Talk:Children Overboard Affair

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[edit] Title

-can i suggest that the article is titled Children overboard affair rather than scandal, both for NPOV issues, and because this is the more common title.- DONE The bellman 05:33, 1 Oct 2004 (UTC)

No objections here. Ambi 06:04, 1 Oct 2004 (UTC)

[edit] SIEV-X

There should be a See Also SIEV-X here, but that leads to another affair to document.

Actually, it does and doesn't. Read the Select Committee for an inquiry into a certain maritime incident. The Children Overboard Affair relates to SEIV-4. - Ta bu shi da yu 11:37, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Yes, I knew it was "another affair".
Mark Hurd 08:26, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Another see also: MV Tampa, and that's rather complete. Mark Hurd 18:18, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)

[edit] OK, references and sources of information

That's it for now. - Ta bu shi da yu 03:50, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Children Overboard Image

It's one of the images officially releaed by the DOD, I got it from the library here [1]. I've altered the copyright tag according to the defence media organisations specifications--nixie 04:34, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Structure

Here's how I'm thinking of structuring the article.

  1. Background
  2. "Children overboard"
  3. Select Commission

There. Simple as that. - Ta bu shi da yu 12:50, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)

  • I thought a timeline would be good too--nixie 13:07, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)
    • Ah! Definitely. - Ta bu shi da yu 14:14, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)
      • I know I'm meant to be on hiatus at all, but it's 3am and I can't sleep. Timelines generally don't go down very well on FAC - while it might be a good idea to have a section describing the chronology of events, I don't think putting it in timeline form is very wise. Ambi 17:11, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Howard never lied

Stricly speaking, Howard never lied on this one.

He didn't quite repeat the claim, he just said something to the effect that "He had a report that said that Children had been thrown overboard".

Which he did. He may or may not have been told or otherwise known that the report was true, but he didn't say that it was. Only that it was in his possession.

