Talk:Chinese measure word

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[edit] general comments

Can someone add English translations? For people who can't read Chinese, the section on "three cars" would make no sense at all.

This is great, I've been looking for a comprehensive list and not just the 'top ten'.

I prefer to read traditional characters (that's how I learned) and suggest adding the tradional forms to the simplified forms where they differ. I hope there isn't an encoding issue, but I expect utf-8 can take care of that if need be.

I've done this. Chameleon 21:20, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I'd also prefer that usage notes also include some typical chinese terms that use the measure word in question, to make things completely clear.

'Measure word' is the term I know, and I would think among non-natives learning Chinese in a serious way, it would be more common than 'counter.' It appears the page for Chinese measure words redirects to this, when I'd expect it to be the other way around-- but that's just a nit.

Some indication of frequency of use would be helpful, for those of us slackers who don't want to master the whole set, but still prefer to use the more correct term in the common cases.

Dougfelt 22:10, 25 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Thanks for the suggestions; I'll be sure to update the article whenever possible. Also, this article was originally named "List of Chinese Measure Words", but was later changed to "Chinese counter" for reasons unbeknownst to me (although it is synonymous with MW, the usage is not at all widespread). -Taoster
The list is great - I need to learn these some day.
I have one proposal: the first column in the first table shouldn't have comments - comments should be reserved for column titled "comments". This means that the columns will be of equal width with the second table. If the columns were manually regulated (by use of the width parameter), that would work even better. Neonumbers 01:01, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

My textbook has bei1 as a measure word meaning "cup" or "glass", and ping2 meaning "bottle", as in "a glass of water", or "bottle of soda". Neither of these are in the table.

I don't know how we missed that one. I've added it. Chameleon 21:20, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)

The measure word with the meaning of fan (shan (扇)) for doors (and windows?) seems to be missing.

I think it would be a good idea to include some food senses of kuai (块), in particular loaf of bread.

When I've seen mile, it has been translated as English li, using the same character as for the Chinese unit (英里). i think the same is true of other English units. I don't think you have (ying) bang (英)镑 (pound sterling).

DJW

[edit] Move?

Move to Chinese measure word? --Jiang

[edit] literal meaning

A column should be added to show the literal meaning of the term before the major usage is introduced. For example, the word ba3 means a handful, which can apply to knife, scissors etc. Kowloonese 11:11, 18 Mar 2004 (UTC)

[edit] tradition chinese?

A column should be added to show the traditional chinese writing. Some characters means different thing in simplify vs. traditional writing. For example, the Simplified character zuo4 shown on this place means "sit" in Traditional Chinese, a different writing is needed for "seat" in TC.

Speaking of zuo4, the character used in the example "yizuo shan", 座, doesn't match the character used in the table. Someone who is more certain of their Chinese, please clarify or fix? —ajo, 1 Jan 2005
I've changed it to 座. My dictionary and my dad and the answers to my last Chinese test all reckon so. Neonumbers 12:24, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Your correction is good for Traditional Chinese. Is it also good for Simplified Chinese? Kowloonese 22:12, Apr 20, 2005 (UTC)
I learn Simplified Chinese, so I'm fairly (emphasis only fairly) certain about it. The dictionary the MS Word uses says nothing about classifiers under 坐, and I assume that it's up to date. In any case, I'm certain that 座 can be used in Simplified Chinese (thus my correction isn't "wrong"), whether or not 坐 can be. Neonumbers 12:30, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Regional usage

Cantonese in Hong Kong uses quite a different set of measure word though the majority are the same. For example, "yat gou fan" (a lump of rice), "yat pat ye" (a smear of gunk), "yat look muk" (a rod of wood) are very Hong Kong specific. I bet there are different usage in each dialect. This list does not show any regional usage.

Perhaps creating Cantonese measure word would be a good idea if you'd like to include region-specific words. -24.94.17.47

The information should be added to this page. Dont split unless necessary. --Jiang 05:51, 1 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Create a separate section at the bottom of this article for that. Chameleon 21:36, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)

In modern colloquial speech of certain Chinese dialects - What does "colloquial" mean in this sentence?

a.) a regional "slang" term, that is non-standard and not used in formal speech? i.e. its usage would indicate that the conversation was informal,
b.) or a regional term used in all sociolects of the given variety of Chinese (including formal speech), but considered "colloquial" because it is not seen in Standard Chinese (i.e. the written language)?

