Talk:Chinese astrology

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[edit] an interesting question

I was born in January 1980. It's said that 1980 was the Year of the Monkey, but the Chinese New Year didn't start until mid-February, so would that technically mean I'm actually a sheep? Both descriptions fit me really well personally, but if I was truly to be one, which would that be? I hope I don't start anything, but I've been wondering about this for some time. My email is kjclass98@ yahoo.com if you wish to answer there. Thanks. ChrisRJ 14/3/07 2:15am PST

[edit] Countries

Somebody please explain how the list of countries was determined. It seems awfully wrong for just about every sign!

I repeat in the same manner the same question. For example, on which basis it has been assumed, that Italy is a Horse country? That country has been ever assumed either as a dog or a dragon! Klava76

[edit] Chinese Hours

Oh, I guess the shichen is not called like 'rat', 'ox' etc, but rather 'zi', 'chou', 'yan', 'mao' etc...Am I right? --yacht (Talk) 05:05, Dec 19, 2003 (UTC)

Yeah, not sure where that correspondence is from. That guy also put it in Earthly Branches. --Menchi (Talk)â 06:03, 19 Dec 2003 (UTC)

The common names of the twelve shichen are "子, 丑, 寅, 卯, 辰, 巳, 午, 未, 申, 酉, 戌, 亥"; 子時 begins at 11:00pm in the modern clock. Each shichen can also correspond with a sign in the Chinese zodiac, although as far as I know this is not done very often.

References:

--Glenn W 01:06, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] You're famous!

"Happy Chinese New Year" (Coeur d'Alene Press, United States, January 22) Sholeh Patrick recommends wikipedia's Chinese zodiac if you want to know more about years of monkeys and rats, and so on.

[edit] Incomplete Table

In my opinion, the table is of little use if it does not include recent years.--Feitclub 02:50, Feb 26, 2005 (UTC)

The table has two sets of "begin & end" columns, and includes years from 1900 to 2020. (It could certainly stand to be reformatted to make that clearer.) DenisMoskowitz 16:37, 2005 Feb 28 (UTC)

This article should be merged with Sexagesimal cycle. - ChongDae

Table of the lunar calendar and zodiac? I could be confused but this table looks like 2006 is the year of the rooster, every one else thinks it is the year of the dog.

The year of the rooster was from Feb. 9, 2005 to January 28, 2006, so only the first four weeks of 2006 are part of the year of the rooster. The year of the Dog is January 28, 2006 - Feb. 17, 2007. Chinese New Year is not the same day as Western New Year, and the change is by the Chinese New Year Nik42 04:05, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] discrepancy

I might have found an error. On the Chinese constellation page, it say the constellation (斗 pinyin:dǒu), literal translation "dipper," is actually nearest to Sagittarius in the western sky. Sagittarius is Ra 19h, dec -25°. On this page, it says, "For example, the big dipper (Ursa Major) is known as 斗 dǒu." However, Ursa Major is Ra 10.67h, dec 55.38°. The Chinese constellation dǒu can't be both Sagittarius and Ursa Major, right? Whoever knows what they're doing and can verify one or the other can fix it, because I'm not sure.

(previous was from User:Dauvm and unsigned)

I think there are actually two dippers in the Chinese sky - I've got some documentation on this at home. I'll try to check it out tonight.DenisMoskowitz 14:34, 2005 May 9 (UTC)

Two dippers in the east asian astrology are: "北斗七星"(north-dipper-seven-star), the big dipper in Ursa Major, and "南斗六星"(south-dipper-six-star) in Sagittarius (ζ, τ, σ, ψ, λ, μ). There are two more. east-five and west-four. But the last two are seldomly used. -- ChongDae 10:01, 26 May 2005 (UTC)

Perhaps this should include the story of the 12 animals and how they raced towards.... something.. to attain their status as the 12 animals... and also their order.

