Talk:Children of Bodom

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[edit] Archives

For previous discussions please see:

Archive 1

[edit] Three-revert rule violations

Earlier today, I blocked User:Leyasu and User:220.239.77.250 for 24 hours each for violating the three-revert rule, which states that you should not revert edits to a page more than three times in a day. If anyone here breaks that rule again, please say so on the 3RR notice board.

I know about the situation with this article. Unfortunately, I don't know much about this band, so I can't be of much help in resolving the content side of the issue. But I do have some advice that will hopefully help resolve the issues here. Everyone should be using talk pages, not edit summaries, for discussion. Reverting generally doesn't accomplish anything, except for making people more stressed out. I'd recommend only doing it in cases of clear vandalism. Establish consensus, and then see to it that the consensus is what's posted on the page. Citing sources and making sure that your writing is neutral and verifiable is the best way to go. Use Wikipedia:Dispute resolution if necessary, but only after a lot of discussion on the talk page first - try to work everything out among yourselves, and keep the discussions as constructive as possible. --Idont Havaname (Talk) 05:47, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dead Links

Quick note for anyone editing this article: The source link at the bottom to the official COB biography is dead. I don't have time at the moment to fix it. --Yuletide 21:03, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Covers

According to [1], CoB has covered Klamydia's Latomeri in the Seokset EP, which contains songs performed by Klamydia, and covers of Klamydia's songs by some Finnish artists.Punainen Nörtti 12:03, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

According to [2], the official CoB site, CoB has not played "Final Countdown" or "The Trooper" covers. If you change the covers list to include these songs, please please please cite sources that prove that CoB has actually played these songs.Punainen Nörtti 07:03, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

I added references to the covers list. Hope this keeps the list from oscillating. As an eventualist I would like to see the content to converge:-) Punainen Nörtti 10:50, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Steps Forward

[edit] Proposed changes

I'm going to put proposed paragraphs here. If you think something should be changed then change it in these "prototype" paragraphs. 220.239.77.250 08:04, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Intro Paragraph

Children of Bodom is a band from Espoo, Finland. There is some contention regarding the band's genre classification, but, in general, the band's musical style can be described as a hybrid of Power Metal, Melodic Death Metal, speed metal, Melodic black metal and neoclassic metal.

The band's earlier releases leaned more towards a Power metal style (with some Melodic black metal influence), but more recently the band has focused on a style more closely related to Melodic Death Metal. It should be noted, however, that throughout the band's history, much of the music has retained key characteristics of Power metal, such as a focus on rapid tempos and technical guitar and keyboard solos. Other traits (such as Alexi's vocal approach and Jaska's use of blast beats) are also consistent across the band's discography. The lyrics of Children of Bodom's songs are written in English and most often are concerned with the subjects of death, personal struggles and the Lake Bodom murders.

That keeps your melodic black part in. I don't agree with it but one thing at a time. I also included parts about similarities with extreme metal. "English language" is a bit redundant so I left it at "English". I also added "lake bodom murders" to lyrical content. If you'd like a source for this then look at the lyrics for "Silent Night, Bodom Night". 220.239.77.250 08:04, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Ok first things first. One song doesnt constitute lyrical content, so we need toremove the lake bodom thing. Most of what you have is ok, but, highly disorganized. I will have made changes to the part above and bullet pointed it, to relfect on things ive seen that you havent. (Edit) I also split it into two to show how it should be displayed on the article in its form discussing the bands style. This added information would also probally be moved into the Genre Controversy section when its done. Leyasu

I think "heavy metal" should be in the first sentence. I'm sure that we can both agree that the band is part of that larger genre. Later on it can get more specific.

Most metal isnt part of heavy metal. Thus its better to list them as a band to save on possible POV arguments. Something ive learned from editing before.

It's true that Bodom isn't a traditional heavy metal band. But if an ordinary person were to hear the music I think they would think of heavy metal. Heavy metal is what modern metal is descended from, so I think the inclusion is valid. I don't really think there are going to be any POV arguments on this one. If there are we'll change it. 220.239.77.250 09:27, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

"High amount of debate" is a bit clumsy (no offense). "Some contention" I think is generally better.

Agreed. What does Contention mean? As in Contest?

Basically means disagreement in this context. 220.239.77.250 09:27, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

You can have your "melodic black" for now. We can sort that out later, agreed?

There is no 'my melodic black' for now. Sources provided information, thus they go in, wether you like it or not. It stays in and we build around it.

Made a few minor changes.
Songs which refer to Lake Bodom:

Lake Bodom

Silent Night, Bodom Night: http://darklyrics.com/lyrics/childrenofbodom/hatebreeder.html#2

Children of Bodom: http://darklyrics.com/lyrics/childrenofbodom/hatebreeder.html#8

Bodom Beach Terror: http://darklyrics.com/lyrics/childrenofbodom/hatecrewdeathroll.html#4

Bastards of Bodom: http://darklyrics.com/lyrics/childrenofbodom/areyoudeadyet.html#7

I think that's enough to justify the "Lake bodom murders" inclusion. 220.239.77.250 08:39, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Right. Ok we include that. On the note of each of your bullet points, i added comments underneath each. Also please try to keep the above paragraph Bullet Pointed. Leyasu 09:00, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

"subjects involving" changed to "subjects of" (grammar)
I agree with the Black metal vocal thing but it could be construed as POV. If we say that Alexi's vocal approach is a trait related to extreme metal then I think it's better.
I agree with you - the Lake bodom murders thing is probably the least prominent lyrical aspect listed. So instead of saying "sometimes" I just put it last. 220.239.77.250 09:27, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Removed the Heavy Metal part. Purely because listing it as Heavy Metal A) Completly undermines everything else pertaining to genre, B) Generally isnt Wikipedia prose.

