Talk:ChibiChibi

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Archives: 01, Sailor Cosmos

Contents

[edit] Article name

According to Google, "Chibi Chibi" gets more than twice the hits of "Chibichibi." [1] [2] Should we change the way refer to her? Should we perhaps compromise with ChibiChibi? --Masamage 23:30, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

How is it handled in the manga? -SaturnYoshi THE VOICES 09:53, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
Japanese never has any spaces between words, so it's hard to say. :] --Masamage 02:50, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
The English manga uses "Chibi Chibi". -SaturnYoshi THE VOICES 16:33, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

So, does anyone object to ChibiChibi? No space, two capital Cs. I think it's an excellent compromise. Also, we could then call her Senshi form 'Sailor ChibiChibi (Moon)' and be more consistant there. Any thoughts? --Masamage 00:49, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree to your compromise. -SaturnYoshi THE VOICES 08:58, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
Indeed, I really like the Sailor Chibi Chibi (Moon) idea.. Becuse later manga prints changed her name to Match the anime it makes more sense... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Lego3400 (talk • contribs).

Okay, since no one has protested, I will put in a renaming request to have this article moved to ChibiChibi (which is currently a redirect). That request will link back to here, so if you disagree, now is the time to speak up. The admin switching things around will see your post and take it into account. --Masamage 00:43, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Wait, it looks like this doesn't need to be officially requested, since the other page has no edit history. My request for objections has been up long enough that I feel comfortable with going ahead and moving the article. It also works the other way, so if you do disagree, you're still welcome to speak up. --Masamage 00:50, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Image

The manga image of Chibichibi should be her domestic form and the one up right now is kind of shotty. Objections to switching it out with a better image? --Hitsuji Kinno 06:43, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

I have no objections. All I did was take a .gif and convert it to .png then uploaded it again. I prefer the manga images. -SaturnYoshi THE VOICES 08:20, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
Sounds good! --Masamage 18:52, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
Okay, I took this image and cut her out of it and came up with this. -SaturnYoshi THE VOICES 01:18, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
Very nicely done, but Hitsuji's suggestion seems to be that we need a civilian image. --Masamage 01:38, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
Td-da!! Some cropping will need to be done. -SaturnYoshi THE VOICES 01:48, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
That one unnerves me by being so sexy (she's 2!), but I can't find anything better in the picture collections. The one in the red rabbit coat is adorable, but it may be too unorthodox to be a good representation. And in the Materials Collection she just looks grumpy. --Masamage 02:17, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
Another possibility: maybe we should try using a manga lead image with an anime civilian image. --Masamage 02:22, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

I took an image of her from the Materials Collection and flipped her mouth around and got this. -SaturnYoshi THE VOICES 16:46, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Merge proposal

As it has been brought up in the past, I am proposing that the Sailor Cosmos article be merged into this ones. Reasons are as follows:

  1. The Sailor Cosmos article is very short and has no potential for substantial growth.
  2. There is little risk of spoilers, because once you find out about Sailor Cosmos in the manga, you already know she's ChibiChibi.
  3. ChibiChibi can't be merged into Sailor Cosmos because she's just as much a part of Sailor Galaxia.
  4. This way we only have to go over the Sailor Cosmos info once; right now we're going over it twice.

If there are no reasonable objections, I think this should be done Thursday, January 18th. --Masamage 19:12, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Still object, structural problems abound. Rather I think that both articles need time to be fleshed out properly. To merge them, you need to address the previous objections before making up new reasons to merge them. --Hitsuji Kinno 04:58, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
Okay, what structural problems? Let's fix them. I am totally confident that we can make it work. If you like, I'll draw up a sample page. --Masamage 05:53, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
My thought is that the article would mostly be about ChibiChibi herself, in general, not delving too much into her origin. Then there would be a Sailor Cosmos section, with the picture, explaining all of that history. Nice and clean, no risk of redundancy or contradiction between the two articles. Cosmos's article is only a few paragraphs long, has no individual subsections, and honestly can't be expanded very much--also, check out just how much she doesn't need that infobox. When subsidiary to a greater topic, such subjects really are not supposed to have their own articles at all. By the WP:FICT policies, she needs to be merged with something, and I'd vastly prefer this over the minor-characters list. I think we can make it work without sacrificing any quality. --Masamage 18:10, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Lets do it! I proposed this once and you guys shot me down... Lego3400: The Sage of Time 16:55, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