Those are both already included at the top of the Chinese Zodiac section. --DenisMoskowitz 12:12, 2005 July 24 (UTC)

[edit] About the element of one year

The Element column of Table of the Lunar Calendar and Zodiac are somewhat misleading. Element list there are of the Heavenly Stems of the year. One year indeed is associated with three elements, one is of its Heavenly Stems, one is of its Earthly Branches and the last one is called 纳音 na yin. The last system is invented later and is not recognized by some astrologers. But the other two systems are equally important. --Purpureleaf 04:39, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] No reference to neither inner or secret animals

This article is very incomplete and lacking without the understanding of the combinations of profiles.

5 elements - 12 animals - 12 months - 12 times a day (equals 8640 combinations)

I removed all the links as well as they were all stupid westernized crap, most of them used the wrong calender for allah's sakes and didn't even mention the elements, inner or secret animals. This page needs to conform to a higher standard instead of the crap westernized astrology which is mostly hocus pocus.

so much mess, I think I've done enough for one day. The info on the animals themselves is a mission on itself

[edit] Much better now - Now the animals

Now we should move on to standardizing all the animals and elements to not suck like this article did with crappy western influence

Thanks for doing all this! With so much to take into consideration when, could you provide some non-Westernized sources?

[edit] The Months

The relation of animals to months has been edited and changed back all too many times in this article. The single external source claims that January is the month of Ox. However some editors seem to believe that January is actually the month of Rat and so they constantly shift the entire calendar by one sign. This starts to look like an edit war. If anyone knows of other (perhaps more reliable) sources that would say someting about this "inner animal" stuff, please drop in some references here so we could check them and finally reach an agreement on the subject. Prickus 13:06, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

Edit wars to whichever version were both incorrect! Lunar months don't correspond to the Julian/Gregorian solar months for starters, and the first lunar month is actually the Tiger (cited link at bottom, plus cross referenced with a rather old Chinese astrology to check validity). Have made a nice table to reflect this. Jonathan Stanley 20:50, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

Blah! Both those edits happened whilst I wasn't logged in... Jonathan Stanley 20:53, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

Glad to see this one finally corrected! Now, taking into account that these are actually lunar months, a practical question arises: how can one calculate what is the lunar month of his/her birthday in order to figure out one's inner animal? Prickus 16:47, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

I have seen online tables that relate the solar terms (yushui, etc.) to dates. Maybe it would be a good idea to put those into the table, but I have no understanding whatsoever of html (or any markup, for that matter) tables. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Orngjce223 (talk • contribs) 21:54, 16 December 2006 (UTC). Oh, oops. ~user:orngjce223 how am I typing? 21:54, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

I updated the table in 'The Months' to link each 'segment' to its corresponding Wiki article, each of which contains the approximate date conversion for the segment. mpbx 09:10, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Dodecimal Zodiac in the calendar of Turkic peoples like the Uyghurs

http://www.eurasianhistory.com/data/articles/a02/1238.html (previous posted by User:Bestlyriccollection) (large Chinese article removed)

Bestlyriccollection, it's not useful to dump a very large non-English article into English talk pages. Most editors here can't read it, and as far as I can tell it's just the same content as the web page you've linked above. If there's something specific you'd like us to get out of it, please translate. DenisMoskowitz 19:54, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Typos

I suppressed a repetition of the verb "to be" in "The Twelve Animals". It originally read "each individual personality is is associated". And I also corrected a typo in "distinctively" at the end of the paragraph.

Askorahn 16:21, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 18th and 19th century calender

I would like to add columns for the 18th and 19th century - to find the signs of not only living people, but historical figures as well. Does anyone know where to find a source for the 18th and 19th century? --Stbalbach 23:41, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

If you find them, I'd suggest you link to them rather than making the already large table even larger. DenisMoskowitz 18:26, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Animal's Race Copyrighted?

I'm a newcomer here, but I think that you put a literal and extensive transcription of the content of the link Legend of the Chinese Zodiac by Audrey Lim, cited in your article, without quotes or something like. This don't means a copyright violation?