Removed the section below part because this is not part of Wikipedia prose either.

Added on occasion to the lake bodom murders because they are not a prominent theme, and as such are a minor one.

Removed Extreme Metal due to 'Extreme Metal' being a cross-genre reference that not all people accept, and this is provocation for POV attacks and flame wars.

As such i think the paragraph in its now current state, is ready to be posted into the article, agreed? Leyasu 09:37, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

I'd just like one thing changed before it goes in. Namely, the "on occasion" part. I only cited a few sources, I think more songs mention the murders. It's listed last because it's the least prominent. 220.239.77.250 10:10, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Ive added it in and tweaked a few things for Wikipedia prose which u changed and i didnt notice. Feel free to add the next paragraph yew find problematic for revision now. Leyasu 10:25, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

I would add another paragraph, but all that I want changed for now is the rest of the article from my reverts. I didn't mess with the content much; I just changed sentence structures, removed inaccurate information and a few language errors. It wasn't a complete overhaul. 220.239.77.250 10:41, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

What you consider a few inaccurays is not always a few inaccuracys. If there is more language errors, Wesley will fix them when he copyedits the page. Leyasu 10:49, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

You should perhaps post the one that we actually agreed upon. Plus, I'm not sure if you and I deciding makes a consensus. From the number of people reverting to the non-"melodic black" edition, it would appear that the consensus is for that to be the article. If this continues I might just set up a "Consensus" paragraph asking editors what they want - the old version, the newer version or the even newer compromise version. If the results are conclusive that might stop all the revert warring. 220.239.77.250 00:23, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

Policy dictates what happens, not a bunch of Anons. The paragraph is done now, and it shall remain done. A bunch of Anons trying to undermine policys doesnt work. Consensus only works if that consensus is within policy, which vandalism and POV is not. I emplore yew for comprimising and doing things the way Wikipedia works in working step by step to revise the section, but dont take 2 steps forward and then 6 back, as that is most unconstructive. Leyasu 00:40, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

In Wikipedia, "a bunch of anons" have as much a right to contribute as anyone else. Next time you revert someone like that, tell them to come to the talk page and discuss in the edit summary. All I was saying was that the consensus of two editors really doesn't count for much and we should probably try to include others in order to make it a real consensus. After all, nobody else got a say in the intro paragraph. 220.239.77.250 00:45, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

Others had the chance to comment, which they didnt. Yes Anons have a right to contribute, and im not saying they dont. What i am saying, is that a small consensus only means something, when it isnt breaking policys. This goes to say, that mainly only experienced Wikipedians use Wp:IAR, and thats usually after a very long discussion in which admins are involved on a heavy level. As such, the paragraph is fine, and does not need to be changed. Leyasu 01:11, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Early years

The band was founded in 1993 by guitarist Alexi "Wildchild" Laiho and drummer Jaska Raatikainen under the name of IneartheD. Both musicians had known each other since childhood and had shared an interest in heavy metal and especially death metal bands, such as Stone, Entombed and Obituary. Bassist Samuli Miettinen completed the initial line-up of the band. IneartheD recorded its first demo, titled Implosion of Heaven, during August of the same year.

Samuli was the main composer of the band's lyrics for the two years that he took part in IneartheD, but his family moved to the USA in late 1995, making it impossible for him to remain in the band. His last contribution to IneartheD were the lyrics of the songs from their second demo, Ubiquitous Absence of Remission. In this demo, keyboards were incorporated into the band's songs for the first time. In order to achieve this, both Alexi and Jaska played the keyboards separately, and subsequently mixed the recorded track with the other instruments. Alexi, who had previously only composed the melodies of the songs, assumed the role of the band's lyricist.

At the time, Jaska played French horn in a local big band, and during a rehearsal he met Alexander Kuoppala, a trumpet player and also a proficient guitarist. Hence, shortly after the recording of their second demo, Alexander was invited to join IneartheD as a rhythm guitarist.

The bassist chosen to replace Samuli was Henkka "Blacksmith" Seppälä, whom Alexi and Jaska had previously met at school. Apart from playing the bass, Henkka also often doubles as the band's backing vocalist. Also, the band recruited a musician to specialize on keyboards, whose name was Jani Pirisjoki. Both musicians joined IneartheD in early 1996.

With this new line-up, IneartheD proceeded to record their third demo, entitled Shining. This demo did not impress record labels any more than the previous ones had, and none took interest in the band. Despite their efforts, their music got little exposure, with them managing only to play at local events. As a last resort, the band decided to record an independent, self-funded album. Considering that none of the musicians had much money to begin with, it was an audacious move.

The classic Bodom line-up, from left to right: Alexander, Jaska, Janne, Henkka and Alexi

Alexi wanted to make use of the keyboards more effectively this time, and Pirisjoki was not fit for the task anymore; thus, he was fired from the band (albeit not in a hostile manner) and a friend of Jaska's, a talented pianist called Janne "Warman" Wirman, assumed the role of keyboard player.

