Talk:Chinese Filipino

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[edit] Unsigned first talk

The "Chinese Mestizos" you wrote aren't really MESTIZOS. They are Filipinos of FULL Chinese descent, meaning they are 100% full blooded chinese, but Filipino by nationality. Kris Aquino is the ONLY Chinese - Mestiza on the list. Jose Rizal and Cardinal Sin are Chinese - Mestizos.

And a correction. The term Chinoy does NOT only reffer to the Chinese - Mestizos, but also to the Filipinos of FULL Chinese Descent.

I corrected part of the complaints above (although not sure if everything's been taken care of). I also made the Chinese mestizo part shorter as a lot of things written are the same as those in the Mestizo article. I just provided a link instead. -wng

[edit] Chinese Filipinos imigrated to the US, Mexico

Some Chinese Filipinos imigrated to the US, Mexico, etc. during the Spanish colonization and onboard the Galleons. Its just that they were considered Chinese and not filipinos. --Jondel 02:37, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)

During colonial times, the word 'Filipino' meant Chinese to some Mexicans. I can dig info to get the source if anyone wants to research this.--Jondel 09:50, 2 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] List of Chinatowns

Why doesn't anybody list Binondo of the Philippines here? Is it OK if I go ahead and do it?--Jondel 08:21, 2 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Gringo Honasan

Studied in Taipei during high school. Is he Chinese? He can speak Chinese.--Jondel 03:53, 19 August 2005 (UTC) He is a Filipino of Chinese descent.

[edit] Question

"A full-blooded Chinese who can no longer speak Chinese and no longer practice Chinese culture or beliefs is more often than not identified as a Chinese mestizo. By the same token, a Chinese mestizo who still speaks fluent Chinese and practices Chinese culture might be reintegrated into the Chinese Filipino culture. As "mestizo" often evokes a person of higher social strata, there is also a tendency to not identify those in the lower class as "mestizo" even if they are in fact of mixed descent."

I tried searching for reliable sources regarding this statement, but I have seen none. based on personal experience, a Chinese who no longer speaks Chinese or is very much assimilated to the Filipino mainstream culture is NOT labeled as "Chinese Mestizo", but as Pinoy even he is of full Chinese descent.

This is true. There are many filipinos of pure chinese descent who are no longer considered chinese but filipino because they can no longer speak chinese.

I think filipinos classify themselves according to the language they are most comfortable with. For example: ilocanos are supposed to be able to speak ilocano so it is a travesty if someone calls himself ilocano but cannot speak the language. Having ilocano ancestry is not enough to classify someone as ilocano if the mastery of the language is missing. Same with the kapampangans, the pangalatoks, etc. So it is with the chinese. If someone has a single syllable chinese surname and can speak chinese then that person is considered chinese or chinoy.

Not really. Many Igorots speak Ilocano as their mother tongue but they don't identify themselves as Ilocanos. They still identify themselves as Bontokis(Ifontocs), Ibaloi, Kankanaey, etc regardless if their mother tongue is Ilocano or not. I know a lot of Ibalois who identify themselves as Ibalois event though they don't know a word of Ibaloi. There's this prominent Ibaloi family in Baguio uses English as the familty lingua franca, yet they strongly identify themselves as Ibaloi, not American or even "little American". I live in a city outside Metro Manila where there a good number of Chinese and I know a lot of Chinese(pure and mixed) who can't speak, at least, their dialect(non-Manadarin Chinese) very badly but they not one of them has identified themselves as "mestizos". Or maybe, we should ask somebody from the Chinese community regrarding the use of Chinese mestizo to refer to the Chinese who can't speak Chinese anymore. To what I have heard, they are called "Pinoy" rather than Chinese mestizo by many people from the Chinese community. I'm not bothered if they call themselves Pinoy just because they can't speak Chinese. I'm bothered with the mestizo term. It's so out-of-context, in addition to that, I've never encountered such. Filipino, anyway, is nationality, maybe that's why there are pure Chinese who identify themselves as Filipino because that is their nationality. The fact, however, that they are ethnic Chinese will remain undisputed.

I have acquaintances with surnames that are in the list of chinese surnames. I think those people would be very surprised to learn that they are chinese mestizos since none of them speak a word of chinese. robert 210.14.27.179 13:28, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

It seems to me that this statement has prejorative meaning against the mestizos who are "rich" or upperclass. The Cojuancos are considered upperclass in the Philippines, but it is known to many that thay are Chinese mestizos.

Please do not apply how the Spanish-Filipino identify themselves to the Chinese-Filipinos.

Traditionally, filipinos use the term mestizo to refer to someone who has mixed caucasian-filipino ancestry. I have never heard of the term mestizo applied to anyone of chinese-filipino or other-race-filipino ancestry. The only time I see mestizo applied to anyone of mixed ancestry is in textbooks. In other words, only academics use the term mestizo for anyone of mixed descent, filipinos themselves don't use it that way.

it is still very common for non-mestizo Filipinos to view Filipinos with nom-native admixture as mestizo...unless you're part black. I've been mistaken as a "mestizang Instik" by a former classmate of mine. That was the term she used.