The second definition of "colloquial" would be very confusing for those who aren't familiar with the linguistic situation in China and should be avoided. For example, the word "係" hai6 (to be in Cantonese) would be considered a "colloquialism" by the second definition but not the first.

[edit] Unitary?

"Unitary"? What is that supposed to be? Is it intended to be a countable noun? One unitary, two unitaries? Never heard of it. They are called measure words or classifiers — nothing else. Chameleon 19:41, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] English slang in this article?

Why is English slang added to this article? e.g. under the monetary unit, a dollar is a dollar. What is the point to mention a dollar is also called a "sqid" and a "buck" unless it is used as a Chinese slang. Kowloonese 22:49, Apr 20, 2005 (UTC)

I think it's trying to say that 塊/块 kuài is a slang term, whereas 圓/元 yuán is the formal term. Kuài is used like the word "buck" is used in English. --Umofomia 09:17, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Table Format (changes summary)

A summary of my changes:

  • I regulated the width of the first two columns to 45 pixels and abbreviated "Simplified" and "Traditional" to "Simp." and "Trad.". I did this so that there is less space between columns, so the table is easier to follow, and looks better. I chose a width slightly wider than you'd expect to allow for those who put their browser on larger text sizes.
  • I removed notes from the first two columns and put them in the fourth. Where alternatives were given I made them two different rows ("A or B" -> "A", next row, "B"). Because the Chinese columns are on the left (as opposed to the right), I figure this won't make the table harder to follow. It also looks better (more regular).
  • Where two forms were given for Traditional, and one of them was the same as Simplified, I deleted the Simplifed. I realise (or figure) that whoever put them there did so because either is acceptable in Traditional(?). I deleted the Simplified so that the table would have more regularity. If pointing this usage is that necessary, we can always say so in the Main Use (fourth) column.

So it was basically layout I changed, to make it look better, sacrificing a few pedantic details or rearranging them. Hope no-one minds :-) Neonumbers 12:54, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I understand your goal to make the table look good. However, some information is lost when you changed some of the trad. usage. For example, 元 is both a Traditional and Simpilfied character and there are two ways to write the measure word in Traditional Chinese. These two pieces of info is lost in the new table. Kowloonese 23:12, Apr 21, 2005 (UTC)
Yea, I anticipated that someone would mind that. I added a new line in the fourth column in those ones (元 and 毛) that says "(either form can be used in Traditional Chinese texts)". I dunno if the wording's clear enough, but I don't want to get too wordy. Neonumbers 10:32, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Did you follow some kind of guidelines for the table width? I use a big monitor, so the tables appear quite narrow to me. The fourth column can use some more width in my opinion. But then you also have to consider users that have tiny computer monitors in low res. So the right choice depends on the lowest common denominator. What is the small screen used nowadays? Kowloonese 19:31, Apr 22, 2005 (UTC)
I only regulated the first two columns manually (to 45px). I think the table, before I came along, had a width of 50% and I didn't play with that so whatever screen res you have, big or small, the table'll be half the width of the window you're looking at (or half the width of the window minus the sidebar). It also means that if you resize the window, the table gets thinner (or fatter) too.
I reckon the smallest res around is 800x600. 640x480 died out a while back - my monitor won't even do that for me. But I think using relative-to-width might be better, maybe 75%? See what you think. Neonumbers 11:37, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] measuring Unit names vs. measure words

I have watched this article evolved. When multiple authors touched it, the definition shifted. To my understanding Chinese measure words are different from unit names. This article mixes the two together.

