Talk:Chişinău

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Re "also Chiinau": is this an error caused by a missing accented letter? The Romanian name has s-cedilla (Unicode 351) or more accurately s-comma, and I think the second a is a-breve (Unicode 259).

It's time to remove Chiinau. Fransvannes 13:45 Feb 1, 2003 (UTC)

Contents 1 Let's not have a Gdansk/Danzig thing here 2 Etymology 3 Green city 4 Population 5 "Puşkin Street" 6 Music and nightlife 7 2004 census 8 Romanians / Moldovans 9 Largest Romanian urban concentration 10 Comment to Ronline's assertion 11 Census numbers 12 template 13 "Kishinev" 14 Alternosfera 14.1 Lautarii, Codreanca 15 Sister cities 16 Russian names of the districts 17 On Russian Jews 18 Stadionul Republica 19 Weird stuff 20 Population again 21 sh vs ṣ 22 Names in other languages

[edit] Let's not have a Gdansk/Danzig thing here

I realise that Moldovans may not like that English texts continue in part to use the Russian name for their capital, but the fact is that they do. On known English language domains (.edu, .au and .uk) Google gives 13.800 hits for Chisinau and 5.650 for Kishinev. There's even over 2000 hits for Kishinev on the Moldovan domain, .md. Chisinau is gaining in usage, plus it's the official name. That's why I clearly give Chisinau priority in my wording. But the fact remains that Kishinev is one of English names for the city. Zocky 18:36, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)

But isn't Kishinev just another transliteration of Russian Кишинёв ? Bogdan | Talk 18:37, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I agree (I am Moldovan, even if my name sounds Russian). Saying Kishinev is same as using Moldavia for Moldova. It is nothing but the Russian version of the name, and I think this needs to be made clear. So Kishnev should go in the parantheses, together with the other transliterations from Russian. Oleg Alexandrov 19:06, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)

It is, but it's really an issue of which name English speakers (and writers) use for the city. The fact is that Kishinev was traditionally used adn and still is to some extent. Read talk:Oder/Odra and talk:Gdansk/Danzig for extensive discussions on the topic. To give just the most common example: I'm sure there's a name for Vienna in your language different than Wien, and I'm sure that it sounds same or similar to the name for Vienna in some other language. You probably wouldn't dream of calling Vienna Wien in a text in your language, would you? Zocky 03:01, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Well, on the Gdansk page it is clearly mentioned that Danzig is the German name. I see your point about Vienna. However, I would like to make things clear as far as Chisinau is concerned:

Kishnev is the Russian name. We have been under Russian occupation for almost 200 years, with interruptions. We did not have much say about how to call ourselves or our country. The Russians called our capital Kishnev, and the term obviously stuck abroad, for the simple reason, that even now, most western people call all people from former Soviet Union simply as "people from Russia". So, the term "Kishinev" is a Russian imposed nickname, which holds its own by inertia, and will die in due time. We can accelerate its death by sticking to the correct terminology ("Chisinau") no matter what the historical baggage is. You would not want others to claim the name of your country is what your former occupiers decided it must be.

That said, I put back "Kishinev" in the category of Russian names. By this we do not negate history, or the fact that until recently "Kishinev" is what the name was thought to be, but simply state that we call our capital "Chisinau", this is our choice, and it has to be respected whatever its name was thought to be before. Oleg Alexandrov 19:52, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)

One more thing. The Kishinev page redirects to Chisinau, also, the name "Kishinev" clearly shows in the paratheses in the list of Russian names, so again, I want to make it clear, I am not playing the game "Let's pretend Kishinev never existed", I just put it in the place it rightfully deserves to be. No foreigners will have any trouble whatsoever getting to this page, nor will they be confused by the fact that we, Moldovians, consider "Kishinev" the Russian name. So, by putting "Kishinev" in the parantheses, no harm is done, and no confusion is made. This is the right way to have things, and "backward compatibility" with the Russian name is preserved. Oleg Alexandrov 20:02, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)

If you study the Gdansk and Oder talk pages in detail, you will find many examples and explanations of why you're reasoning is flawed. What Moldovians call their capital has no direct influence on what its English name is. Since this Wikipedia is in English, the name used by English speakers and writers should be used.

Names of places travel through languages and change or don't change on the way. Whether Kishinev is an "Russian imposed nickname" or just the Russian name for the city, the English writers historically gained most of the information about Moldova through Russian sources and adopted the name they used, or rather the spelling they used. Which brings me to another important point: in many cases, writers in English (or any language) prefer to stick to the spelling that's more natural to them. The natural English pronounciation of Kishinev sounds more like the original name than the natural English pronounciation of Chişinau, and let's not even get into "your weird letters" as lazy writers all over the world call those characters that require more than one keystroke on their keyboard.

