nor a forum to engage in boasting. Please do not clutter it with nonsensical myths, legends and absurdly sweeping claims issuing thereof. You engaged in vandalism by removing my edit to the article. I knew you would :o). I did not remove anything from the article. I provided actual references to two historically accurate books by Manohar Malgonkar - a writer of highest integrity who writes in English. Late Mr. P L Deshpande - another literary giant - translated 'Kanhoji Angre' from English to Marathi, because he considered it an important historical work. Make history and facts the basis of your claims, not myths and (grandmothers' tales) legends. The British encounter should have taught, at least that, to Indians - especially the ones who so desperately try to project themselves as elites. Encyclop(a)edias are a product of an alien (western) culture. May be we should just stick to our Purans and Kurans. .... Amtey

RE: Firstly, as long as a myth, legend or whatever has a credible source in the form of another website, a book, a manuscript etc, they are all admissible in wikipedia. When discussing the origins of the Chitpavan community, it makes sense to include their version of events of where they descended from. I do not see any problem with this. As for your edit, you have provided sources in the second paragraph of the article. I have made no changes to it whatsoever. I only removed the extra para that you added because that paragraph did not cite any source, and was merely a bunch of random comments on how you feel about the Chitpavans. Even in the second paragraph there are a bunch of non-NPOV comments. For example, this one, "So it can be argued that, being only 'naturalized brahmin', Balaji Vishvanatha was an impostor and illegitimate for the post of Peshwa". What can be argued or not argued is not enyclopedia material. It can also be argued that if not for the Peshwas, then the Maratha kingdom would never have grown into the empire that it was from the tiny kingdom of Shivaji. However, I do not mention this in the article because it is my personal opinion, and conjecture is not encyclopedia matter.

Secondly, get a wikipedia account if you want to have any credibility as a member of the community. This also makes communication between members easier, so in case there is an disagreement about modifying an article, then I can post a message on your talk page etc.

Thirdly, I know that there are many Marathas and Deshastha Brahmins who just plain do not like Kokanastha Brahmins or are jealous of them. I hope you are not one of them, and if you are, then hopefully, you will not let your prejudices get the better of you. This article is not just about Kokanastha Brahmins, but a part of wikipedia. So if this article is biased, contains spelling errors or non-NPOV statements, then it compromises the quality of wikipedia. I hope you keep that in mind when you do any edits to this article.

Oh, and lastly, see the definition of Wikipedia: vandalism.

Gamercube 00:10, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

When Sudhan Kanitkar removed historically accurate account of the origins and 'rise to power (WOW!)' of this community, not a whisper of protest was heard. All Kobras are in cahoots when it comes to camouflaging their origins in the mist of 'grandmothers' tales'. Deshastha Brahmins are not jealous of Kobras, as alleged by Gamercube, just better informed. The ride from Peshwai-to-pension was so abrupt that historians are bound to dismiss it as a 'flash in the pan (easy come easy go).' The leaders they produced in the independence struggle were too clannish and provincial and were easily out maneured by Nehru, Gandhi.'

This most rational account of their 'rise to power' (read, acquisition of the rubber-stamp) was repeatedly expunged from the article by the Kobras. Therefore its reproduced here for record. Here it is:

...In fact there are several internal inconsistencies in the legendary and mythical claims made by this community. They apparently claim to have landed on Konkan coast (See, History & Theology) long after the Vedic age was over, like Parsees, Syrian Christians and Jews, and yet claim to be Brahmins. Only the direct descendants of Vedic Rishis are considered Brahmins. So at best they are 'naturalized brahmins.' Maratha kingdom was founded by Marathas (who claim descent from Rajputs, displaced by Mogul incursions in Rajasthan). The first individual from this community, Balaji Vishvanath, who was appointed Peshwa by Maratha king, Shahu Maharaj ( a weak drug-addict, however a descendant of The Great Shivaji) , was cleark in a salt factory and later, a cleark who supplied provisions to armies marching through Pune - both Maratha and Mogul - before he joined services of Shahu Maharaj (see, 'Kanhoji Angre' by P.L.Deshpande). Shahu maharaj was virtually blackmailed into presenting Balaji Vishvanath the investiture clothes of the office -traditionally held by the Pingale family (Deshastha Brahmin). In fact the office of Pant Pradhan (Peshwa) was open to Brahmins only. So it can be argued that, being only 'naturalized brahmin', Balaji Vishvanath's claim was questionable for the post of Peshwa. They enjoyed brief glory (1749-1818) as Peshwas - due to martial exploits of Marathas - before signing it off to British for a paltry pension. Even this pension was refused to them after Dalhousie's policy of 'lapse', as Nana sahib -the last of the line - was adopted. Nana sahib joined the mutineers of 1857, out of legal frustrations and was trying to negotiate a pension deal all the way to the end. They are now trying to connect their lineage with different successful brahmin castes of India like Bhumihar, Mohyal, Namboothiri etc without a trace of real evidence and relying solely again on myth and legend (See above).