[edit] Celebrity lists

I removed the list of celebrities from Rat (zodiac) (see the talk page), and I think the lists should be removed from the other animal articles too. Presumably every celebrity or notable person who ever existed falls under one of the twelve categories, so I think decisions about who gets included are inherently arbitrary and poorly defined. And I don't see what value such lists add to an encyclopedia. Wmahan . 04:47, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Well said. DenisMoskowitz 20:43, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. I haven't followed through with the change because someone objected at Talk:Rat (zodiac) and I don't want to remove the lists unless there is a consensus. Wmahan . 02:29, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

The lists are useful inasmuch as they provide some data for falsification. Say, you were born in the year of the Rat. You can check for other people born in the year of the Rat. If you find you have something in common with them, you can decide Chinese astrology is for you; in case you don't, you can spend your time otherwise.

There's nothing unfactual about these lists. If you simply don't like categorizing people, I suggest you make a case for removing every single "List of famous/well-known ..." article on the Wikipedia. The fact that every single celebrity was born in a 12-year cycle does not undermine its credibility. While we're on the issue of astrology, every single person was born in one of 12 months (according to most calendars) as well. More generally speaking, so few things really distinguish us Earth-born homo sapien sapiens that something like Chinese years don't hurt anyone. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 195.93.60.39 (talk • contribs) 2006-06-24 08:53:50 (UTC).

There aren't any lists of celebrities at the western astrological sign articles: see Sagittarius (astrology) for instance. DenisMoskowitz 22:44, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

I thought it was clear that I wanted to remove the lists because they don't add any value to an encyclopedia article, not because I "simply don't like categorizing people". No, the lists don't hurt anyone, but I think they detract from the articles' quality for the reasons I gave. Mere factuality is not a sufficient reason to include the lists. And there are many different ways to categorize people: by name, year of birth, year of death, ethnic or national origin, occupation, religion, se x, location, and on and on. Wmahan . 05:24, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] it seemed strange-

<!- -doesn't the earth govern 3 animals like the others?- -> k zz* 19:30, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

I'd just like to add that the vietnamese zodiac 12 animals are simular to the chinese zodiac animals. However, instead of the hare/rabbit it is replaced by the cat.

The story goes that the cat and the rat rode on top of the ox during the race,(cause they couldn't swim) and the rat pushed the cat into the water later, letting the rat take first place, ox second, tiger third and cat fourth. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 58.108.13.212 (talk • contribs) .

Concerning the question: I would like to say the following

1. Earth "governs" Ox, Dragon, Goat, and Dog. 2. But Ox is part of the Chinese winter, when Water is strong; Dragon is part of the Chinese Spring, when Wood is strong; Goat is part of the Chinese Summer, when Fire is strong; and Dog is part of Chinese Autumn, when Metal is strong.

[edit] Chinese Gender Calendar

Is this really Chinese? Chinese Gender Calendar. Does anyone in China actually use it? Where did it come from? All I can find are site like babynames.com. If someone who speaks Chinese could search Chinese websites it might be a help. -Ravedave 01:06, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Expanding External Link

how about adding a link in the external link section that gives information from the origin of chinese astrology to individual animals Characters & more. the link is http://www.astrouniverse.com/ChineseAstro.php Avenash

It's fine if any established, neutral editor wants add the link. But since you have a direct interest in the site, and you have been adding it to many articles in an apparent attempt to promote it, I have removed it. Promotion of your own website is not allowed; please see Wikipedia:External links. Wmahan . 17:46, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] What is this?

http://www.kunstkammer.dk/OstindiskeGB/genstande_ostindiskeGB.asp?ID=201

I presume it is somehow related to Chinese astrology, and, since it is the Kunstkammer (collection of wonders) of the Danish kings I thought you might want to use it as an external link, presuming it is relevant.

I note too that the original text which accompanied this articles was: "Chinese boxes for soothsaying" (2 Chineische pyxides til Sortilegia) Considering what most people consider to be "Chinese boxes" I thought that was rather interesting.

It's almost certainly a Lo P'an, a geomantic compass used in Feng Shui. DenisMoskowitz 20:24, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] What is the 13th (leap) month called?

The month table lists the first 12 months, but not the leap month. What is it, and its segments called? Also, which sign is this month assigned to?

I want to know that, too! I can't believe nobody here knows the answer. :-( —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 87.187.118.199 (talk) 17:31, 7 December 2006 (UTC).