So, for whatever historical reasons, a sizable proportion of English writers continue to use the spelling Kishinev, and obviously even some Moldavians think that Kishinev is the correct spelling in English. And since Wikipedia is not a usage guide, i.e. it does not prescribe how names should be used but rather describes how they are used, this article should simply aknowledge that Kishinev is an alternative English name. By all means, mark it as dated, describe why Moldovians don't like it, explain the history involved, but don't deny the facts. Zocky 05:43, 2 Jan 2005 (UTC)

BTW, Britannica says something like this: Bogdan | Talk 10:25, 2 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Chişinău, formerly Kishinyov, also spelled Kishinev, or Kišin'ov, city and capital of Moldova (...)

First, the Britannica thing implies Chisinau is the correct present name.

Second, I did look at the Gdansk talk page. Yes, there are many arguments. But the outcome was that Gdansk is considered the name of the city, and Danzik the German version.

Third, I have a National Geographic world map, issued very recently, and the name there figures as Chisinau.

Fourth, on the web page of Moldova at the CIA world factbook, the name of the capital is Chisinau, see Moldova.

All these point to one thing. Chisinau is the name of the city. Kishinev is still lingering around, but this is not the name used nowadays. This is maybe what you are used to, and feel free to use it, other people are using it too, but this does not change the actual present officially accepted name of the city.

I hope you will not also say that the name of my country is Moldavia instead of Moldova, just because this is how it used to be known during Russian times.

Looking forward to your views on these things. Oleg Alexandrov 20:13, 2 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Oleg, nobody is arguing that "Kishinev" is the only name or the proper name. They are simply noting that rather than just being "the Russian name", it used to be the most common name for the city in English, and it is still used sometimes. Englishmen call the capital of Portugal "Lisbon" while Portuguese people call it "Lisboa", Americans call the Cuban capital "Havana" while Cubans call it "La Habana", New Zealanders call the Austrian capital "Vienna" while Austrians call it "Wien"... in the case of Chisinau, both are used commonly in English nowadays. If someone travelled to the city just recently, they will say "I remember when I was in Chisinau...", but if they travelled there in the 1980s, they will probably say "I remember when I was in Kishinev...". So, nobody is arguing that the primary name of Chisinau is "Kishinev", but rather that it is a valid secondary name in English which is still used by many people, and was perhaps a decade ago the most common English name for the city. --Node 07:40, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Etymology

There's another city in Arad County, Transylvania that is named "Chişineu" that has its Hungarian name "Kisjenő" (roughly Kishyenoe), which would means in Hungarian "Small John".

But, usually, more than one placename with an etymology is found in one area and AFAIK, do not know any other name that could be of Hungarian origin in Moldova. bogdan | ^Talk 21:16, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

Actually, I found another etymology, this time an alleged Romanian word, but I couldn't find any proof of its existence in any dictionary. bogdan | ^Talk 16:27, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

Ca punct de plecare in crearea toponimului a servit un izvor. "Izvor, cismea, fintina arteziana"-aceasta semnificati sã fi avut-o stravechiul cuvant romanesc chisinau, disparut astazi, pastrat doar in toponimie from http://www.kishinev.info/history_ro/

Old village name was "Chişna-Nouă". Transormed with times in "Chişinău". serhio ^talk 13:41, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

The problems with the etymology "chişmea nouă" are:

1.) I could find no "-mea" > "-i" sound development in Romanian language. The closest reconstructed form from "chişmea nouă" would be "Chişmeneu" or "Chişminău"

2.) In Chişinău even today one of the springs is called “Burcut” (borcut: regionalism meaning "mineral water spring", originating from the Hungarian borkút):

In acelasi an a fost curatit si amenajat izvorul care se numea “Burcut”, situat pe malul sting al riului Bic. Apa lui minerala avea capacitati de vindecare, lecuire. http://www.kishinev.info/history_ro/111857/

The spring, named "Burcut", located on the left bank of the Bik, was cleaned and improved in the same year. Its mineral water had healing power. http://www.eurotravelling.net/moldova/chisinau/chisinau_history.htm