[edit] Nathuram Godse

Good Grief - Nathuram Godse as an eminent Brahmin ! Might as well give honorary membership of the Chitpavan community to Hitler, Osama Bin Ladin and Bal Thakre

Dear Good Grief: Mr.Godse was a Maharashtrian Konkanastha Brahmin, and he was a prominent historical persona, perhaps(?!) for the wrong reasons.

Mr. Hitler, Mr. Bin Laden and Mr. Thakre were/are not KoBra, hence they do not qualify for this list.

Each of the above two is a fact. Wikipedia is a collection of facts, not politically correct version of history.

Try and get a perspective before spouting your prejudices...and for goodness' sake, get a user id on wikipedia and USE it.

asnatu 11:48, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Evidently, irony is lost on user asnatu - besides the lack of a sense of humor

uh...ok...whatever...

Did you get that user name yet? Or do you prefer hiding behind your IP?

asnatu 23:28, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

2/4/2006 - The list of prominent Chitpavan Brahmins is indeed eclectic, and somewhat weird as noted by the first interactor here. Savarkar is called 'Svantantraveer' or some such coplimentary moniker for that charlatan, who shouldn't be there in the 1st place along with Godse. Obviously, the interactor asnatu is somewhat defensive about his inclusion. Also, I noticed Pandita Ramabai is not listed there. Is the Chitpavan community embarrassed by her marrying a Shudra and converting to Christianity ? Her contributions to the general good certainly outweigh the contributions of 90% of the personalities listed. Now I am just waiting for a tirade from asnatu.

30/7/2006 - Nothing wrong whatsoever in refereing to Vinayak Damodar Savarkar as "Swatantryaveer". Infact I would even like Shri. Nathuram Godse to me refered to as Hutatma Pandit Nathuram Godse.

15/12/2006 - It took all of 'five attempts' for all these 'Veers and Hutatmas' to kill that poor old man Gandhi. This crowd was nowhere to be seen when General Dyer mowed down hundreds of innocents at Chillianwala baag. Udham Singh had to get to Michael O'Dwyer - Lieutenant Governor of Punjab - and brain behind Dyer's outrage, later. General Dyer retired comfortably in England. Our 'Veers' preferred easier targets like Gandhi and even that took them five attempts. 'Shri Pandit Hutatma' Godse was a tailor by profession. That's how he chose to employ his 'Panditya'- at a mindless spinning wheel. These 'Veers and Hutatmas' come across as 'teenagers playing at being patriots' and not the real patriots like: Nehru and Gandhi.

21/01/2007 - Whosoever you are, 1st thing I really feel sorry for you, since there doesnt seem to be much difference between you and cowards who hit wearing a mask since you dont even have the guts to tell your name. About your 15th December post, When the jallianwala bagh incident took place nathuram godse was 9 years old. Refer http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nathuram_Godse and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jallianwala_Bagh_Massacre. So that would be expecting too much from him. But considering that your above mentioned Gandhi and Nehru were all grown up and matured, what difference did they do to your role model Gen. Dyer. Atleast when nathuram grew up he was man enough to realise whats right and whats wrong and tried to make a change and was man enough to admit it to 360 million people of india. And its you who is grown enough to critisize others and is not man enough to tell your name.

In response to your 30th July comment, I dont know who gave them these titles but according to rules of Wikipedia, you are welcome to come up with a source which says that Nathuram Godse has a title of 'Hutatma' and we can add it.

In response to your 2nd April comment, no one is embarrased for the actions of Pandita Ramabai. Since you have the information about her I would invite you to add her name to the list. If you do not do so in 7 days from now I will add it myself. It just might have happened the various zealous users who created this page were actually involved in contribution rather criticism and they contributed to the best of their knowledge which obviously seems to way below your knowledge and still we dont get to see any contribution from you which I believe is waste of rich knowledge.