Janne was the component which was missing from IneartheD. His presence allowed the band to assume the style which would later characterise Children of Bodom. With him, the band successfully recorded their first album in the year of 1997 and received a professional deal from it. Their debut, Something Wild, was supposed to be released by a small Belgian label, but Sami Tenetz (from Thy Serpent) acquired a copy of their album through the hands of Alexander (both musicians worked for the same company at the time). Shortly after IneartheD signed this contract, Spinefarm Records' boss immediately became interested in signing them for a country-wide release. The latter deal was much more attractive to the band, since the Belgian label was offering them close to no help, to the point where they would have to distribute and sell the album themselves.

For the band to be able to sign with Spinefarm Records, they were forced to change their name, since the contract with the Belgian label had already been signed under the name of IneartheD. The answer to that problem came as the band members looked for good names in their local phone book. When they stumbled upon Lake Bodom, they realized it was a name with impact; one which had an interesting story behind it. A long list of possible names involving the word Bodom was then made, and they settled with Children of Bodom.

The story of the Lake Bodom murders goes as follows: on the night of June the 4th of 1960, three teenagers were murdered by means of repeated stabbing with a knife while on a camping trip to the lake. There was a lone survivor named Nils Gustafsson, who was initially believed to be an innocent witness who happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. However, in early 2005, the Finnish National Bureau of Investigation reported that Gustafsson was a suspect. He was later arrested and tried. On October 7, 2005, Gustafsson was found not guilty. Henkka Seppälä commented, "The further the trial went on, the more it seemed that it's not possible to judge him. The prosecution side's evidence was too weak. The biggest surprise was the fact that he was even prosecuted in the first place. Most of the people wouldn't have guessed that kind of thing to happen in this matter. Now he is free, and innocent as he has always been (my trust towards our law institution is strong) and nothing has changed in the mystery of Lake Bodom. So we can go on and we don't have to change our name, like many people suggested to do if the case would have been solved!" ^[3]

A message wasnt left as to what the proposal 'is', so i sectioned off the above so that people can either move their changes down, or, write in their proposals here. Ley Shade 11:50, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

The above is my proposal for the "Early years" paragraph. There aren't many changes, just a few sentence reconstructions, etc. 220.239.77.250 13:33, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

It seems fine. Just remember to add a link to terms like Big Band and such. But feel free to go ahead and post it. Ley Shade 14:04, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Forgot to add in the second part before. It's added here now. I had to change the caption because the picture does not show the initial line-up of the band. I think "classic" is a good adjective because it's that line-up which produced the first four of five albums. It might seem a bit POV but I think it's appropriate and justified. 220.239.77.250 23:02, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Classic is inheritantly POV. Initial means mostly the same things and is neautral. Better to keep the former. Ley Shade 07:23, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Get rid of classic then. Call it the 1997-whenever line-up or whatever. But it's NOT the initial line-up. "Initial" means the way the band was at the start. The initial line-up was Laiho, Raatikainen and Miettinen. I don't really care so much what you put in instead, so long as that inaccuracy is removed. 220.239.77.250 13:01, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

Try this. Children of Bodom's line up when (album) was relseased in(year). Just replace year and album with the correct information. Ley Shade 15:17, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Gramma

If the gramma needs fixing, please make note of it here. If the case is that it needs fixing, any user involved in this dispute resoloution can contact the user WesleyDodds to perform a copyedit of the article. Wesley is a very helpfull and patient user, who asserts their POV put also respects the Wikipedia policy of citing sources, and respects that all POV

To my knowledge, there are no spelling or grammatical errors in the newer version. If you have problems with POV or anything else don't revert because then all the mistakes are retained. Also, I should point out that it's "grammar", not "gramma". 220.239.77.250 05:41, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Across the sea, different spellings are used. Im in England, so i use English spellings for words. I have reverted it because you are in violation of 3 policys as explained above by changing the article without discussing this. If you see there is grammar problems in the article, i will notify Wesley, which i am doing now. Leyasu

You state, "I have reverted it because you are in violation of 3 policys as explained above by changing the article without discussing this." I didn't change the article without discussion. Have a look at the edit history. I wasn't the one who reverted most recently, although I considered it. However, my patience is wearing thin. I really don't know why you keep reverting the language corrections. Seriously, I'm not far off just reverting the article without discussion.

Also, I'm not talking about regional spelling differences. It's "grammar" everywhere. Also, if you're using UK English, why don't you keep it as "characterise" rather than use the American "characterize"? 220.239.77.250 07:25, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

If you had taken the time to check my user info, you would know i have trouble spelling anyway. Also, a revert is reverting text to a former version, regardless of wether you state it as a revert in the edit summary or not. However i have messaged Wesley, and im sure he will copyedit it as soon as he comes on next. Leyasu 07:50, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Genre Controversy

As long as sources are provided, all genres must be pertained in the genre box in the info and opening score. If all users would care to post sources belo if these part needs copyediting for Gramma, contacting Wesley is the best way to go.

Not sure if this section is even needed at all, considering the alleged "controversy" seems to be restricted to Wikipedia and consists of one person arguing against everyone else. But, if it keeps the peace, I'll let it be for now. 220.239.77.250 05:41, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

I say we simply use Metal Archives' definition in the genre box, Speed/Power Metal with harsh vocals, and leave the many other variations and interpretations in the genre controversy article. Durandal1717 01:41, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Also see the Cradle of Filth article. As long as sources dispute the genre of the band, this part is a needed section of the article. Leyasu 06:54, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Durandal1717 on this subject. Free2game 11:16 AM 12 August 2006 (UTC)

I think we should change the "death metal" label to "melodic death metal". Children of Bodom's music has few of the traits of traditional death metal, as their music tends to focus on melody, rather than rhythm.