I only remember it being proposed in the other direction, but it is true that the more we work on these articles, the easier it is to figure out how we should be organizing them. --Masamage 22:22, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

All right, I said I could make a sample page, and I did. Not only does the structure look okay to me, but there are a lot of other substantial improvements—for instance, it actually gives information about ChibiChibi herself, and has quite a few solid citations. Obviously once put in article space it could continue to see a lot of improvement, but one the whole I do really think that this merge would be for the best. --Masamage 22:10, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Support merge. It looks very good. Raystorm 22:21, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
Neutral right now, I probably need a little more convincing. As Masamage said, the last time a merge was proposed, it was under "Sailor Cosmos", which is tricky since she is not in the anime. Merging under "ChibiChibi" would theoretically work better. Let me chew on it a bit. JuJube 00:39, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
The major thing for me is that the Sailor Cosmos/Moon discussion was spread out over both talk pages, and the editors of each article seemed to have come to slightly different conclusions. Also, as I said, subsidiary topics aren't supposed to have their own articles unless they can sustain multiple subsections of their own. So Cosmos certainly needs to go somewhere, and putting her here solves the problem of multiple accounts of the same storyline.
I'll wait to hear back from both you and Hitsuji before I do anything. --Masamage 20:00, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
Support Its the same charcter in the manga and she can't grow beyond a stub (ChibiChibi is just barely past a being a stub) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Lego3400 (talk • contribs) 04:46, 27 January 2007 (UTC).
Mild object: As it stands, the proposal article doesn't make it clear that Sailor Cosmos and Sailor Galaxia can't be said to be parts of each other. - Malkinann 22:58, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
I'm asking for comments on the merge-idea itself, not the perfection of the sample page. Of course it will continue to improve as people contribute to it. Your meaning is hazy to me, so please, feel free to make the edit you suggest. --Masamage 04:15, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Going forward

After more than a week of no response from those who were uncertain about this, I'm sort of assuming an "either way" position. So to avoid being stuck in limbo, let's give it some more time, say until Thursday, February 8th (an even two weeks for response), and then because there have been positive responses I will feel okay about going ahead with the merge I've demonstrated here. Further discussion would be awesome too, but don't get caught up in my exact execution--it's open for everyone to edit. --Masamage 23:18, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

I've edited in the bit that I wanted said.. but perhaps we need a Venn diagram to keep track.. :P - Malkinann 23:19, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
Saw that. :) To keep track of which? --Masamage 01:16, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
Because I'm paranoid about someone deciding to hate me if I do this, let me mention that the 8th is tomorrow. ^^; Okay. --Masamage 00:49, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
All right, here goes. --Masamage 20:06, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
I am now posting in the active discussions that used to live at Talk:Sailor Cosmos, and included them in an archive linked above. --Masamage 20:26, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The Neo-Queen Serenity / Senshi question

To me, the only real barrier standing in the way of Sailor Cosmos being Usagi is the notion that Chibiusa is going to entirely replace her mother as Sailor Moon, because Neo-Queen Serenity has lost her power to transform. But I have absolutely no idea where this notion comes from. Can I have a source, please? We've gotta get this figured out. --Masamage 05:25, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

im just wondring if neo queen serenity cant become a sailor solder and sailor cosmos comes from even farther in the future ho did she become a sailor senshi aginn? sailor cuteness-ready for love 19:15, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
I'm asking something even more basic than that. I think Neo-Queen Serenity can still become a Senshi, because from what I've seen the series itself never suggests that she can't. --Masamage

[edit] Getting serious

Okay, User:128.113.232.176 brings up a really fascinating point. The image in that link does not appear on Manga Style's website, but it's the last page of the Picture Collection 5, and it's Eternal Sailor Moon holding the light from Sailor Cosmos' staff.