Regards, Ben Aveling 20:13, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

This idea is not very credible. Howard led the government through the election in which false claims were put forward by his government. It has been shown that his department had been advised that the claims were untrue, and if he was not "told", it must be said that he was complicit in his ignorance and as the claims were highly controversial, and clearly the truth was just under his nose. AFAIK - no one in his department has been held responsible for the deception which again, re-inforces Howards' complicity. --Wm 20:54, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
His department had been informed before he announced that. Anyway, as he very well knew, the public are likely to ignore prefaces like "he had a report" and regard the rest simply as an authoritive announcement of a truth. That preface is commonly used by politicians, especially Howard, so they will not be held accountable for announcing that information, despite its effect. The public are not dispassionate observers who rationally assess claims, as he was aware; therefore, by announcing it he was insinuating that it most likely is true. For such an explosive claim from a high ranking public figure, Howard was morally obliged to check its veracity carefully, which he didn't do. Instead, he announced this, on spurious grounds, and never retracted it or apologised when it was manifestly clear that it was false. He was more interested in defending his and his party's conduct.
In consideration of its import, someone ought to have been disciplined; but, as it happened, he denied anyone need disciplining. Reith, who was exposed as a liar, retired and got a high paying diplomatic job — hardly punishment.
It was blindingly obvious that Howard and Reith had acted immorally, but they got away with it because of the lack of public interest. The government increased its numbers in both houses of parliament. Such acts of dishonesty are not uncommon by incumbent parties, but the "children overboard" affair was still reprehensible. Rintrah 08:13, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
I should also add he said: "I can't comprehend how genuine refugees would throw their children overboard". It clearly refers to the children overboard claim, and for it to be relevant, he was insinuating to the audience it was most likely true. With this insinuation, however, he had a responsibility to verify it, rather than suggest it might be true.
We know what happened. Rintrah 12:16, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
Sounds like original research to me. Asylum-seekers had thrown their children overboard in earlier incidents. We cannot say that he lied unless we know that he told a deliberate untruth, and there simply is no source for this. We can report widespread suspicion, but we cannot make statements for which we have no source. --Jumbo
What it sounds like is irrelevant; in whatever case, this is a talk-page, so original research is as welcome as any other research. Most of the information I have provided — not the moral arguments — is corroborated by Senate Estimates and documents based on it. The issue is well covered and sourced in Senate documents and the media. I was explicating it and not suggesting what should be incorporated into the article. Other editors can decide the content and format of the article.
Yes, apparently they did. However, a few incidents do not warrant dehumanised profile of asylum-seekers, just as Australian criminals do not prove this nation to be a convict nation.
The issue of truth is more complex than what is true or false. Politicians rarely tell simple lies — ones which are patently false and the speaker knows to be untrue —; but they deftly deceive and manipulate the public with deception. In Howard's case, he made an inflammatory claim, with an explosive effect, apparently without having first investigating it properly within his department. Upon its reception, public hatred to asylum-seekers was inflamed. Thus, he was morally obliged to substantiate his bold claim before making it, which he had refrained. He refused to apologise for this false statement.
Reith was worse: he lied outright, as the subsequent investigations demonstrated.
If all political statements were judged on a simple truth-falsehood dichtomy, politicans could practise vile deception with impunity. Rintrah 11:36, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
Without intending any offence, but perhaps you are holding politicians to a higher standard than you would like for yourself? As Wikipedia editors we should be very certain of our statements.
You say that Howard "made an inflammatory claim, with an explosive effect, apparently without having first investigating it properly within his department." But just how straightforward and truthful is this? It seems to me that very few Australians were present at the scene of the incident, and "investigating it properly" is something that would naturally have taken time. In fact "proper investigation" is something that happens long after the event, and when government spokesmen hold press conferences to satisfy news interest, the information that they pass on is that which they have received, unless it is patently false. At the time, John Howard was passing on the best information he had been given, which in the light of previous incidents of asylum-seekers deliberately throwing their children overboard and destroying their vessels so as to force a rescue, was quite credible.
In this case, it turned out not to be the truth, due to what might charitably be called a failure of communication within the Department of Defence. I will agree that Peter Reith lied, but it is unclear as to when he confessed this to the Prime Minister. In fact, there is no evidence that John Howard was told the truth of the matter at a senior level before the election. How much was plausible denial and how much was confusion and contradiction, we may never know, but if you will recall, there were many different stories and claims put forward in the media at the time. I doubt that John Howard believed everything he read in the papers (or was told by junior staffers), and quite reasonably he would have insisted on proper investigation before he changed his version of the story.
However, what you and I might suspect is not something that properly belongs in an encyclopaedia article. We should report the facts as best we know them, and when there are differing well-sourced versions, we should give both without giving our "official" support to either. --Jumbo 13:15, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
First, let us separate the issues: my comments were in response to a user's comments above, and they were not suggestions for the article. As to how straightfoward and truthful my quote above is, it was clearly inflammatory: read transcripts of talk-back radio pertaining to the issue, and look back at the media attention to this for its effect. It prejudiced asylum-seekers as devious and immoral, even though the allegation was dubious and pertained to one alleged incident. "Proper investigation", in the context I implied, necessitates ascertaining the claim to a high degree of certainty before creating a circus-like media issue of it, by reporting it on talk-back radio, and through that channel, to the rest of the media. The other "proper investigation", in your context, does take a long time. If Howard had checked the report using reliable source, a first-hand one, he would have "properly investigated" it, in my meaning. A naval vessel was present at the scene.