[edit] Reverting

One user has hid behind the policy of not reverting other users, while reverting any edit that isnt their own. As such, from the article in its current state, no changes will not be made to the article until they have been discussed thoroughly here, an protests by other users shall be made, without prior discussion.

I'd like to remind you that you are the one that reverted me when I first made changes to the article. As such, you're the one who defied the policy in the first place. Since then, I've reverted only to rectify the situation. What are your problems with the rest of the article? I know that you think some parts are POV. Go ahead and change them. Or, if you like, tell me which parts and I'll try to fix them. I'm not perfect.

I'm happy to discuss changes before they are made if you are. Also, I'm not sure what you mean by "anprotested by other users shall be made, without prior discussion". Could you please explain what you mean by this sentence? 220.239.77.250 05:41, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

I get lost in thought a lot, so i have corrected my own typing mistakes. Apologies for the confusion that cause you, and if you read again it will be fine. Also note, that your violating policys as explained above. And im also trying to be friendly and teach you what is expected, mostly by following the guidelines from he Featured Article Nightwish, and from what admins have corrected me on before. Leyasu 06:57, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

How am I violating policies? Is this statement based on the assumption that I recently reverted the article? Also, I'll check out the Nightwish article. 220.239.77.250 07:25, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

I have a proposition. Let's both leave the article alone for now. If it gets vandalised (and I mean real vandalism) then someone else can fix it. As long as we don't edit/revert the article, we are forced to discuss changes. Then, once changes are agreed upon, they may be implemented. I'm going to add a "Proposed changes" section. Please take a look at the propositions and respond. I'll start with the first paragraph. I won't touch genre though, because it's a really contentious issue. 220.239.77.250 07:37, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

They do affect content and point of view, and i think you dont realise that. However, the point of this is to propose changes in each section. Feel free to add more before the closing notes if needed. As i previously mentioned, i have asked Wesley to do a copyedit of the article, and we await his response. Leyasu 07:51, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Failure To Adhere This Dispute Resoloution

If any partys involved wish to ignore this dispute resoloution for editing the article, a request for page protection will be made, as well as a RFC that will provide a thorough conensus based solely on Wikipedia policys. If this still fails, and users involved refuse to be civil, co-operative and to work with their fellow editors, then admins will unfortunatly have to be brought into mediate the argument themselfs, and their rulings can and will be final.

I'm not sure about what you mean by that first sentence. Could you explain that as well? 220.239.77.250 05:41, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

My mistake, i got lost in mid sentence again. Ive corrected this, so it should read properly. I am also going to message user WesleyDodds now, and he will perform a complete copyedit of the article given the chance to do so. Leyasu 07:00, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] End Comment

The proposed soloutions above are in the intrest of making progress with the article and stopping any more outraged edits, reverts and warring before it grows out of hand. Please read each carefully, comment in the appropriate section, and be mindfull of other editors. The more co-operative and pleasent users are with each other, the faster the dispute will be resolved. Leyasu 19:46, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Children of Bodom = power / speed / melo black / melo death metal / neoclassic / bodom metal

Is this some sort of joke?

I mean, you got the power metal part correct, but melo black / melo death? I do not know how you came to such a conclusion. I mean, melodic black metal hardly differs from black metal itself and there is nothing black metal about Children of Bodom (except maybe the vocals which share SOME similarity with the average type of BM vocals)... same goes for melo death.

If you want an accurate classification, you'd go for something like; 'Power / speed metal with symphonic elements and harsh vocals' ... because that is what you get when you add those melodic power metal-sounding guitars, speed metal musicianship, abundant use of keyboards and keyboard solos and harsh vocals. Does that make sense? Yes it does.

No, it doesnt. Please see the musical genre article. Also see the long and expansive discussion on this above. Also see the genre controversy section of the article.

Please also realise that Metal Archives is the only place that claims the band as Power Metal, and that has already been proven unreliable time and time again, and so will not be counted as any one amazing source. Ley Shade 13:47, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

... you actually think I'm taking my classification from metal-archives? My classification differs from it, so look again buddy. Not to mention that most sources of metal information on the internet are highly inaccurate, so why the hell would I need sources to back up my claims if I can use the knowledge that I already possess? The fact that you think I need sources from the internet alone proves you don't know shit.

I mean, look at this: 'Children of Bodom is a heavy metal band [...]'? Since when have Children of Bodom been put amongst bands like Iron Maiden and Judas Priest? Are you serious!? Then you say this, in an attempt to justify such a theory: 'It's true that Bodom isn't a traditional heavy metal band. But if an ordinary person were to hear the music I think they would think of heavy metal. Heavy metal is what modern metal is descended from, so I think the inclusion is valid.' What kind of 'seasoned' metal listener would prefer to write an article for 'ordinary people', as opposed to one which is more accurate and for people who actually listen to the music. And whether 'modern' metal decended from heavy metal or not is extraneous. That's as much of a valid observation as labelling death metal as thrash metal, based on the fact it was a major influence and starting point for the genre. And whoever was so enthusiastic to put 'melodic black' into the classification is an utter dolt, to be blunt.