I think that the leap month has no segments and is assigned the sign of the month before.~user:orngjce223 how am I typing? 22:08, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Took out inflammatory irrelevancy

One of the sign descriptions included something about how Japan and Germany, ruled (apparently) by the Dragon and the Rat, respectively, were responsible for great atrocities including the holocaust. I removed it as inflammatory and irrelevant to the topic. Nagakura shin8 15:03, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

I think the original author was trying to explain the part about how the First Trine is capable of great good and great evil and so pointed out that Japan and Germany, nations governed by the Dragon and Rat, respectively, were causes of world war 2. I think he/she was trying to show the rough characteristics of the signs, the Rats exclusive, rigid, and brutal side and the Dragons imperious and arrogant side. WHen I first saw it, I just thought it was irrelevent and quite sensitive. It's nothing that rat persons or dragon persons can be particularily proud of and it was just not relevent. Glad you took it off. VeronicaPR 06:28, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't think the Chinese zodiac started out rating countries by their "signs". For one thing, how does one determine Germany to have a "Rat" sign? The date of the country's "birth"? That is subject to historical interpretation. Does anyone have a credible source for designating Chinese zodiac signs to countries? tess 20:49, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] some cleanup suggested?

This article has very awkward wording at times and is generally difficult to follow. This includes grammar and presentation of ideas.

[edit] The Symbols?

Why do the charts in this article use the normal animal symbols (鼠,牛,虎,兔,龍,蛇,馬,羊,猿,鶏,狗,猪) instead of the zodiac symbols (子,丑,寅,卯,辰,午,未,申,酉,戌,亥)?--Sotaru 05:33, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Why have you only used 11 zodiac symbols when there are 12 animals?

[edit] Disrepency between elements and animals.

The lunar year beginning Feb 18, 2007 is the year of the golden pig. The page however current lists it as the year of the fire pig. There is something wrong with the element-animal chart. Do a search for gold pig 2007 in chinese to find sources. Also, it is possible to search the news for a disproportionate amount of people taking maternity leave in China because it is considered lucky to have a child in the year of the gold pig. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.95.123.6 (talk) 18:08, 22 January 2007 (UTC).<! -- HagermanBot Auto-Unsigned -->

Response I think I understand what you are saying, as well as the part of the article deemed "confusing." see the elements, as listed, are only the Heaven elements. In China, the heaven elements must be mixed with the earth element to find the true element being used. The heaven element is determined using a cyclical pattern (every element goes two years in a row in the heavens, and note that this whole theory is just an educated guess, but ive seen this pattern) and the earth element is designated by the governing element of the animal whose year it is. somehow, certain element combinations yield completely different elements (as the person who wrote the "confusing" part tried to point out, in the year 1960, the heaven element was metal, while the earth element was water, the governing element of the rat, so somehow, metal+water=earth, I dont understand how all this would work, since all my calculations are merely speculative, but i believe they hold some credence, at least). So 2007 is not the year of the fire pig because fire is the heaven element, and metal is probably the earth element, since fire+metal=gold maybe? Note, all of this is purely speclative, dont quote me as a knowledgable source.

there is also thigs called the Four trines

[edit] Animated Chinese Zodiac Zone

Would it be OK to put a link to this resource about the Chinese Zodiac on the main page of this article?
[1]
It has been designed for users of English as Second Language and has an interactive Zodiac sign finder, Chinese Zodiac Magic game and Zodiac English idiom quiz, as well as free posters.
My company designed it, that's why I'm putting it to you to find out if it's possible.

Thanks
Ady1234 Feb 12.07

Your site is real cute. But I'd like to point out Wikipedia is not a web directory. (See Wikipedia:Five pillars). I know, a lot of people ignore that fact. No one can't tell you what to do. Just be aware that it can be removed at any time at the whim of anybody. tess 21:06, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Trogdor? Bunni Wabbit?!!?

Come on - shurely shome mistake! The Months section has some very dubious text in there - Oxi-Clean for the 12th month? Can someone with more knowledge please check this! Thanks :)

StuartCarter 16:16, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Secretive Animal

Is your secretive animal decided by the hour you're born in in local time or chinese time? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.140.73.113 (talk) 18:49, 17 February 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Heaven vs Combo elements?