To use a more extreme example for illustration, it would be immoral to report to the media a report which alleged someone murdered some person, unless the source was verified as highly credible; and just as reporting it would prejudice someone's case, making the children-overboard claim affected the community's perceptions to asylum-seekers, and it changed the parameters of debate in the 2001 election contest.
Government ministers do not passively "pass on" information to the media, and only refrain if it is patently false. If only starkly evident falsity prevented them from reporting things, they would make all kinds of vile claims carelessly. They respond to questions and choose what information is revealed, based on its veracity and media effect — for the latter, note how little local electorate issues are reported in the press gallery. Howard could have easily sought better information, as he was morally obliged to, in consideration of its effect, by commisioning staff to properly investigate it — tentatively, at least. The more credible allegations of children been thrown overboard surfaced after the inquiry into the false allegation, so no light was shed on this allegation to merit it. And even if the allegations transpired before, anecdotal evidence of these events does not make another allegation highly credible, it just adds to the suspicion.
There was indeed a failure of communication, as you put it, and a failure to verify the allegation, whereof the Prime Minister should have had more interest in, and should have at least made a preliminary check. But, if you examine the issue more carefully, imputing a "failure of communication" to an egregious mistake was government spin.
I agree with your comments on objectivity in the article, but they are irrelevant to the discussion here, which pertains to whether Howard was honest. "Official support", as you imply it, is and never was relevant. Rintrah 14:05, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
The answer to your rhetorical question but perhaps you are holding politicians to a higher standard than you would like for yourself?, if I understand it correctly, is yes, if by holding, you mean holding them responsible. I do not govern, nor do I do anything as important as that role, so if I quote an incorrect source for a media issue, I do not deserve severe reproach. The ethics of their profession should be stricter than mine, a student. The country is not interested in whether I believe children were thrown overboard. I have not taken offence; I have just been writing this while I should have been in bed, sadly. 14:37, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
Judging Howard's actions with 20:20 hindsight is not helpful. As I've pointed out, there were previous incidents of children being thrown overboard, so that part of the story was credible, and in this particular case the behaviour of the asylum-seekers was such that it was made even more credible. Children were held as if they were going to be thrown over the side, and several of the occupants jumped off the vessel. John Howard had no reason to doubt the initial story.
You seem to be saying that he should have wholeheartedly adopted the views of his strongest opponents on this issue. With respect, that is hardly reasonable. John Howard took the course of action that presented himself, his government and his policy in the best possible light without actually telling deliberate untruths. Realistically, that is what we get from governments of every political shade. As I said, very few Australians were on the scene, and for some time the messages coming back were fragmentary, confused and contradictory, especially where they had been filtered through Peter Reith's office. Getting a full and complete report from the crew of a patrol boat, especially where the vessel was well offshore and engaged in ongoing operations, took time. For example, there was a considerable gap between the initial reports of photographic and video coverage and its delivery. Expecting John Howard (or Peter Reith, for that matter) to assume that the photographic evidence did NOT verify the initial reports is a very big ask. It is reasonable that they would wait until they could view the footage before making any comment to the contrary. Even when it transpired that the footage did not actually show children being thrown overboard did not mean that it had not happened. --Jumbo 14:42, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
I suggest that we should adopt a higher standard than that of partisan politicians. Nobody expects party leaders to be impartial, least of all during an election campaign. --Jumbo 14:46, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
I am judging Howard's actions on his responsibilities at the time. Yes, there were a few incidents, which transpired later, but they do not form credible evidence for another incident — it happened a few times, so it most likely happened again. At best, the suspicion is credible, and not the story in itself.
Yes, children were held over the side, but the first-hand witnesses did not report children were thrown overboard. This, again, does not make the case credible, even in Howard's circumstances.
Why did he have no reason to doubt the story? Because Reith told him it happened? He is the leader of Australia and these kinds of statements are of national importance. He needs better evidence than a Defence Minister's word. Previous reported incidents do not constitute incontrovertable evidence it happened again.
I am not saying he had to "wholeheartly agree with the views his opponents"; I am saying he should have properily verified the story before reporting it, as it importance warrants. You do not say what you mean by the "views of his opponents". Prima facie, you argument appears strawman.
John Howard took the course of action that presented himself, his government and his policy in the best possible light without actually telling deliberate untruths. — what do you mean? The part of your sentence after the comma is missing a verb, and thus is ambiguous. By "taking the course of action that presented himself", do you mean he acted by what he thought was right, or acted expediently? Without further explanation, I do not see how this statement defends his actions.
If the messages were highly ambiguous, as you state, they should not be reported until they confidently know the truth, which should not be ambiguous. There was no urgency in reporting the incident, so there was nothing wrong in waiting until they had sufficient evidence. Making bold allegations and verifying them later is a very bad practice in politics.
Yes, I do expect John Howard not to believe the photographic evidence verifies it, because the photos clearly do not verify it, even then. It is a not a big ask: a grainy photo with people in the water does not even suggest children were thrown overboard, in any rational sense. Peter Reith cannot be defended, because he was a liar. Making bold allegations then waiting for the video for contrary evidence is not a good practice either. They ought to rely on compelling evidence first. It is not moral to announce people are evil, then wait for the real evidence to rule for or against the claim.
I do not subscribe to any party's ideology — not Labour, nor Liberal — so I do not partake in partisan politics. I do not see how your comment is relevant here. Yes, no one expects leaders to be impartial in an election campaign, but this does not mean that Howard's partiality to the idea asylum seekers were devious and wicked justified his announcing a poorly supported allegation, which was related to him by Reith. Rintrah 17:21, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Asylum Seekers vs Refugees