I could refute every other baseless point provided above by yourself and whoever entered the discussion on the genre but it would be a waste of time. I already explained why CoB fits into my classification and not into yours; choose to accept it and increase wikipedia's credibility or keep it the same and everyone will continue to think this metal part of the site is run by a group of metal noobs. --Tyrantmusikpro 05:39, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia has policys, such as WP:CITE and WP:NPOV. Your classification also doesnt exist, as is shown by the musical genre article. Thus it has been reverted, as what your doing is considered vandalism. Ley Shade 07:11, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

My classification doesn't exist? Says who? Wikipedia? LOL! You can say 'symphonic power / speed metal' with harsh vocals if you really want, or even skip the harsh vocal part. Now you can't REALLY tell me 'symphonic power / speed metal' doesn't exist, yet 'Power / Melodic Black / Melodic Death Metal' can exist?! Good job buddy. By the way, there is nothing that prevents power metal and speed metal from being mixed.

And that 'music genre' mentions 'heavy metal' under rock; what the fuck? Even if metal stemmed from that genre, it should be given a whole section for itself, seeing as it is a very broad group of genres. It is beyond me how you would refer to that page as 'proof' that the genre I used doesn't exist. And about vandalism - that is laughable. I am trying to rid the CoB article of false information, and replace it with accurate information. Get a clue. --Tyrantmusikpro 05:20, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Your view is reflected in the articles 'Genre Controversy' section. Speed Metal is also not a genre of music. Children of Bodom are also not Symphonic Power Metal, as they do not wholey match the defination of Symphonic Power Metal as is given on the Symphonic Metal article.

The purpose of listing all the genres, is to point out that the band does not fit definitavly into any one of them, but rather uses aspects and influences from all the genres. Also, they are all listed due to sources and citations having been provided for them, after all, Wikipedia is an Encyclopedia, not a Soapbox, WP:NOT].

If yew wish to debate the Musical Genre article, i suggest doing so at the talk page for the article. Ley Shade 10:36, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Speed metal isn't a genre of music? LoL, thanks for reconfirming the fact that you know nothing about metal. :) As I've said before, please don't quote wikipedia articles as evidence, they prove nothing.

I already know that CoB doesn't fit into a single genre (if that's what you're trying to say in your 2nd paragraph), but perhaps that is why I said they're a mix of power and speed metal?... --Tyrantmusikpro 05:20, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Taken from the Speed Metal article:

'Speed metal' is a cross-genre reference to bands from the mainly from the thrash metal and power metal genres. The term is mainly used to differentiate between bands of either genre who use tempos or beats that are faster than is normal for either genre, but is also tends to reference bands that combine aspects of the two genres.

Thus, Speed Metal is not a genre. Im also not the one trying to enforce their opinion onto a Wikipedia article, whilst failing to provide any sources. Read through WP:NPOV, WP:CITE and [{WP:NOT]].

Ehm...You do know that speed metal existed before thrash metal? Check out this link for a discussion on speed metal which I find a lot better describing than the Wikiepedia-article. Check out OSheaman's post. GoogleMe 20:37, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Taken from the Children of Bodom article:

Some debate that the band is part of several musical genres, including melodic death metal, neo-classical metal, melodic black metal, power metal, speed metal and thrash metal. Some sources claim the band is extreme power metal, due to the bands overarching use of power metal elements throughout their discography, and their use of death metal and black metal elements combined with these. Others feel the band has no association with death metal or black metal, due to the bands lack of intergration into the scenes associated with either genre. Some claim the band as extreme thrash metal, due to some of their influences on early albums being thrash metal bands, and their first albums sharing some sonic similarity with thrash metal songs. Others discount all of the above suggestions, claiming the band as a speed metal band due to the use of high tempos akin to power metal and thrash metal.

Your view is represented with all the others, in a fair and nuetral way. Thus, the article will not be changed to reflect only your POV when your breaking Wikipedia's core policys and its already represented in a part of the article. Ley Shade 09:24, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

I was quite reluctant to provide evidence from the internet on what genre Children of Bodom is, as I feel that there are two many misconceptions floating around the internet regarding genres (like Slipknot and co. = heavy metal, for example), but if you insist...

http://forum.darklyrics.com/read.php?2,441992,442224 , http://metalcrypt.com/pages/reviewsframe.php?revid=96 , http://www.metal-archives.com/band.php?id=22

Whether you consider those reputable sources or not doesn't really matter, as they all are more accurate than wikipedia (your source on metal information).

And here is a page stating what speed metal is:

http://forum.darklyrics.com/read.php?2,394737

And how the hell is it a 'point of view' that CoB is symph power/speed w/ harsh vocals? It's a fact (or at least damn close to it). It is painfully obvious that CoB has little to no relation to melodic death/melodic black metal, yet you let that be put into the article?... k... But what you're saying is just as foolish as claiming it's 'just someone's opinion' that a band like Immolation is death metal, when, in reality, it is a blatant fact. --Tyrantmusikpro 01:58, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Anyway, this is the last time I'm visiting this page. Enjoy your ignorance. :)