So it is highly unprobable that the name of the city has anything to do with a spring, as it would have been simply named Burcut - see the Transylvanian places satul Borcut (or. Târgu Lăpuş, jud. Maramureş), satul Valea Borcutului (or. Sângeorz-Băi, jud. Bistriţa-Năsăud), satul Valea Borcutului (or. Baia Mare, jud. Maramureş) --Sattila 20:22, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Attempting to translate the above, please correct the text if I'm wrong, there is one construct ("aceasta semnificati sã fi avut-o") I'm not sure of and one word ("stravechiul") I don't actually know, although its etymology is clear. -- Jmabel | Talk 17:57, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

A spring served as the point of departure for this toponym. [It then give several synonyms for "spring", including cişmea which is of Turkish origin, as in Cişmigiu Garden in Bucharest, and then goes on...] This signifies that there would have been a former Romanian word chişinau, now disappeared, remaining only in toponomy.

"Stră-" is a prefix particle (from Latin "extra") that indicates a great distance either in time or in space. străvechi = very old, ancient; strămoş = distant ancestor; a strămuta = to move at a great distance; străfund = down deep; străin = foreigner; stră-stră-bunic = great great grandfather, etc. :-) bogdan | ^Talk 20:37, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

Thanks! So I guessed more or less right... -- Jmabel | Talk 03:59, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

Bogdan, Serhio, (and Sattila if that's not just a sockpuppet: 2 edits to this article, but no other edits ever): Sattila recently made some pretty major edits to this without citations. I've done what I can to beat this back into shape, but could really use some help with citation and sorting it out. Some of what Sattila added is close to, but doesn't quite match the information at http://www.kishinev.info/history_ro/. -- Jmabel | Talk 08:05, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Dear Jmabel, believe me, if we use Jenő in Hungarian as a christian name (and not as the name of a tribe), it is not John, it is Eugen (it is a fact)! I know because I am a Hungarian from Romania, and I speak quite well both languages.

If it is Romanian "Eugen", the English equivalent is "Eugene". -- Jmabel | Talk 04:02, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

Dear Bogdan, you say "do not know any other name that could be of Hungarian origin in Moldova". Although they may exist, the most well known is Orhei which may derive from the Hungarian Várhely (pronounced Varhei - fortified place). For the va > o change see varos (Hung.)> oras (Rom.), Varad (Hung.) > Oradea (Rom.). I earned my master in socio-etno-linguistics in Cluj, Romania, and there the va > o shift was tought as one of the few certain points (aggreed by both sides) of Romanian-Hungarian interaction.

Yes. I was wrong: I found out later about Orhei. In the other side of the Prut there are more toponyms, including Szűcsvár/Suceava and possibly Bacău. (Etymological list of counties of Romania)

Orhei does fit phonetically, when comparing with the Udvarhely > Odorhei. bogdan 11:51, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

EREMIA Anatol, in his work: TOPONIMIA REPUBLICII MOLDOVA: STUDIU ETIMOLOGIC, LEXICAL–SEMANTIC ŞI DERIVAŢIONAL; PRINCIPII DE REGLEMENTARE, Chisinau, 2004, ACADEMIA DE ŞTIINŢE A REPUBLICII MOLDOVA, INSTITUTUL DE LINGVISTICĂ, also mentions toponims like Făgădău, Feredeu, Ghidighici, Heleşteie, Micleuşeni, Şendreni, Tăuri, which he considers Romanian toponyms having at the root regionalisms with Hungarian origins, or antroponims of Hungarian origin (he also considers orhei (fortified place) a regionalism deriving from Hungarian, although I couldn't find it in any Romanian dictionary of regionalisms).

Please read this as a constructive criticism, as the whole article about Chisineu is written in a professional manner, and it would be a pity if there would remain in it texts like c(h)işmea nouă > chişinău which cannot be defended in liguistic terms.

Actually both "Chişineu" (of Crişana) and "Chişinău" (of Moldova) fit Romanian phonetics, the variability e/ă being akin to the one in the word Dumnezeu/Dumnezău (Dumnezău is used in parts of Moldavia and Maramureş). bogdan 11:51, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

You are right. Also in Crisana, there is an Ineu - Inău alternation in pronunciation - so it is highly presumable that the names Chişineu(-Criş) and Chisinău are related. Sattila 13:19, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Although it is your choice - now I won't edit the article, not to be acused of (hungarian) nationalism.

The reason I edited the article is that I consider Hungarian-Moldavian confluences one of the most exciting fields of linguistics and history (see the mistery of the huge amount of regionalisms having Hungarian origins, Atelkuzu - see Wikipedia article - the former country of Hungarians located in Moldova, the ceangai - csango people, the medieval Hungarian village of Ciuburciu - Csöbörcsök etc. etc.