It is a subtle but vital distinction that must be made: the difference between an asylum seeker and a refugee. An asylum seeker becomes a refugee when the government determines that his or her claim for asylum is legitimate. Many asylum seekers are not, in fact, legitimate refugees, but instead illegal immigrants.

It therefore may be necessary to change some of the language of this article: SIEV-4 was NOT "laden with refugees," nor is it correct to suggest or imply that the Australian government "turns away refugees;" legitimate refugees are welcome and accepted in Australia.

[unsigned comment dated 08:51, 2 February 2006 by 59.167.59.150]

  • The reference to "asylum seeker" in the lead goes straight to refugee. If you consider that the actual phrase "The refugee laden SIEV-4" misrepresents or inaccurately impugns the Howard government's border protection regime, you may edit the article as you see fit (as may anyone else in turn). You may also wish to pursue this semantic distinction in displaced person, illegal alien, illegal immigration, refugee and/or refugee (disambiguation). Declare 09:32, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
Aren't there two legal definitions of "refugee" here: one recognised by international law; the other by the country wherein the person seeks asylum? Although the two may coincide, they are not necessarily the same. Rintrah 11:32, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
"Asylum-seeker" is a convenient catch-all phrase which includes both illegal immigrants and refugees, allowing one word to be used without making specific judgements. In hindsight we cannot say that SIEV-4 was laden exclusively with refugees or illegal immigrants, as both categories were found to have been aboard after investigation. Linking "asylum-seeker" directly to refugee is as misleading as linking the word to "illegal immigrant".
Perhaps we need a new article defining "asylum-seeker", giving some background as to why it is used when status is unclear? --Jumbo 13:22, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] What happened next?

At the end of the article currently is "they were reelected with an increased lower house majority, and a newfound majority in the Senate, an outcome that raises doubts as to whether the inquiry will proceed." If this is the 2004 election, have there been any developments since then? Did the inquiry begin? Telsa (talk) 09:24, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

It occured in the 2001 election . As I remember, there was a senate estimates enquiry, in which most of the facts of the article surfaced. Other than journalism on the subject, I don't think there was any more investigation. I do not remember the scope of the original enquiry either; but the outcome was that the public service was implicated by the government, with quite a lot of prevarication too, and they were adamant that no one needed disciplining.
A certain major of the armed forces "took the dive" for the government, so to speak. He testified that he had given false information to the government prior to their announcement of the claims, whereupon Howard was allowed to assert he had "torpedoed" the Opposition's argument.
Reith, the then defence minister, was shown to have lied on several occasions, and had definitely known the claim was false when it was being announced publicly. Though, he retired after the election and was given a high paying job overseas, and was not publicly criticised by his collegues.
If I remember correctly, the information had reached Howard's department before he announced the claim, but I need to double check. It is quite evident, however, he had not rigourously assessed the claim before he made the extroadinary announcement. There were another claim, announced by the government, that there was a video proving the government's account, although this was never shown. As it states in the article, the 'children overboard' was shown to be spurious, so the video was a fabrication. In an interview on Four Corners, an investigative program, Howard evaded the question of the video many times, instead referring to the pictures which had been released by the government, which only showed a few people floating in the water.
The incident has not been forgotten, and is sometimes used to point to the government's dishonesty, but it is largely historical now. There are unlikely to be any developments now because the government controls the senate, in which most significant enquiries are instigated. Public interest has waned, so there is little journalism now on the subject, except an occasional reflection.
If you want more information, you can trawl through the boring senate estimates, or, for a partisan account, read the section on the Labour party's website. I do not know of any significant investigative articles that I can point to. Rintrah 07:54, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] To what end?