Cleanup: I don't think 3 genres should be mentioned in that list, I mean, there is already a seperate section for COB's style. I strongly disagree with the Melo-Black categorization, since the sound of it HARDLY strays from Black Metal, which COB sounds nothing like. Melo Death is fine, as it is mainly Iron Maiden/Judas Priest influenced with the death growls, and COB generally leans more towards power metal. As per cleanup (see: WP:HMM I opt for removal of Melo-Black from the immediate genre list, and keep it in the section for the Category Debate. I will not do so yet, I am currently seeing others opinions on the topic. This page shows that epople disagree, but honestly, there isn't a need for 3 genres listed if there is a section on it. May as well add Speed Metal, Thrash Metal and Neo-Classical Metal if we are to be like that. --Ryouga 01:23, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Update: In case anyone strongly disagrees with me, consider this. 'Old Man's Child' is arguably the most well known band WIDELY accepted as being "Melodic Black Metal". The similarity between their musical style and Bodom's is VERY, VERY different. Most melodeath bands are very NWOBHM influenced, as is COB, and Power Metal of course needs to stay as they lean very much so on that genre. Per cleanup, melo-black really needs removal. --Ryouga 01:34, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. Melodic Black Metal is a misnomer in this case. However, in order to properly commit to this kind of dissention, one must provide credible sources that verifies Children of Bodom do not fit the categorization of Melodic Black Metal. Should be easy enough to find. I support the suggestion though. Wisdom89 00:00, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

I concur. I've been trying to have the Melodic black thing removed for a while. It's nonsense. I believe it should be listed as such: Power metal, melodic death. This is because power metal is the most prominent. 220.239.82.216 11:31, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Personally, I think they are a blend of Speed Metal and Melodic Death Metal. They are not Black Metal though. If you think that, you need to actually listen to one of their songs....LOL....As for symphonic metal, I think that is true to some extent since there is that sweet keyboard in most of their songs.

Anyone who knows anything about CoB will tell you that they are a blend of Power metal and Speed metal with harsh vocals. I don't know why this page says they are this hybrid of neo-classical/prog/melo death/melo black crap because they really aren't any of those. As soon as I get unlazy I will be sure to slam you in the face with a handfull sources that show this because this nonsense pisses me off every time I go to this page.

You guys have to understand that there are people who know what genre a band is by analyzing their music, and then there's the people who don't know, but they think that they do. It's a well known FACT in the metal community, or at least amongst those who know more than the bands from Nuclear Blast and Roadrunner (no offence) that CoB is power/speed metal. Wikipedia in it's current state is a very poor place to check in for the genres, because there's so much misinformation spread by the ignorant people. I'm not being an elitist, but this is supposed to be an encyclopedia that spreads truthful information, and currently it doesn't. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 85.23.13.27 (talk • contribs) .

Well it's too bad knowledgeable people like you don't contribute more then, no? It's easy to criticise... IronC hris | (talk) 21:08, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps the knowledgeable individuals would contribute more often if their contributions weren't reverted by people who've no idea what they're talking about. The fact that the melodic black metal classification is still in the article shows that there are legions of such people out there just waiting to pounce on a genuine, useful contribution and revert it.

I'll not argue that they weren't black metal, but they had the vibe of it. They were kind of melodic though. I love the way Alexi plays but I love the sound they had before "Are you Dead Yet?". Regardless I'll support the band. But why argue about their genre? I mean if you're hear you obviously like the band. Isn't that all that matters? Metal is metal, I'll be the first to say that it HAS sprung many (too many) sub-genres. But wouldn't a true lover of metal be able to accept all types? Love it for what is not what label people like to attach.

Don't you think that "listen to what you like" -point is rather irrelevant? We're discussing apples and oranges here, not which one is better.

I don't think you can create a more accurate genre description for Bodom than Scandinavian Death Metal; although it's a legit genre it hasn't been used extensively enough to create any variation or misconseption as to its classification of bands. It's also used to describe bands such as Kalmah and Wintersun, which are the two closest bands to Bodom I know of (who are also from Finland I might add). We can all agree that even though Bodom is often mislabeled as 'black metal' they don't technically match the prerequisites, and speed/power metal is too confusing a genre label because of its vagueness. Honestly: Scandinavian Death Metal. 6 September 2006.

No, Children of Bodom has nothing to do with Death Metal, aside from occasional Blast Beats. The guitar style is rather neoclassical and power metallish. The drums are power metal. The vocals are, well, perhaps Black Metal would be the best one here.

Wintersun are same genre as Children of Bodom, by the way, Kalmah are melodic death metal. I really wonder why do people, who don't have sufficient knowledge, argue about this in an encyclopedia. It makes no sense, leave these things to the people who know. I'm not correcting the math articles either, because I know I'm don't know enough.

Children of bodom, at least now, are metalcore, the lyrics with nothing behind them, the catchy riffs, the vocals that are semi-clean/ semi-raspy, or, at least Melodic Metalcore, since it has virtuistic solos and so on, so maybey we could have 2 genres listed that may say "Melodic Death Metal [Early]" and "Melodic Metalcore [Late]"Fitser 00:55, 15 March 2007 (UTC)Fitser

^^^are you serious? They are no way metalcore. Are You Dead Yet is more melodic death metal/Gothenburg and their older stuff is more power/speed metal with some extreme metal influences.SuperRadX 19:35, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Are You Dead Yet?

I don't know if Are You Dead Yet? (AYDY) sounded any different to you guys, but i personally think that their style is changeing as they become more mainstream. I fear that within a few albums they will become like Avenged Sevenfold and become totally mainstream. Does anyone else agree with me that AYDY was a bit different from their past albums? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.98.225.114 (talk • contribs) .