Could we expand/clarify the info on Heaven and Combination elements? I couldn't find out (here or elsewhere on the web) what the two terms mean. If both are listed for each year, which one is predominant? Thanks! SvetaOhio 03:34, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

The Heavenly Stems elements are well documented in another artile. However, can someone quote some references (Chinese source is fine too) to this Combination elements? What is it called in Chinese? Google search didn't come up with much info. 75.31.100.140 01:22, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Table of the lunar calendar and zodiac

This section is confusing, specifically the paragraph after the first table. That paragraph is difficult to understand due to poor grammar (probably because the author's first language isn't English). Also, if the paragraph is true and the first table does have some "misunderstanding of concepts", then surely that means that table is wrong and needs to be adjusted accordingly? Wolf ODonnell 21:27, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Bozilla 23:43, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree, the section attempts to explain why Feb 18 2007 - Feb 6 2008 is the year of the FIRE pig but at the same time is widely regarded as the golden pig.

Actually it IS the year of the fire pig. In fact Fire and Gold are used interchangeably as deemed necessary in Chinese culture. I grabbed this snippet from the following source

http://www.seoulselection.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=3897&sid=9bf86fdad404edd19abcd3cdf5d26e36

"Fire is red or yellow, and this is associated with gold; in China, for example, red is considered a lucky color, and money is traditionally given in red envelopes. Accordingly, the Year of the Fire Pig becomes the Year of the Golden Pig. This occurs only one every 60 years, and is considered a particularly auspicious time to have children."

I'd like to find out if there is a more scientific (?) method of determining when fire is just fire and when fire is gold? There is extensive literature about this period of time (Feb 18 2007 - Feb 6 2008) being a yin fire year meaning the "fire" is more muted an in harmony with the other elements. Fire over water is often mentioned.

We still haven't addressed the issue mentioned by Wolf ODonnell above — the two tables contradict each other. We need a better explanation on the whole thing, not just about fire pig vs. golden pig. --tess 20:34, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Ok, first off, the second table is definitely right. Secondly, I think i understand the combinations, although im working purely on an educated guess (i posted previously up above on my theory.) See, the heaven element combines with the earth element, the heaven element derived from a cyclical pattern (yang element 1, yin element 1, yang element 2, etc.) while the earth element derives from the animal. I believe that the phenomenon of "Gold" comes in when water and fire are the combo elements, but only if water is the yin element or fire is the yang. More on this as I look at the work presented here. As an addendum, this site [2] is helpful

Perhaps its best if the first table is removed. --tess 19:14, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

see main article for years 1804 - 1923

(where is this data table?) It would be nice if we could go as far back as possible; e.g.,

Chinese       Animal      Balance      Element    Gregorian        Julian
7888          Tiger       Yin          Fire       Jan 11, 1492     N/A
7000          Dog         Yang         Water      N/A              Jan 15, 1942

Please note: these are not accurate, just to give you an idea. 1645-1899 and Calendars (Discussion of Stem/Branch or Element/Animal)

--MonteShaffer 16:49, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Chinese characters for the signs of the Zodiac

The characters used in the article are those of the actual animal in question. There are distinct characters used for the zodiac signs that are in general quite different from those of the animals:

Rat: 子
Ox: 丑
Tiger: 寅
Rabbit: 卯
Dragon: 辰
Snake: 巳
Horse: 午
Sheep: 未
Monkey: 申
Rooster: 酉
Dog: 戌
Pig: 亥

I have never seen the actual animals' characters used in any Chinese or Japanese calendar that incorporates astrological information or any book on the Chinese zodiac for that matter: only these characters ever seem to be used. This article is the only source I've ever seen that uses the animal characters. I am not sure why this is so; I'll do some further research and make the appropriate changes once I know the reason. Stormwyrm 17:50, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] South Hemisphere

Here in the south hemisphere the seasons of the animals and the elements that governs the animals are the same of the north? For example, the article of Rabbit says the month is March and the season is Spring (as a result, wood governs rabbit), but here march is Autumn. So rabbit is governed by metal in the south?

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