Yours Attila

I have no particular subject-matter expertise here; I'll just keep attempting to edit for style, etc., and asking questions when I need to understand something. -- Jmabel | Talk 04:03, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

I rephrased/shortened my contribution about the possible connectin with Chisineu-Cris. Reason: I just found out that Jenő/Eugene as Christian name has been used in Hungarian only from the beginning of the 19th century. As the name of this settlement from Crisana can be documented from the 14th century, the only etimology possible is from the Jenő tribe - confirmed by absolutely all Hungarian /and the majority of Romanian/ ethimologists. --Sattila 16:33, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Green city

Where did this claim arise: "Chişinău is considered one of the greenest cities in the Europe". I've never heard this claim before, and I find it quite hard to believe, considering that Chişinău is one of Europe's poorest cities (and hence can't really invest in environmental protection), but at the same time it is quite industrialised with USSR-era industry. Or is it not? I've never been there. Ronline 08:37, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

• I've never been there, either, but I've heard from people who have that it's a rather lovely city. No idea on "considered one of the greenest cities in the Europe": if it doesn't say considered by whom or whether "green" means "lots of plants" or "ecologically responsible" or <joke>"Crawling with lizards"</joke>, it isn't really worth much. -- Jmabel | Talk 04:04, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

What does "poorest" have to do with the fact that there are trees and other kinds of vegetation everywhere? People do not go around Chisinau cutting down the trees.. The money Chisinau has for environmental protection is enough to keep it the greenest city. If some industrial city spends billions on environmental protection and has only 100 trees spread around the city, that doesnt make it greener than Chisinau, which might not afford such money, but it surely affords to keep it clean and green. If its the greenest: hurray! if it is not anymore: well it sure is green enough, greener than any Romanian cities I have seen (including the capital city of Romania).

Chisinau is, or at least was considered the greenest city of Europe because of its flora. In fact Chisinau's Botanic Garden and the parks in the city are very known for their vegetation.

Where is this information from ? =) I live in Chisinau, and I've been to some parts of Western Europe, really, one of the greenest? :) I wouldn't say so :) 212.0.211.204 11:58, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

Well maybe not in the last years. I am sure "the greenest city" is still valid but I might agree that, because of economical problems, it is bearly holding together. And did you consider the size of Chisinau compared to those West European cities? It is the greenest because the ratio vegetation/square miles is probably the highest in Chisinau. Sometimes the eyes do not see the whole picture.

Well, there are trees usually at both sides of a road, okay, but does that automatically entitle it to be the "the greenest city" ? :) This is a statement written in the introduction, thus I would expect there to be at least a source classifying it as "the greenest city", just saying it is the greenest, doesn't make it so. But if other editors find it to be okay... --Just a tag 15:07, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

I think such a statement needs to be backed up by sources or at least detailed explanation on the talk page. I have never before heard that Chişinău is a particularly green or environmental city. Considering it's lack of concern for environmental protection (this is a trend seen all over this part of the world, not only in Moldova), the funds for making it green are simply not there. However, as I said above, it remains quite industrial, which would reduce it's "green nature" even further. Sure, it might be greener than, say, Bucharest, or Prague, or Madrid or whatever, but that doesn't make it "one of the greenest cities in Europe" (see some German and Northern European cities for that). Ronline ✉ 11:10, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

While I never heard people calling Chisinau "Europe's greenest city", I did hear the phrase "Europe's greenest capital". Compared to other built over European capitals, the city does indeed look greener. Not because of effective environmental policy, but rather due to the slow pace of industrialization and few building initiatives. However, this trend has changed in recent years, the city has lots of construction sites now, often at the expense of the environment. --Illythr 17:31, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

This confusing statement should be amended. While someone familiar with the area might be able to understand the author's intent--lovely climate, lots of trees, parks, etc.--to English speakers the phrasing implies a political philosophy that isn't there. Put another way, we all know that Chisinau is not run by environmentalists, it does not have a recycling system to compare with that of Berlin, and city hall is not run by solar power (etc., etc...) However, users unfamiliar with Moldova might not. Alternate phrasings anyone? Simply adding a few words to introduce the sentence might make it clear in what sense "green" is to be taken: "Because of Moldova's lush climate..." Jamason 02:49, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Population

Population was changed from 707,000 to 857,000 with no source cited. But the old number didn't have an apparent source either. Does someone have a citation for the population? -- Jmabel | Talk 06:07, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

And now it is up to 918,211! What is going on here? -- Jmabel | Talk 06:50, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

