Image talk:Chinese language tree.png

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This is far from correct. --- by Liang Huang (lhuang3@seas.upenn.edu)

How far from correct?

It is definitely correct in making Wu (eg Shanghainese) and Min (eg Taiwanese, Hoklo) the earliest two Chinese languages to branch away. Both Wu and Min have extensive and complicated tone sandhi (in Wu's case, tones are typically neutralized completely), and many scholars suspect an Austronesian substratum. What the chart fails to show is that Wu has had extensive contact with Mandarin in history, and so Wu and Mandarin share a large amount of vocabulary and other structures. Also, the relationship between Wu and Min is closer than the diagram depicts. Cantonese and Hakka are much younger dialects, having branched away far later than Wu and Min.

How can Qi in Shandong evolve into Min in Fujian? That would compare to Swedish evolving into Maltese.

Similarly, how can BaShu/ShuYu in the isolated western Sichuan basin evolve into Yue/Cantonese in Guangzhou at the southern edge of China?? How can Xiang be the farthest from Bei/Mandarin? I would say Min would be the farthest. Either Min or Yue/Cantonese.

There was not a common "Zhou" language. Before the unification of China in 221 BCE, there were dozens of languages in the warring states, and its many city-states. The first common language would be the language enforced by the Qin government of the unified China.

What is Hubei Yu, the dialect of the Hubei province? How can that form it's own branch.

- The tree form of this chart can be misleading. As indicated in the original chart [1](I copy&paste&snapshot it), it doesn't really show "time" as clearly as implied in the tree chart. Rather, it roughly shows the merges (and branching-offs) of different "dialects". (AND a lot of DOTS showing approximation.) ---Djyang 16:34, 15 Jul 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Error

- One thing I found [2]: Wu was one of the origins of Hakka. This doesn't show clearly (or simply an error?) in this tree chart. ---Djyang 16:17, 15 Jul 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Translation?

OK. Do you think that this snapshot is good enough to base the illustration on? If so I'd like to make a nicer image for the article. Could someone please provide a translation of the words in the image? Thanks! Lupin 21:19, 15 Jul 2004 (UTC)

-It is the exact same one that the tree chart based on(see the image page). I simply copied and pasted it, then removed extra blanks. ---Djyang 03:10, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)

-That is, the translation of those words are already in the tree chart. ---Djyang 03:14, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)

What about the words in < > above the tree? Lupin 14:43, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)

OK, I've tried to make a better diagram. How's this?

Some errors:

Starting from right-to-left.

The last two "Chu" should be "Xiang".

Take off the "yu" meaning "speech" in "Bei yu" (Northern speech), either that or add "yu" to all of them. Take off the "yu" in "Shu yu" and "Heibei yu". Take off "yu" in "Zhongyuan yu", "Guanzhong yu" and "Guanzhong yu".

It should be "Guandong", not "Guangdong". It should be "Guanzhong", not "Guangzhong".

Min is a supergroup, not a group of it's own, it is divided into four groups. Min bei(Northern Min), Min zhong(Central Min), Min nan (Southern Min), and Min dong (Eastern Min). These divisions are as different as that between Xiang and Gan.

Two modern day dialectal groups are left out. "Ping", and "Huai nan". Some linguists dispute "Huai nan"(aka "Jiang huai") as being a separate dialectal group, but most accept Ping as a separate dialectal group.

I don't think you should switch between Chinese Hanyu Pinyin and English "Cantonese", "Hakka". Otherwise, you might as well change "Bei" to "Mandarin", "Wu" to "Shanghainese", "Min" to "Hokkien"...

In my opinion, you should use the Hanyu Pinyin terms which refer to the dialectal group in general and not a specific city or province "Shanghai", "Hokkien".

Keep the Hanyu Pinyin "Yue" for "Cantonese", "Kejia" for "Hakka".

Overall, I disagree with this "tree". Moreover, I disagree with posting this misinformation on here. Chinese was influenced from three separate branches of languages. Over the millenia, the language of the plains became dominant "Zhongyuan". "Zhongyuan" intermixed with the surrounding languages. The influence starts from the north, and influences the mid-plains, and the mid-plains influences the southern provinces.

Hu-Di ("Altaic") converges to Zhongyuan. Di-Qiang (Sino-Tibetan) >>> Zhongyuan, influenced by Hu-Di and Yi-Yue. Yi-Yue (Austroasiatic, Austronesian) converges to Zhongyuan.

Although much of the languages of the southern provinces were heavily influenced by the northern immigrants' "Zhongyuan", ("Wu" was influenced the most), most of the southern languages still has a distinct boundary surrounded by mountain ranges. They are all of the original Yi-Yue:

Yi-Yue Austroasiatic "Yu yue" heavily sinicised, develops into Wu. Yi-Yue Austroasiatic "Shan yue" sinicised, develops into Hui. Yi-Yue Austroasiatic "Min yue" sinicised, develops into the Min supergroup. Yi-Yue Austroasiatic "Nan yue" sinicised, develops into Yue, with heavy influences on Ping. Yi-Yue Austroasiatic "Luo yue" sinicised Yue, and the Min supergroup, with heavy influences on Kejia.

Yi-Yue Austronesian "Miao man" sinicised, develops into Gan. Yi-Yue Austronesian "Jing man" sinicised, develops into Xiang.

Kejia is due to early speakers of Zhongyuan migrating south. Huai nan(aka "Jiang huai") is due to later speakers of Zhongyuan migrating south. Ping is due to the government repeatedly dispatching troops/ colonists south since the 11th century, in order to gain a foothold in the southern prefectures/ invasion of Vietnam.

Zhongyuan is the speech of the core of the Chinese government. Other cultures were assimilated into the Zhongyuan language/culture, and the Zhongyuan language/culture was influenced by the surrounding southern and northern languages and cultures. Different names were given for the preferred speech of the court. In the Zhou dynasty, it was called "Ya yan", in the Qing dynasty it was called "Guan hua" (Mandarin).

In other words, it shouldn't be called "Guan hua" "Bei yu" or "Mandarin", but "Zhongyuan".