I have to say I'm pretty much convinced that Takeuchi meant them to be the same person. I've been looking over scans of the original Japanese from Sailor Cosmos' appearance in the manga, and it looks that way to me there, too. There's also this line of hers from Alex Glover's translation: "Back then at the Cauldron. If I had eliminated it, would the pain, would the war have ended?"

People bring up the "me of here" thing a lot, which I find extremely convincing, but the above line really does it for me. Uses of "I" may be vague in Japanese, but use of "they" and "you" are pretty obvious. If she'd meant to say someone else could have destroyed the Cauldron, she would have.

To me, the case is closed. I'm curious what others think. --Masamage 06:14, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

I think that Cosmos is either Usagi who has somehow lost everyone far in the future, or she is a reincarnation of Usagi, even as Usagi is a reincarnation of Princess Serenity. -Malkinann 00:46, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
Speculation doesn't cut it for wikipedia pages though. You and I and the rest of the people here know that. Speculating and coming up with various theories doesn't mean that it's the truth. Wikipedia's standards are that you need to stay away from speculation. If we put up theories on Cosmos, we are getting into fancruft/fan speculation territory and striking this page down from ever being featured. I believe this is counter productive to the project's main purpose.
Note that the Sailormoon.org forums are back up and there is a long discussion being started there on who she is. We are discussing sources, discounting sources and going over the whole breath of it. It should stick to discussion boards--it's a fan thing, not part of the media or the character (official) as a whole. Until there is a direct quote from Takeuchi or her staff, editor, or otherwise making an official statement, it can't go on wikipedia. I love this debate probably more than you want to know... I have all the sources, page numbers and quotes, but it's not wikipedia page material. The matter is not who she is, the matter is if it goes against wikipedia rules--which it explicitly does. --Hitsuji Kinno 17:48, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
I don't care so much about the fan-debate. Pretend no one's ever talked about this before. Does she or does she not say "Back then at the Cauldron, if I had eliminated it"?
Actually, as I see it, the most important question is whether or not there is any canonical precedent for "Sailor Moon" and "Usagi" ever being different people. (Since it's proven that Cosmos is the future Moon.) The arguments people give about Sailor Cosmos not being Usagi are that Neo-Queen Serenity has given up her power, and that Chibiusa is the future Sailor Moon.
But unless I've missed something in my research, neither of those things is true. So if Usagi is never proven to stop being Sailor Moon, then it is in fact only speculation for us to say that she does, or in other words, that Cosmos is not her. --Masamage 23:36, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
It is said by King Endymion. She lost the power to use the Ginzuishou. But it's really dicey because you have to look at how the crystal migrated. First of all there is only one ginzuishou. The crystal was always the thing that helped her transform. (I know you're going to say first series, but remember that the power of the ginzuishou was already in her.) --;; I really didn't want to get into this. I'd rather chalk it up to only Takeuchi-sensei knows. If you want a detailed explanation of the whole thing from scratch, I'll invite you, me and Dessa (the only other expert left that loves this subject to death) into a long discussion about the whole thing and we'll educate you about the beginnings of the debate, how and why certain assumptions are wrong and where the origin of all the Sailor Moon stuff goes... But seriously, it's bordering fanlore even though we have references. It *is* fact that Neo-Queen Serenity doesn't have the power to transform though. But I don't think this is the place to air it out... then you can add whatever you like and at least you'll have a balanced view of things.
Also remember that pictures lie. The original suits for the Sailors didn't work out, did they? I'm making a request to sort this off board... since I don't think this is talk page material. Is that fair? You can inundate me to death about questions, theories, etc... and I can list every last one I've ever heard, backing pages down to frame, page and frames, changes from the original to shinzoubon and for goodness sake give you the Japanese words typed out word for word and partially translated by word and referencing back from Volume 1 about the origins of Sailor Cosmos... I'm just asking for this because it takes up far too much space. Is that understandable? --Hitsuji Kinno 02:46, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
I'll answer that later. For now, when exactly does King Endymion say that? I cannot find it. What I can find is him saying, in Act 19 (per Alex Glover), "Only the Mystical Silver Crystal can save the world. But Neo-Queen Selenity is the only one who can use it, and she won't wake up." --Masamage 02:53, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