The term chinoy is a new term and as commonly used refers to younger filipinos with half or full chinese ancestry. The elders are referred to as either filipino or chinese. It arose because many adult chinese natives are full filipino citizens and their children live in a cultural half-world. The children speak filipino and consider themselves filipino but are chinese at home. Anyway that is how I understand the term is actually used.

I think the Chinese came up with that new term to replace the term Intsik, which for them is very degratory.

Maybe the definition of chinoy and mestizo should be rewritten to better reflect actual usage. robert@210.14.27.179 13:28, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I think so too.

[edit] 50%, really?

Chinese mestizos are those in the Philippines of mixed Chinese and either Filipino or Spanish (or both) ancestry. They make up about 50% of the country's total population (those who are pure Chinese make up 2% of the population).

Is this for real? Chinese mestizos comprise 50% of the Filipino population?

Maybe it included the "mestizos" during the 10th century
That's sort of like saying "The Irish are 50% Czech." Perhaps that passage in the article should be rephrased. I'd do it myself, but I don't have facts exactly.
I don't know but 50% would be too high. 10-20% would still be realistic, but 50% is way too high.

Hi. Before you make any comments, i think you should consider two things. One at the turn of the 20th century, there are only 8 million filipinos, which means that it is possible for a huge number of filipinos to have common ancestors (ratio Now:20th century > 11:1). Two, intermarriage is very common in the filipino society and the defining line for etnicity is very vague. This means that even if there were only 20,000 chinese at that time, they can easily spread their genes all over the population.23prootie 05:25, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

8 million Filipinos versus the more or less 100,000 Chinese is a huge disparity. There are 10 100,000 in a million Let's even consider the fact that the Spaniards massacred them many times; at most 24,000 in one day. A good number Filipino people have some Chinese ancestry but saying half of the population have Chinese blood is gross overestimation.

[edit] Requested move

Chinese-Filipino → Chinese Filipino — "Chinese Filipino" is the noun where "Chinese" is an adjective to the noun "Filipino." Whereas, "Chinese-Filipino" is used as an adjective. For instance, "Chinese-Filipino community", "Chinese-Filipino Catholic" or "Chinese-Filipino student." { PMGOMEZ } 14:20, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Survey

Add  # '''Support'''  or  # '''Oppose'''  on a new line in the appropriate section followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion using ~~~~.

[edit] Survey - Support votes

  1. Support. While a lot of Chinese Filipinos in the Philippines tend to use "Filipino-Chinese", "Filipino Chinese", or "Chinese-Filipino," these are grammatically wrong. "Chinese Filipino" is the noun where "Chinese" is an adjective to the noun "Filipino." Whereas, "Chinese-Filipino" is used as an adjective. For instance, "Chinese-Filipino community", "Chinese-Filipino Catholic" or "Chinese-Filipino student."

References:

{ PMGOMEZ } 14:23, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

  1. Support References above below are good enough for me (though I'm still not convinced that "Filipino Chinese" is wrong, just non-preferred). My main concern is that then the article name won't match Category:Chinese-Filipinos --- to get it changed, we'd have to go through CfDwhere it's basically impossible to get anything done with ethnic categories because of all the people who come in and vote WP:IDONTLIKEIT. Also, it may conflict with Wikipedia:Naming conventions (categories)#Heritage. cab 02:21, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
    1. Comment. In the Philippines, a former US colony, ethnicity precedes citizenship. As for Filipino Chinese/Filipino-Chinese, Filomeno Lim explains in this article why the construction is widely used in the country. —Lagalag 09:29, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
  2. Support, with reservations. I’m for following current trends in the language, and if that entails dropping the hyphen, then I don’t see any reason to oppose that. However, such an action should not be based on the premise that the ‘Chinese’ in ‘Chinese Filipino’ is an adjective, suggesting that they are an inherently different kind of Filipino, and not simply Chinese-Filipinos with dual, coexisting identities. —Lagalag 09:29, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
  3. Support other similar names seem to follow this convention, and it's such a minor thing to quibble about. See Asian American, Hispanic American, etc. -Patstuarttalk|edits 01:46, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Survey - Oppose votes

  1. Oppose. The grammatical correctness arguments are bogus, not legitimately based on English usage. Gene Nygaard 16:48, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion

Add any additional comments:
Comment: Do you have references to support the idea that "Filipino Chinese" is "grammatically wrong"? The two have almost the exact same number of Google Books hits (once you take out all the hits on "Chinese Filipino" which are just lists of nationalities); it would seem that editors at many major publishing houses disagree with your idea. A nationality can be an adjective modifying an ethnicity as well as the other way around. cab 21:36, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
Reply to Comment 1: Filipinos in the Philippines who trace their ethnicity to China are "Chinese Filipinos," while Chinese in China who trace their ethnicity to the Philippines are "Filipino Chinese." People have gone accustomed to using Filipino Chinese / Filipino-Chinese even if they refer to Filipinos who have Chinese blood -- which is wrong. For instance, you don't say "American Asian" if you refer to an American who was born and resides in the U.S., who traces his/her ethnicity to Asia. Rather, "Asian American." Thank you. { PMGOMEZ } 01:01, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
You saying it's wrong is not a reference, it is your opinion which is not held by the many scholars referring to them as "Filipino Chinese" in printed books. Additionally, "Asian American" is by convention, not because the grammatical rules of English demand it. Note British Chinese (not "Chinese British" with only half as many ghits), Malaysian Chinese, Thai Chinese, Burmese Chinese, etc. Cheers, cab 01:45, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
I completely understand your point. I was writing the following but didn't make it as an addenum, so I'll use it as a reply. :) ... Let's look at the "See Also" section of the article. "Bahay Tsinoy", "Tsinoy", "Chinese-Filipino Digest". Even in Tagalog/Filipino, the term is "Tsinoy" and not "Noytsi" or "Pitsino", where "Tsi-" for "Tsino" meaning "Chinese" precedes "-noy" for "Pinoy" meaning "Filipino". As for references, there are tons at the Kaisa Heritage Center (the heritage center for Chinese Filipinos) in Intramuros in Manila. From my discussions with Teresita Ang See[1], Fr. Aristotle Dy, S.J.[2], Ellen Palanca[3], among others, it has been deemed that "Chinese Filipino" is the correct term. This, plus the references indicated above, plus resources at the Ricardo Leong Center for Chinese Studies, as well as the Confucius Institute at the Ateneo de Manila University support this claim. A detailed explanation is provided by Michael Tan[4], a columnist for the Philippine Daily Inquirer, and a professor at the Ateneo as well. Gracias. { PMGOMEZ } 01:55, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
K, good enough for me. Thanks! cab 02:21, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
You're most welcome. :) { PMGOMEZ } 02:40, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
On categories. Would it be OK to try? { PMGOMEZ } 02:40, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
Re Bogusness. References please. { PMGOMEZ } 08:03, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
Comment. Though I support it on linguistic grounds (given that the proposal was crafted with linguistics in mind), I myself have reservations regarding the proposed move. Whether or not to drop the hyphen seems to be more a political and identity issue rather than a lingustic one, as we’ve so far been treating it here. Given that, is it really our business to mirror the Canadians or, increasingly, the Americans when they drop the hyphen? —Lagalag 17:57, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
It's not really about mirroring Canadians or Americans. At any rate, the use of "Chinese" in "Chinese Filipino" means that Tsinoys are an ethnic group in the larger Filipino group. For instance, one may opt for "Visayan Filipino" or "Cebuano Filipino". For duality, perhaps it could be if a person has both Chinese and Filipino citizenships, considering that it's legal to be a dual citizen in the Philippines? { PMGOMEZ } 06:30, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
By having a dual identity, I meant having dual affiliations in ethnolinguistic, cultural, etc. terms, not necessarily having dual citizenship. —Lagalag 07:39, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
This is very interesting. Would you happen to have references on this? Thanks. { PMGOMEZ } 08:18, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
I will not give you references, but I will give some very obvious examples: Binondo Tsinoys maintaining cultural links with China, Kastilas maintaining linguistic links with the Hispanophone world, and Chinese mestizos maintaining gastronomic links to Chinese cuisine. There are also others, of course. Do you really believe these Filipinos with dual ethnic identities necessarily also have Chinese, Taiwanese, Spanish, or Chilean citizenship, as you are implying?
As for Cebuanos, Kapampangans, Tagalogs, Moros, etc., suffixing their identities with ‘-Filipino’ is redundant, given that these are constituent ethnicities within the Filipino ethnic group. I mean, c’mon, “Lower Saxon-German”, “Piedmontese-Italian”, “Cantabrian-Spaniard”? “Cebuano”, “Kapampangan”, “Lower Saxon”, “Piedmontese”, and “Cantabrian” alone are sufficient.
Regarding the use of ‘Chinese’ in ‘Chinese Filipino’ as an adjective, allow me to direct you to this page from a style manual, which, apart from dropping the hyphen, advises,
Do not hyphenate African American (or other compound nationalities, even when used as an adjective: an honored African American novelist).
acknowledging that the ‘African’ in ‘African American’ is not an adjective; otherwise, it would have recommended writing “African-American novelist”. —Lagalag 11:27, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
Interesting. As for the use of "Chinese Filipino", the Kaisa Fact Sheet seems to provide a brief yet concise explanation. I would still love to read references. { PMGOMEZ } 12:36, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

I have carried out the move based on the consensus here. You may be able to list the category for speedy renaming, under G6 (housekeeping), though Id err on the side of caution and do a full CfD, making the conensus on this article clear. Martinp23 12:25, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Filipino Chinese Names

I think it would be a good idea to put a list of common Filipino-Chinese names. I know many of the surnames (mainly the Chinese Mestizo ones) are constructions upon the original Chinese name.. Eg. Originally Ong, now Rebong. FRM SYD 01:48, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

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