I agree totally that it was different. But I don't agree with you on the rest. I actually liked this album way more than all the others (and I assure you that my tastes are not usually mainstream, please believe me :P). I don't know what I liked more, maybe the melodies, the song structure that was maybe slighlty different, or maybe because it was more like power metal than their previous albums. But not mainstream ;) take care. IronC hris | (talk) 21:58, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, AYDY is definitely markedly different from their previous recordings, which are all classic and nigh-genius. Pretty much the entire album is chug riffs and industrial arrangements. Though not entirely bad (Trashed, Lost & Strungout, If You Want Peace...), it definitely bears more than a passing resemblance to the mainstream releases of today. I think Alexi's just taking influence from different places like all the different albums, only this time he's taking them from all the wrong places. And the sad thing is he's trying to justify his actions by saying Slipknot's Subliminal Verses was one of the best metal releases ever (as if they were actually metal...), and saying that there's nothing wrong with selling out. It's sad how the typical slide from glory is happening to one of the greatest bands, and already this soon. How I pine for the days of In The Shadows... Durandal1717 02:39, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Quick word on genre controversy

I know about the heated debates about the genre of COB, but I think one thing is clear. They do not play hair metal (Twisted Sister, Cinderella, etc.) or Neo-classical metal (Malmsteen, Symphony X, etc.). As mentionned above, if there is a source, then the genre is acceptable. But please, I doubt very much that there is a single source on internet (or elsewhere) that states that COB played either of these two genres. I don't want to get involved in genre debates over this, I'm just mentionning these two pretty clear cut cases. Thanks. IronC hris | (talk) 03:51, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Honestly I say just classify them as metal now that i look more closely at their songs as they have spanned pretty much all subgenres of metal. Regardless, they are still a good band that should be more popular than they are.

If you read this interview: http://www.metalunderground.com/interviews/details.cfm?newsid=16865 Alexi himself, states "At least, I’m not able to categorize or label like that. To me, it’s just metal and that’s it. It’s not black metal, it’s not death metal, it’s not thrash. It’s like, what the fuck? We don’t spend too much time thinking about labels. They don’t mean shit anyways. For me, metal is metal, music is music. So I don’t really care about labels. But, you know, if somebody says we’re black metal or they say that we’re thrash metal, I’m ok with it. I don’t really care as long as they don’t call it power metal." Therefore I wouldn't call them power metal. Plus I don't think I've ever heard them talk about steel. =p

I do not know if CoB is power metal or not, but the band is not authoritative in this respect. When you decide whether a band is some style or not, you have to determine if the elements characteristic to the style are present in their music. It is indeed possible that a band plays a certain style of music even if they do not confess or even recognize it. The band's point of view is of course important and must be reported in the article (as it currently is), but it is just one point of view among others.Punainen Nörtti 14:03, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

This is what I think. Children Of Bodom are a Melodic Death Metal band. Let's review the styles shall we?

Power metal: Yes they have lots of melody and their music is more melodic than harmonic. Unlike In Flames and Arch Enemy the entwining 'Gothenburg' dual guitars aren't so prominent, since Alexi Laiho plays mostly solos all the time. They also make frequent use of keyboards.
Melodic Death: They have death vocals. Power metal mainly has clean vocals. Death vocals are a key element for Death Metal or Melodic Death Metal. The lyrics aren't related to fantasy/epic battles etc which is present in power metal. Instead the lyrics are focused on death and the grim reaper. The music is a lot heavier than power metal albums, especially the last two albums. And they have a lot of double bass drumming.
I don't think they have any relation to black metal, not even Symphonic Black. None of their music has a symphony playing with it. Only the keyboards give it their symphonic-esque sound. And the lyrics aren't black metal related, and the vocals are growling, not shrieking. In Flames 18:54, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

I still think they're just speed metal with harsh vocals, though you don't really need to mention the vocals in the label. Call it blackened speed, power infused speed, but virtually all of their songs fall into the speed category one way or another. They might be considered melodeath, but they're not really heavy enough to be death. Now Dispatched (sorely underrated by the way), that's a band with many similarities to CoB, but yet is heavy enough to be unmistakably melodic death, especially with their earlier stuff. Bodom is certainly heavy, but doesn't quite match the requirements for death metal, let alone melodeath. Durandal1717

They aren't black metal at all, but because a source has been found which some people consider authoritative, these people continue to include this misinformation in the article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 210.49.94.142 (talk • contribs) .

I completely agree. The closest CoB have ever gotten to black metal are the vocals, and that's it. Besides, when has mp3.com ever been a reliable source for anything, much less the blatant labeling of a much-disputed band? 69.243.28.125 04:23, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

>>>>>What? COB is not melodic death metal, because if you looked into melodic death metal, they sound NOTHING like dark tranquility, or Amon Amarth or such. COB are power metal with harsh vocals. You know that lyrics have nothing to do with determining what genre of metal a band is. I mean, Mayhem can sing about daisies, and it will still be black metal. Vocals also are not important. Look at Grave Digger, they have a clear/harsh outcome and they`re still power metal. Now, Children of Bodom not only have the same drumming, they have melodies overshadowing their music tracks. There is nothing Melodic Death about them, I mean. Every power metal band has over used DOUBLE BASS because its supposed to be an epic and a sort of BOOMING sound to the music. Gamma Ray uses blast beats, helloween uses blast beats and double bass, Nightwish uses blast beats and duble bass, so what the hell? Melodic Death = Amon Amarth, Dark Tranquility, Dismember. If you were to even bother considering COB to be a part of the death metal scene. Melodic death is NOT the one you want. It would be Gothenburg, but no. People here are so ill knowleged about all the traits, that as soon as they hear Melodic, they think 'it must be like arch enemy or something' FAIL. <<<<<<<

By the way, Children of Bodom do have neoclassical elements.