I have found some source on the Internet [1], it seems it could be believed, and updated info on the page. --Monkbel 10:24, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

That page actually gives some rather confusing numbers. Under "Counties": Chişinău 374,678, Chişinău Oraş (which is to say Chişinău City) 716,530. Then under "Principal Urban Areas" Chişinău 601,000, which is the number you put in the article, but which sounds low to me. Does anyone understand just what each of these three numbers represents? All things being equal, I'd be incling to use the Chişinău Oraş number, 716,530, but I'd rather hear from someone who understands what is going on. -- Jmabel | Talk 05:56, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

The correct data is here: http://www.statistica.md/recensamint/Date_prel_Recens_din2004.doc , under Municipiul Chisinau, you see urban area: 643,517, that's the correct number. 212.0.211.204 17:50, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] "Puşkin Street"

What is the argument, when writing in English, for writing "Puşkin Street" instead of "Pushkin Street"? Presumably it is named after Aleksandr Pushkin, but English-speakers who don't know Romanian/Moldovan may not recognize "Puşkin". We're obviously not writing it in Romanian/Moldovan or it would be "Calea Puşkin". -- Jmabel | Talk 09:21, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

No idea, Pushkin Street sounds reasonable. --Just a tag 13:18, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Music and nightlife

The Music and nightlife section looks like a paraphrase of the corresponding section of the Bucharest article. So I'm asking: is this based sources of some sort? -- Jmabel | Talk 04:20, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

It's very vague, better to mention known bands like O-Zone (been #1 for quite a while in Europe), Zdob si Zdub (Eurovision Contest). --Just a tag 09:23, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

Zdob şi Zdub certainly merit mention; they're the only Moldovan band I know, and I doubt I'm anything like alone in that. Could someone else take on this section? I really don't know much at all about music and nightlife in Chişinău, I just recognized the prose instantly as a near-copy of another article. -- Jmabel | Talk 02:26, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

You mean you don't know O-Zone ? ;) --Just a tag 16:18, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Heard them a few times (on the radio in Romania); I was there in 2001-2, I don't think they were very big yet then. I don't have any of their albums, never heard them live, and really don't have any of their stuff "stuck in my head". I'm not sure I'd even recognize them if I heard them. But back to the article, I take it you know your way around this, could you rewrite the section? -- Jmabel | Talk 01:36, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

This article sounds too much like a reappropriation of the Bucharest article. There's nothing wrong with that, but a lot of the statements need to be verified, if not by sources at least by some explanations on the talk page. They include:

• "Economically, the city is by far the most prosperous in Moldova and is one of the main industrial centres and transportation hubs of the region."

Ummm, exactly Bucharest had this statement (replace Moldova with Romania) :) Maybe the city is the most prosperous in Moldova, but I really don't think it's a main hub of the region (which in this case, is Eastern Europe, made up of MD, UA, BY and RU.

• The city is home to thirty-six universities.

Really!?!

• Since the collapse of the Soviet Union, the city has become a relatively lively and well-appointed capital, with a much higher standard of living than most rural areas.

Any sources for this? Considering that Moldova is Europe's poorest country (even though I've heard – and seen from photos that – Chişinău is quite well off).

• Chişinău is home to Moldova's largest recording labels, and is often the residence of Moldovan, and more recently Ukraine, musicians.

Any examples of Ukrainian musicians moving to MD?

On another note, I really love the photos. Ştefan cel Mare Park looks absolutely great! Ronline ✉ 11:15, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 2004 census

Please keep the official data. This may be verified here (only in romanian). --Zserghei 14:28, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

People keep changing the numbers. No one seems to be giving decent citations. The citation given here is to a page that links to over a dozen zip files. I don't doubt that the data is in there somewhere, but I'm not going to take the 20-30 minutes it might require to find it. Would someone please put the definitive information in the article, with citations clear enough that others can verify it? Thanks. - Jmabel | Talk 06:22, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Romanians / Moldovans

Given that the Moldovan census gives separate nationality counts for "Romanians" and "Moldovans", why do people keep eliminating the distinction in the article? Yes, I agree that the distinction is tendentious, but it is official, and it seems to me that we should report it accurately. - Jmabel | Talk 06:24, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Do you trust a communist Census? I don't. When you say Moldovan you say Romanian. But saying that Moldovans and Romanians are different is a very big mistake. Letting the text as separate will support this mistake. --Chisinau 12:29, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

In addition to that, the phrase The city is considered to be the second largest Romanian urban concentration in the world after Bucharest. looks VERY strange with the census data on Romanians being but 4.4% of Chisinau's population. --Illythr 17:40, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Largest Romanian urban concentration

"The city is considered the largest Romanian urban concentration in the world after Bucharest." Can someone please explain how this statement is neutral? The above can have two meanings:

• It can be interpreted as Chişinău being the second largest city in Romania, which is highly misleading, or that Moldova is a part of Romania

It's not in Romania but used to be in former Romania, i.e. greater romania.