For example, 時辰 is a unit of time. I am not very fluent in Mandarin. But I think the proper way to use this unit is to say 一個時辰. 個 is the measure word. 時辰 is just a noun, like "bird". No one says 一時辰. I am from southern Chinese, but I've never heard people say 一鐘. Cantonese says 一點鐘 for one 0'clock and 一個鐘頭 for one hour. Again 點 and 個 is the measure word, 鐘 is not. We say 一分鐘, 一秒鐘, 一刻鐘, but we never say 一小時鐘. We say 一元 or 一塊 for one dollar, but 一塊 is actually the abbreviation of 一塊錢. So 塊 is a measure word. But no one ever say 一元錢, so 元 is a true unit, not a measure word. Another example is 一里, which is actually an abbreviation of 一里路. 一年 is actually an abbreviation of 一年時間. Same argument can also apply to everything listed in the True unit section. They are all confusing lying between "unit" and "measure word".

The article says

Some measure words are true units, which all languages must have in order to measure things, e.g. kilometres. These are displayed first, then other nominal classifiers, and finally verbal classifiers.

Is this statement really true for the Chinese language? The ultimate question is whether "True Unit" fit under the title of this article. Are "True unit" names really measure words in the sense of 量词???

Kowloonese 23:12, Apr 21, 2005 (UTC)

I agree with Kowloonese, though admittedly I'm less qualified to comment on the matter (English is my first language and my Chinese is only secondary because of descent). And, the dictionary says they're all nouns. Neonumbers 11:42, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)
After a year of my orginal comment, my argument still stands. It is not right to mix measure word and unit in the same article. Anyone besides Neonumbers want to comment on the current structure of the article? Kowloonese 23:11, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] use "classifier" not "measure word"

The correct linguistic term is "classifier". If you look on the respective pages for measure word and classifier, you'll see that -- to the extent that these terms are differentiated -- the term "measure word" is incorrect for Chinese. Benwing 03:55, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Proliferation of Phonetic Spellings

I think that the addition of another phonetic spelling column to the table, by anonymous users User:137.189.4.1 sets a bad precedent. If one then adds Shanghaihua, Hokken, Wade Giles, etc. the table will become too wide for sensible reading. Wikipedia tables aren't database tables; they are supposed to be human readable.

Now that the precedent is set, I can see every regional minority in China and the Chinese diaspora wanting to add their own column.

I would certainly be happy if that column were dropped. Given that this page is in the English language Wikipedia, I feel that it is necessary to have one Romanisation, and as PinYin is the most widely used one, I feel that that was the right one to retain.

--David Woolley 09:45, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

Further investigation shows that Pingyam is a Cantonese term. It appears to be a generic term, as the second Google hit says, at the bottom, that Yale is used in that page. Yale seems to exist in several versions, for different Chinese dialects, so what is being referred to here is the Cantonese variant of Yale.

I'm less unhappy about Cantonese, given its large use outside CHina, than I would have been for lesser known dialects, but I still feel that it is setting a dangerous precedent. I've just increased the table width because there wasn't enough room to display usage examples well, but that space is being lost again.

I've changed Pingyam (currently broken) to Cantonese (Yale) to be consistent with the English speaking world's terminology.

If people want to promote the term Pingyam, I think the right thing to do is to add a note to the Cantonese (Yale) entry, and just possibly create a re-direct entry from Pingyam to that entry, although it would be a good idea to confirm that it doesn't have a generic meaning, first.

--David Woolley 10:42, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Measure words for confirmation

Could any native speaker confirm that 针 is a measure word, possibly needleful and possibly injection dose. The original expression that makes me think it is is "打一针" and googling 两针 produces a 63500 hits, some neeldework related, some apparently about slimming injections. However my dictionary doesn't give a measure word sense.

--David Woolley 18:49, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

I will count that as a measure word. For instance "打一針肉毒桿菌" (have an injection of Botox). -- G.S.K.Lee 10:29, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Xīe not mentioned

Is there a reason why xīe (些) is mentioned in the examples section but not listed as a measure word? It seems odd to use it and mark it in green but to not list it.

些 is NOT a measure word. -- G.S.K.Lee 15:21, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

then the last entry in the examples section is inappropriate for the article and should be removed Meteorswarm 06:21, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Removed. 一些 = some in English, but there are no expressions like 二些, 三些... Hence it cannot be called a measure word. -- G.S.K.Lee 09:39, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

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