To someone unfamiliar with the scandal, and with Australia's handling of boat-loads of asylum-seekers in general, it's hard to see why a claim that children had been tossed off of a boat would be useful to the government. It's also not obvious what the supposed motivation would be for the alleged act. Both points should probably be explained, perhaps in the Background section. —Eric S. Smith 13:12, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

It was useful for the marketing of their border protection policy and for their 2001 election campaign. They made border protection a central issue of their election campaign, as illustrated by the government ad in which Howard declaims "we will decide who comes into this country and the circumstances in which they come". By making this a central issue, they assumed that the issue was very important to voters, or would be if they campaigned enough on it.
Most, or at least a great part, of the focus was on border protection. Their policy was more popular among voters than Labour's; some ministers even stressed this fact in interviews.
Before the claim, most talkback radio callers expressed indignation or mistrust of the asylum seekers on the boat. For those voters who cared, most probably did not want them settled in Australia, or for them to be put in mandatory detention.
Since it was made by high ranking government ministers, the claim had a great effect on voters. It portrayed, or seemed to portray, asylum seekers as suspect. Most of the One Nation voters, who comprised a significant percentage of the voting population, were former Coalition voters. They could be swayed by racial issues, like the Children Overboard Affair.
The claim benefited the government because it appealed to One Nation voters and swinging voters who mistrusted asylum seeks. It seemingly justified their suspicion against asylum seekers and the government's policy, which was tougher than Labour's. The negative effect of them appearing to be dishonest afterwards was less than the positive effect.
The motivation was that it would stir popular sentiment in support of their border protection policy, thus giving them more numbers in the election. They didn't fabricate the claim; they merely announced something inflammatory and suspicious, without rigorously checking it first, and commented on it as if it were true: e.g., Howard: "I can't comprehend how genuine refugees would throw their children overboard".
I can't add all of this to the background because it is in argument, and wikipedia is an encyclopedia. Objective information which helps explain it should be added instead. Rintrah 15:00, 10 August 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Removed paragraph

Please appropriately justify the exclusion of this paragraph before reverting again:

The Howard reelection campaign focused heavily on "trust" and many thought this would be a debilitating blow. The government maintained that the Australian public was uninterested in the entire affair [2] and indeed they were reelected with an increased lower house majority, and a newfound majority in the Senate.

The reason given is "rv - that paragraph was not only unnecessary, but completely biased", but the premise of it has not been justified. If this paragraph is factual, I believe it is relevant, and doesn't have an unwarranted bias. Prima facie, the only POV statement to is "many thought this would be a debilitating blow", which does not have a citation to support it. "The government maintained that the Australian public was uninterested in the entire affair", I believe, is significant because it explicates the circumstances of the affair, and thus is relevant — i.e., necessary. If it is "completely biased", please show how it is not objective. If the paragraph is true, it is both necessary and not excessively biased.

Rintrah 07:19, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Because you're making a very clear implication that the fact that the government won the 2004 election vindicates the Howard line that the public was uninterested in the affair. This is pure bias. Rebecca 08:43, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
But in the previous paragraph we have Labor making the affair a "central part" of their campaign. If we include Labor's view, we should also include the Liberal view - and the result of the election. A source is given for the "not interested" statement. As this part of the article stands, we are not telling the whole story. Either include the views of both sides, or none. --Jumbo 10:23, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
I didn't write it, so I did not express anything. I think citing the government view is important to understanding the background, so the citation should stay. I have reread the paragraph and agree that implication exists and is unsupported by any argument or source. "The many thought" part should be removed too because it is weasel language. Rintrah 15:34, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
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