• It can be interpreted that Chişinău has the second-largest ethnic-Romanian population in the world, which is controversial, considering that about 4% of the population declared themselves as Romanians. It is very confusing for readers unless the situation is clearly explained somewhere in the article (i.e. that Moldovans and Romanians are considered to be the same ethnic group). But, in any case, it is controversial to claim that someone who is "Moldovan" should be allocated Romanian ethnicity.

It may be, so I see no objection in having there. Now again about the results of the census doesn't says anything new. Are moldovans from Iasi romanians or not? If only by this statistics, and we know that Moldova is not the champion of democracy and any census is bias, I still wouldn't trust them and still inclined to believe that Chisinau is the second largest romanian-population city in the world after Bucharest. --Chisinau 12:22, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Also, I really don't see what the above statement contributes to the article. Ronline ✉ 09:58, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Comment to Ronline's assertion

...But, in any case, it is controversial to claim that someone who is "Moldovan" should be allocated Romanian ethnicity...(Ronline)

Now if we judge like that we go nowhere Ronline. How many americans there are in Los Angeles? Should be allocated to American ethnicity? A Moldovan is Romanian. Punctum. A russian is not Moldovan but russian. Decide once and for all, where you count them, either to Romania either to Russia. --Chisinau 12:27, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Well the point is that if they declare themselves as "Moldovan" in the census, they are counted neither to Russia nor to Romania, but rather to the Republic of Moldova. In any case, this isn't about nationality but rather ethnicity (since most Chişinău residents are obviously not Romanian nationals). In ethnic terms, the Moldovans are obviously not Russians. I don't think the issue is about that, since it would be fair to say that Chişinău is the city with the second-largest Eastern Romance population. But since they declared an ethnicity separate to Romanians, it is, from an abstract point of view, quite tenuous to allocate them Romanian ethnicity. Ronline ✉ 00:10, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Well I am sorry to brake it to you guys but Bucharest has a pop of almost 2 mil people, Chisinau of about 650.000 - 700.000 people and Iasi a pop. of about 350.000. So you do the math commarades:))) Have a nice day.Constantzeanu 05:34, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

The issue here is NOT about statistics at all. It is clear that Chişinău has a larger population than any Romanian city except Bucharest. It is also clear that its population is majority "Eastern Romance" (Vlach). The problem is over whether to classify Moldovans as Romanians. Personally, I would say they are the same ethnicity. However, the statement must be explained more deeply considering the controversy of the situation. One cannot say that Chişinău is the second-largest Romanian urban area when in the census data we list Moldovans as the largest ethnic group. In any case, saying this is only one POV - the other POV is that the city has in fact a small Romanian minority, with the other Latin peoples declaring themselves as Moldovans (in the same way as some Montenegrin cities have a Montenegrin majority and a small Serb minority). So, I think the statement could remain only if it moved from the lead section and put into context, in the Demographics section. Ronline ✉ 08:49, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

To be honest I do not think it is correct to declare the Moldovans as Vlachs. As far as I know there are no scholar that have made that distinction so far. About the statement, I think it is a good piece of information which deserves to be kept in the leading section :)

About who declared himself Romanian and who declared himself Moldovan, I would also like to point out that the international observservers have issued a warning to those who plan to make use of this ref. results since obvious infractions have been commited by the censors when it came to language and ethnicity. I am not making this stuff up, you can read it in any major Moldovan and even some Romanian newspapers. Many organizations have taken this warning seriously and have presented Moldovans as Romanian so in fact this leading sentence is true. Constantzeanu 18:20, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Census numbers

As explained many times in several articles, giving the numbers different from the ones provided by census and than claim that these are actual numbers is the false path. Census numbers should be presented as they are and no one is interested in seeing how Wikipedians can correctly add/subtract/combine them according to their tastes. Valid and referenced criticism of the census may be given in the articles but not altering the hard numbers provided by census, especially with the wording "Census held in 2004 reports the following ethnic composition". We should give what census reports exactly how it reports. Anything else is simply a falsified quote. --Irpen 00:51, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] template