Sudhan Kanitkar.

[edit] Article merge

I noticed that there was another article called "Chitpawan" which was practically a subset of this one. So I took the liberty of merging the two, and making "Chitpawan" into a redirect to "Maharashtrian Konkanastha Brahmins".
All the best --Jorge Stolfi 03:22, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

The suggesstion to merge the article "Chitpavan" with "Chitpavan Konkanasatha Brahmin" seems pretty valid. However neither is a subset of the other and hence proper care would have to be taken while doing so. Although I have written a few articles on Wiki I am definately not an expert on it but I would read up the tutorial on merging pages and try to merge this article. Of course, other people would have a different opinion so may be I should wait for a month or so, where people can express there thoughts/opinions about the same.

Sudhan 21:00, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Article name

By the way, the name "Maharashtrian Konkanastha Brahmins" seems rather inappropriate. Would you consider renaming it to "Chitpavan Brahmin" or "Chitpavan Brahmins"? (Just "Chitpavan" would not be good; most English readers know what "Brahmin" is, but have no idea of what "Chitpavan" could be.) Ditto for the other "XXX Brahmins" articles.
All the best --Jorge Stolfi 03:22, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Article Title needs to be restored to "Chitpavan Brahmins"

I completely agree that the title of this article should be changed back to "Chitpavan Brahmins". Many new age Global Chitpavans do not appreciate being packed up as "Maharashtrians".

I strongly believe that whatever contribution they made to Indian History was not by virtue of them being Maharashtrians, but because they are "Chitpavans". It's not the question of a separatist attitude, but more of an identity issue. According to few DNA studies, Chitpavans are found to be ethnically and genetically quite a distinct community than other Indians/Maharashtrians. --Sachinjoshi 11:52, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

--You may give any title but please do not ignore that there is no concept of 'Chitpavan Brahmin' as such.Chitpavans became kokanstha brahmin due to sanskritisation.So use either chitpavans which is more a fact than a kokanstha brahmin.Anyhow it is upto you to use whatever you want.But better to keep in mind ground reality and not to boast beyond reason.

[edit] Alien origins

Reading the original introduction (since changed), one clearly saw two people writing this article. One - evidently, a Chitpavan, who might have a tendency to get carried away with non-verifiable myths and the other, a non-Chitpavan, who evidently harbors some antagonism towards the Chitpavans. This divide is one of many examples of how the land of Maharashtra has been bastardized of late. The introduction was changed because, to an outsider, this introduction would have appeared very, very inconsistent.

That the earliest Chitpavans were western foreigners cannot be doubted, even by their worst antagonists. The physical features of many of their descendants today and the historical differences in personalities and attitude from the local people of India, attests to that truth. They appear to have been western refugees or traders who arrived at the shores of India via the sea route probably in the early years of Islamic rule in the middle east, Phoenicia or beyond. Trade links with countries as far as Turkey and Egypt were established along the western seaboard of India since Roman times. St. Thomas the Apostle reached India in the 1st century CE via the sea route. The quoted DNA evidence bears out the south European (possibly south Slavic or Celtic) origins of Chitpavans. Could the article of the DNA research be provided as a link?

The story of bodies washed ashore along the Raigad/Ratnagiri coast and who were revived by Parshurama and assimilated as Brahmins most probably has its roots in some of these western refugees or traders suffering a shipwreck in the Indian ocean and some of the passengers being washed ashore. The original fourteen could not alone have multiplied within the community, as there would have been significant inbreeding resulting in the community dying out rapidly. The subsequent growth of the Chitpavan populace hints at further arrivals by the western sea-route into India. If myths are to be believed, then, as there is no further mention among their own myths of subsequent arrivals, one may assume that there was only one arrival, and the total number of people washed ashore might have been more than fourteen, and must also have included women. Myths have a tendency to get mixed up across numerous time periods and even across otherwise distinct cultures, and the Parshurama who converted these refugees to Hindu Brahmanism may not have been the same Parshurama Rishi who is mentioned in the Puranas. The story of the arrival of the Bene Israel community on the Konkan coast is an exact parallel a shipwreck with 7 men and 7 women being washed ashore, indicating some confusions among myths.