There's also the fact that Usagi can't use the crystal of the past while she's in the future. And, aha! Here's the Neo-Queen in Act 23 telling the Senshi of the past that "After I became Neo-Queen Selenity, I almost completely lost my ability to fight as a soldier." I think having found an explicit 'almost' kinda disproves this.
I did find the bit where it talks about how it's going to become Chibiusa's duty to protect the planet. So if Neo-Queen Serenity/Eternal Sailor Moon is never going to die, but her role is going to be taken over by Chibi-Moon, doesn't that mean she takes on a new role? --Masamage 03:03, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
I will agree to discussing this off-Wiki, even though I think that's not really necessary, but only if it is not cast in the light of "educating" me. I have nine years of fandom under my own belt, not to mention 3+ years of Japanese study, and I don't like being treated like I don't know what I'm talking about. -_- Is that fair? --Masamage 19:57, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
I have no intentions of treating you as a newbie. I'm just a bit worried that it will take over the talk page. Arguments about Sailor Cosmos in the past have run up to 4 or 5 pages about various theories and I'd like very much to cite references, but I'm concerned by overall length. If it's not disagreeable I'd like to add another person in the mix as well who specializes in this (She agreed before hand). We can go over things like crystal lore, timeline lore and how that plays into the whole Sailormoon stuff, even psychometry seems to play in significantly. Given the pages this would take up, I'd like to move it to a board where this would not be disturbing... and allow secondary input. Can we do that? Sailormoon.org I believe is a good place to do this. There are often debates of this sort on the boards, as well as many people from the older fandom with many references, questions, theories, and often a demand for references to back up statements. It would be more useful than say a newbie board or our respective talk pages. Newbies are less likely to know their references, and our talk pages are hard to look back and remember what was said before. I'd like to list all the references, quotes. Fair enough? We can debate it to death there. And there are people with different theories and opinions. You can see how it pans out. Given that some agree with the Sailor Cosmos is Usagi theory, descendant theory, etc, you should be able to see the variety of opinions and see how it should most likely stay off this page... (which is what I'm hoping) --Hitsuji Kinno 18:52, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
Sure. As they say in the vernacular, I'm down. As long as it doesn't get overpopulated and nasty, that sounds great. --Masamage 18:56, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
http://www.sailormoon.org/crescent/cfs-php/finder.php/2639 <--Here Nahh... it's mainly old fans there. A forum will have regulations too... so there won't be swearing and saying you're stupid, what do you mean, etc. (I dislike debates like that... I conduct them more like say School papers.) If you dislike the feeling from sailormoon.org, then we can also set up a project page just for the debate... but that seems a bit extreme. And the two people I've notified know the series inside and out and have deviating theories from mine. They have the original manga and can do citations for you. (One knows Japanese fair, the other not at all [Can cipher though]... but has read Alex Glover's Translations.) I love this age-old debate. Especially when people demand references for the opposing side. And I love collecting deviating ideas about the debate. --Hitsuji Kinno 17:01, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Reset indent User:Hitsuji_Kinno/Sailor_Cosmos_Debate I am dumping everything I know about the Sailor Cosmos Debate in there. Every fact, piece of information, or otherwise. I'm also using class material on Japanese mode of communication, misunderstanding of Japanese culture, etc that may relate to the debate. If need be, I'll even dig up information on Japanese anime at large and what anime represents for the Japanese in Japanese culture. For the question isn't who is Sailor Cosmos in our American eyes, it's who is Sailor Cosmos to the Japanese audience that it was made for. (which is often the largest confusion despite everyone being aware it's a Japanese show.) This should also illustrate fully why this debate should stay off of this page. It has *everything* from the original Japanese text, to translations, and romaji for those who can't read. I'm building up references, and particular parts of the manga beyond act 52 that people use as support (which is more popular with theories 2 and 3 than one). I can also pull up info on Takeuchi if need be to add to it. And for those who think I don't love this debate.. I have yet to see anyone type up anything like the original japanese text. (mind you that I'm still working on the original Japanese manga too...) And I've been tracking this debate in the fandom from about 1998-9 to present. So I know all the influences and quirks. I'm thorough. --Hitsuji Kinno 17:26, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

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