I used the Romanian city template, instead of the Moldovian city template. I did this solely for the reason that the first template is more pleasing aeasthetically. No reference to Romania appears. I did not wish to change the Moldavian city template as I was afraid I would mess up other articles, and then that's not really necessary when this other template is readily available. I am simply posting this to pre-empt any possible reverts on the basis that the template has the word Romanian in it, I made the change for purely practical reasons and in the visual effect no link can be made to Romania. TSO1D 01:43, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for attention to the template. Moldavian version was old and really looked ugly, but Romanian city template has a number of disadvantages: it links to the Counties of Romania instead of Counties of Moldova, default census is not 2004, as it should be for Moldova. It has no dialing code. I have rewritten {{Moldavian cities infobox}} correcting all these issues, added foundation date, made some parameters optional and other minor improvements. If you have any suggestions on the template, express them here. Maybe some additional fields are needed. --Zserghei 09:51, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Ok that works great. TSO1D 20:12, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Kishinev"

I agree with describing Kishinev as a "former" English-language name for the city used mostly in historical contexts. Just as an aside, though, in the U.S. at least, the city probably comes up more historical contexts than otherwise. Few Americans are familiar with present-day Moldova. Probably the most common connection of anyone in the U.S. to this region is historical: a lot of Jews emigrated to the U.S. from (historic) Moldavia, no small number of them from Chişinău and environs, especially after the 1903 and 1905 pogroms. - Jmabel | Talk 22:23, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Alternosfera

I'm trying to avoid an edit war here, but I see that TSO1D added back something I removed.

1. Why the mention of Alternosfera when no other musical group is named; not even Zdob şi Zdub, who I believe are better known; not even any notable classical music group, of which I'm sure a national capital has at least one.
2. What is the basis for calling them "very appreciated"? By whom? Seems POV to me, even more POV than saying someone is "famous".
3. Comparing some other cities, New York City does not mention particular musical groups; Seattle has a ăparapgraph or two, but it is a city where music and other arts are pretty much what "put it on the map"; oddly, New Orleans, another city best known for music (and maybe food) mentions only Louis Armstrong by name (and that in a picture caption); Manchester has a long list (like Seattle, a city very known for music); Bucharest mentions four contemporary groups, as well as the Philharmonic and the Opera (and its remarks on boy bands, etc. seem to have been almost slavishly copied in the present article); Iaşi mentions none.

   • I just stumbled across this talk page, and here is my belated response. I probably added the info back during a revert of someone else, personally I don't care much for these bands and I agree that the wording you describe would violate NPOV. TSO1D 02:18, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

I'd love to see a good paragraph on current bands in Chişinău, and certainly something on classical groups performing there, but the singling out of one band, especially as "very appreciated" but with nothing to indicate what their music is like, smack of promo or fandom. - Jmabel | Talk 22:42, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Lautarii, Codreanca

More ostensibly "world-renowned" groups have now been added: "Lautarii" and a dance group, "Codreanca". The first, of course, almost defies searching, because of the word lăutarii itself swamps it, as well as a film by the same name and a song by Spitalul de Urgenţa. But I would think that if this group were world famous, at least one of the first Google hits on the word would relate to the band, and if one did, I missed it.

Googling on "Codreanca", only two of the first 20 hits seems even possibly to relate to the dance group: a German-language remark on a forum page about a dance school of that name in Chişinău, and one page from Molodova mentioning either the group or the school in terms of a local dance competition.

So does anyone have citations to bear out "world-renowned" etc.? - Jmabel | Talk 16:04, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sister cities

Is there a reliable source for the sister cities? Yerevan was recently changed to Cracow with no explanation. There is no cited source to sort out which is correct. - Jmabel | Talk 22:08, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Russian names of the districts

Through some path obscure to me, the Russian names of the districts of Chişinău had found their way in this article. An anonymous user removed them but was reverted by Khoikhoi. I reverted again, for the reason that I don't believe that having the Russian names for the districts is necessary on the English Wikipedia. The name of the city is given in Russian in the name section, however giving the Russian translations for the districts as well seems a bit over the top. TSO1D 02:22, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I thought they were in Moldovan Cyrillic. I see what you're saying now. :-) —Khoikhoi 02:24, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] On Russian Jews

"The Russian name gained international currency because of Russification during periods when the city was under Russian control (first by Imperial Russia and then for over four decades by the Soviet Union) and because of Russian speakers throughout the world, including many Russian Jews in the English-speaking world."