If we put together the two facts that the Chitpavans were a very dynamic community, and that they have gained prominence only in the 17th century CE, one can derive an arrival date of the Chitpavans anywhere between the 12th and the 15th centuries CE. The same pattern of western migration during this period is found among other communities along the western seaboard. Notably the Parsis into Gujarat and the Jews into the Konkan and Kerala, both of whom emigrated to escape Islamic persecution in their native lands.

Other communities whose physical features and mindset, and characteristics are distinct from the locals are the Saraswat Brahmins of Mangalore and Karwar and also the Kodavas of Coorg. This further supports the western immigration theory. The absence of any significant business acumen among Chitpavans indicates that they were probably not seafaring traders, but persecuted refugees. Intellectualism has traditionally run high among Chitpavans, indicating that the original immigrants must have belonged to some learned class among their own peoples. On the other hand, the acute business acumen among the Mangaloreans (the most well known among them today being Vijay Mallya) implies that these were a trading community, probably from among the lands of the Persian Gulf.

We should consider these simple facts about alien origins of many Maharashtrians. Many of the Maratha ruling aristocracy were themselves alien born. The greatest Maratha figure ever, Shivaji Maharaj was himself a Sisodia Rajput (in the 1600s, Rajputana was an alien land). Likewise, there can be absolutely no doubt about the fact that the Chitpavan are non-natives. Many other communities in Maharashtra, like the Chandraseniya Kayastha Prabhu community and the Saraswat Brahmin community, likewise claim foreign (north Indian, Persian or Kashmiri) lineage. The 96 Maratha clans similarly trace their origins to their Indo-Aryan warrior counterparts who once roamed all over central Asia and eastern Europe. For the last century or so, a significant part of the merchant class in Maharashtra, even in the remote interior parts, have been from Gujarat or Rajasthan, and increasingly. In the last decade, since 1995, Maharashtra's capital city of Mumbai and its surrounding districts of Thane and Raigad are fast being inundated with the excessively fertile communities of the north Indian Gangetic plain - modern Uttar Pradesh and Bihar.

Perhaps, we should just ignore our origins or keep them within our own communities, otherwise, we will only be hate targets. As ethnicities re-emerge in importance in the world and in India, one needs to be more careful and more mature.

Finally, it needs to be remembered that the name of one's clan or family only survives in spirit. The original genetic make-up has most likely undergone change beyond recognition. One's origins are not only to be found in one's family or local community, but all across India and even across central Asia. A better way is to look at the matter of origins as historical trivia and leave it at that. Not to associate it with the present, or to distinguish one's identity and create unnecessary divisions among our already divided people. The natives of Maharashtra, be they Brahmins or not, are equally to be appreciated for providing a peacable integration of the Chitpavans (and the other foreign communities) into their society. At the opposite end of the argument, any community that makes a claim of Chitpavans persecuting them historically, needs to take a look at Marathi history once more and they would identify the true persecutors as always non-Chitpavans.

The Hindu religion is particularly adept at creating every sort of division. Perhaps, as a people we would have been better off as Chitpavan Christians or Chitpavan Moslems. Indeed, some of our brethren, long separated from our ancestors in the mists of history, would today be Christians and Moslems.

Artaxerxes07 15:59, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

This article is mostly rational till the end and then it flounders... Its not too late to join the Christian or even Islamic faith even now. Those are proselytizing faiths. They will welcome all comers with open arms - you wont even need a Parshuram to smuggle you in :o). Just be careful what neighbourhood you choose: Shia or Sunni, Catholic or Protestant, because the consequences can be a lot more dire than merely being called 'naturalized brahmins'. :o)

The part "How to tell Chitpavan", in this article is copied from an article by Linda Cox.The original article is available for reference at this link. http://www.kokanastha.com/research/weekly01.htm Eiher she should be credited, or this part should be removed. Also this article needs to be merged with the other article on Chitpavans at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chitpavan

[edit] Konkani Wikipedia

Dear Konknni friends,

Konkani Wikipedia has been started and been in test stage since August 2006.

Kindly contribute towards the Konkani wikipedia. We intend to make it a multiscript

Wikipeida. At least tri-script with Roman ,Devanangiri and Kannada scripts since these are the most popular ones.

We would like to get more articles/templates in place. We also need volunteers to do the thankless and boring job of transliterating it to different scripts .

As of now only two members are making active contributions. The more the merrier. Your contribution is vital to its success.

The url is given below:

http://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Konkani_Wikipedia

Dev boro dees deum! -Deepak D'Souza 07:36, 27 February 2007 (UTC)