Children of Bodom are NOT remotely black metal. I am so deleting that. I really fail to see how they could be called melodic death metal, beyond alexi using unclean vocals. Kids, don't label bands genres you know nothing of... Isilioth 08:22, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Children Of Bodom

Just a small detail, but it is written "Children Of Bodom", not "Children of Bodom". This is evidence on their logo , on their web site (the website title and every bit of text in there is written with a capital "Of", when referring to the band name). Regardless of "Wikipedia standards" this article should be renamed "Children Of Bodom". ---Majestic- 20:09, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

According to the guidelines for album titles and band names:

Do not replicate stylized typography in logos and album art, though a redirect may be appropriate (for example, KoЯn redirects to Korn (band)).

--Piet Delport 14:26, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Name Change and Add

I changed the name of "Covenant" to "The Kovenant", as it was linked to the EBM/Electro band. I also added "Ancient" to the list of bands Kimberly Goss has been in. JanderVK 03:21, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Lepakko doesn't excist

I didn't find any discussion on this and it seems to be a clear factual error.

The building called Lepakko (Finnish for "bat", the flying creature) in Helsinki Finland was tore down years ago, so they can't practice there. And I doubt it never was a "state subsitized place". Subsitized by the city of Helsinki maybe, but not state. For this I have no fact though.

Wild guess is they practice at Nosturi or Kaapeli but just a guess.

Anyone actively updating this article should find a corrected info.

-eleeton

[edit] Prog Undertones

PLease don't tell me that I'm the only person that thinks CoB are a melodic death metal/prog metal cross? I fail to see any black metal in their music (unless you're including theme, but that really dosen't count, does it?). --711groove 16:07, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

As you might have already noticed, there has been an ongoing and almost endless debate on the genre of this band, and I think that most would agree that the band was very black metal during Something Wild, and not just theme-wise, although I can't say it's very prevalent nowadays. Dying2live 19:19, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Children Of Bodom = Power metal, not melodeath/black

Children of bodom has the power metal sound to thier music, just look at the definition of power metal. Speed, with pounding double bass drums and some sort of fantasy lyrics(which CoB goes under definenlty) Power metal also revoles around a certain melody. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.67.171.56 (talk • contribs).

No. Their sound integrates some power metal elements, but not the charactaristing, defining vocal style (for example).

Besides, read the comments above: Alexi Laiho has stated that he's OK with most labels, except, specifically, for power metal. --Piet Delport 14:16, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

I think its music is basically Melodic Death Metal, because it has the drums of a Death band, and its melodic because Children of Bodom has a keyboard/synth. I'm sure that isn't Melodic Black Metal. --Kuzharóm 21:05, 30 October 2006 (GMT -04.00)

How can music as heavy as CoB be classed as anything but Death Metal, and more specifically Melodic Death Metal? CoB is so much heavier than any other Power Metal band and additionally lacks the (fantasy) lyrics, mood and vocals of Power Metal. It IS NOT power metal!

Instead CoB has the vocals, drumming, mood, lyrics and heaviness of death metal and the melody of melodic death metal. How could it NOT be melodeath??? The use of an instrument (keyboards) does NOT decide which genre a band belongs to - melodeath bands can use keyboards and there are plenty of other metal bands that use them without being classified as power metal.

And black metal? Exatcly what are the black metal elements, that wouldn't exist in melodic death metal? Someone will have to provide a very good justification, otherwise I think black metal should be removed from the genre field as soon as possible. I'm starting to think some people aren't familiar with the melodic death metal genre at all... --Izzy999 14:21, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Lyrics, mood and vocals are not genre defining characteristics. Lord Worm could start singing about flowers clapping his hands with a gigantic grin, or just say that they're a boy band, that doesn't change the fact that they are still death metal! While CoB has some extreme metal influences in drumming and vocals; however, the guitars and keyboards are more akin to power or neo-classical metal, most definately NOT death metal. --November 29th, 2006

Power metal is mostly sung about steel and fantasy (such as warriors and magic etc.), while death metal lyrics: "progressions and a narrative or 'story telling' song structure" which most of their songs do. Death metal is also known for "extremely fast and complex guitar and drumwork". Look, speed, and complex druming. Power metal druming usually has constanst double bass, where Children Of Bodom's songs rarely have a consistant double bass pattern for very long.

Not all power metal is like that. Take Stratovarius for instance, Timo Tolkki's lyrical influences largely involve philosophy and the mind. --Dayn 04:26, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

"and some sort of fantasy lyrics" I ment that to be directed to the person who created this part, as in the different types of fantasy.

[edit] Image removal

I'm removing the image stating they toured in Europe that time, its not valid or it's Expired or something, I dunno. Ace Fighter 00:04, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] genre

how about we just call it melodic symphonic progressive neo-classical blackend extreme epic speed/thrash/death/power metal?

You, sir, have just solved the world's most epic genre debate. Here, have a cookie. --84.249.253.201 18:37, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Yngwie Malmsteen comments

I fixed an edit that was apparently written in good faith but not in good writing style. It dealt with Alexi's dislike of his first album. The person editing it apparently decided to comment on how much he likes "Are You Dead Yet". It's all good now, although it still needs sources for Alexi's comments on why he made Something Wild so technical. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 163.153.222.110 (talk) 16:19, 9 March 2007 (UTC).

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