The statement above strongly appears to be politically charged. First of all, it is not at all clear what do so-called "Russian Jews" have to do with the frequent use of the word "Kishinev" in the English-speaking world (it isn't clear how do "Russian-speakers" influence English-language lexical preferences, either). I'm for one not sure that emigre "Russian-speakers" use this word with any frequency even speaking in Russian, not to mention in English (after all, the city is marginal in world affairs and most English-speakers don't even know its name or discuss it) - unless they personally come from this city. And here is the second problem: are you implying that Jews coming from Chisinau are "Russian Jews"? Well, they are "Bessarabian Jews" (the way they call themselves), "Moldovan Jews", whatever, but not "Russian" unless you seriously think that Chisinau is part of Russia, hence the adjective. If you speak in historical perspective, then Jews who immigrated to the US from the Russian Empire Kishinev or before 1940 Chisinau surely didn't call the city Kishinev - they weren't even Russian-speaking and in their language the city is called "keshenev" - why isn't his latter name an accepted English usage? I think to be impartial this sentence should be changed. - Sergiu

I think the original author meant that when the pogrom of Jews (who were then still subjects of the Russian Empire) in the city was publicized in the foreign press, the name for the city was given as Kishinev. I don't know how valid a theory this is, and it might be original research, so if you want to remove the statement, I would have no problem with it. TSO1D 00:52, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

I believe Sergiu is referring to the Bessarabian Jews. Also note that we have the article at Kishinev pogrom, not Chişinău pogrom–because that was the official (and most common) name for the city at the time. BTW, my guess is that the Bessarabian Jews spoke Yiddish natively, and some probably aslo knew Romanian and Russian as well. —Khoikhoi 01:00, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Stadionul Republica

A recent edit without summary or citation changed the capacity of Stadionul Republica from 8,009 seats to 18,009 seats. I have no idea which is correct. Does someone have a citation? - Jmabel | Talk 06:00, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

It's 7687 per http://www.uefa.com/competitions/EURO/Teams/Team=57160/index.html. TSO1D 21:09, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Weird stuff

Just noticed this:

After the war the head of the Soviet Union, Joseph Stalin, claimed the area around Bessarabien, to be in his own nation's sphere of influence.

Er, Bessarabien was within the Georgian sphere of influence? :-) --Illythr 02:45, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing that out, I can't believe no one has noticed that until now. I tried to clean up the passage but ended up completely removing most of it as it was either non-sense or irrelevant. TSO1D 02:55, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Population again

I hope I did right here. I went back to an earlier version by TSO1D, the same generally reliable editor who had edited last. The most recent exchange with an anonymous vandal (or statistic-warper) had left several longstanding numbers changed, and had replaced a link in a reference with a URL that gives a 403 error. If I didn't get this right, then, please, let's fix it going forward from here with edits that have very specific edit summaries, so it is clear where we have a reliable baseline version of this section. I will leave a note for TSO1D on his user talk page. - Jmabel | Talk 00:21, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Hi Jmabel, this is what happened. The anon introduced some strange changes and at first I reverted him. But I thought he could be right, so I went back to the source at http://www.statistica.md/recensamint.php?lang=ro and looked at the numbers for Chişinău. I found that although the vandal's numbers were clearly off, a revision did take place on the site and I introduced the new numbers. As for the site, the name of the excell file changed, so just took the ending off and let the page go to the main repository of census data. TSO1D 00:25, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Great! Wonder why it gave me a 403 error. - Jmabel | Talk 07:30, 1 December 2006 (UTC) Answer: because you cut off too much of it in the article. You left only http://www.statistica.md/recensamint/, which doesn't work. I'll correct it. - Jmabel | Talk 07:32, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Oh thanks, for fixing that, I didn't notice that I cut off too much. At first I thought you meant that you got a 404 on the old version. TSO1D 12:40, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] sh vs ṣ

Why is Chisinau, written with Ṣ, isn't this an English language wikipedia, There is no Ṣ in "Engliṣ" . I am just being curious, and would like a link if this has already been discussed. Thank you Comradevik 02:04, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but I don't quite understand your question. The name of the city includes diacritics (the ş) as that is the official spelling of the name. Wikipedia policy for place names is that unless a common English variant exists, the official native version should be inserted, and in this case, that is Chişinău. TSO1D 03:42, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Names in other languages

Can we employ the Names of European cities in different languages: C-D some way? --Maxim Masiutin 05:20, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

I don't understand your question (and given that it has been over a month and no one has answered you, I'm probably not alone). Could you give some indication what you have in mind? - Jmabel | Talk 02:31, 10 March 2007 (UTC)