Talk:Chernihiv

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If anyone knows who the local ruler of Chernihiv was during Ilya Muromets's time, please note it there. -- Sy / ^(talk) 20:56, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC)

• Provided that you tell me when Ilya Muromets lived :) --Ghirla ^-трёп- 14:49, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Contents 1 Old highlights 2 Chernihiv vs. Chernigov 3 Britannica's use in historical context 4 Treaty of 860 AD by Askold 5 Historic usage and desire of Chernihivans 6 Mezin?

[edit] Old highlights

I started rewriting the city history. The old highlights (modified) moved to this page for now. --Irpen 01:50, July 20, 2005 (UTC)

• Founded as early as 9th century
• One of major cities of Kievan Rus', an early East Slavic state
• The reign of knyaz Mstislav Mstislavich, The Bold started the golden age of Chernihiv
• Destroyed by Tartars in 1239 and later attacked until late 15th century
• In Lithuanian hands during the 14th century
• Part of Muscovy, 15th–16th centuries
• Ceded to the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth in 1618
• Ceded to Muscovy in 1648 following the Bohdan Khmelnytsky uprising
• Soviet rule established in 1919; Chernihiv part of the Ukrainian SSR
• During the Nazi occupation 1941–1943 the city was almost completely destroyed
• 1986 Chornobyl catastrophe
• In 1990 a "sausage revolution" breaks out in Chernihiv as people seize food from the car of a Communist Party official
• 1300th anniversary of the foundation of the city celebrated in 1992

[edit] Chernihiv vs. Chernigov

Dear Ghirlandajo, could you please provide any reference confirming that the town is "Russophone"? At least the 2001 census states the opposite for the Chernihiv region. (see All-Ukrainian population census 2001) Is there any evidence that the ethnic composition of Chernihiv is so much different from the rest of region. Could you confirm this by a reliable source?

Please note, I did not change the historic names "Czernihów Voivodship" and "Chernigovskaya guberniya". The rest of the text should conform to the title.--AndriyK 11:17, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

It is entirely irrelevant whether the city is Russophone now to resolve this issue. What is important is that currently the city is known in English by two names: Chernihiv and Chernigov. The Polish name is not used anywhere outside the Polish language. Hence, it is correct to use the Polish name in a history section (and I used it there) and not correct to introduce it in the first line since this is NOT how the city is called in English.

As for the rest, in its old history the city is known as Chernigov (it just happens to be called so in English L. history books) and I haven't seen the "Grand Principality of Chernihiv" ever written in English (of course it is written so in Ukrainian).

Andriy, I understand your desire to see more of CHernihiv. It is also my desire. If you want this to happen, write a section about more modern times of the city history and use Chernihiv as much as you want. Using Chernihiv for entire history is an anachronism. I suggest you follow Piotrus' example. A whole bunch of Polish editors were adding Kijow to the first line of Kiev article and were reverted. They didn't bother to help improve the article because all they cared was to see a Polish name there. It only took a dedicated and well-meaning Polish user (Piotrus) to do that. He wrote a couple of phrases for the History section and, you may see that Kijow Voivodship is still there. Nobody reverted him. This is the way to go. If all you care is not to see the alien name, you will fail. If you add info on the modern history, it will be with Chernihiv and no one will change that. --Irpen 00:17, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

Chernigov is the original Old East Slavic name of the city. The ending at "hiv" is a later vernacular development. Moving the articles on Mikhail of Chernigov and Oleg of Chernigov to Mikhail of Chernihiv and Oleg of Chernihiv is a blatant anachronism. It took time and pains for me to write these articles, and now you come to destroy them. Now I regret having written those articles, and will never mention this town in a new article again. I think that's what you are striving for. I also recommend you to turn your zeal to the Polish spelling of Ukrainian towns, such as Lwow and Czernichow which still prolifirate. But it seems that polonization of Ukrainian names doesn;t bother you at all. You come to this project as a russophobe, and spreading of russophobic hysteria has been your only contribution so far. --Ghirlandajo 08:38, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

You are not right. Chernigov cannot be Old East Slavic name. I've already explained this point.(see this Talk and the literature cited in the article Ukrainian language). So Chernihiv is not an anachronism.

Still, the point is English (not Old East Slavic, Russian and Ukrainian) spelling. The primyry English spelling is Chernihiv.--AndriyK 09:05, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

I would like to explaine once more to those who insert Russian names where they do not belong to. "Chernogov" is transliteration from Russian. It has nothing to do with the prononciation in Old Eas Slavic. The Easten Slaves (those who lived in Chernihiv) did not have the consonant "g" in their language. (See, for instance the book by Shevelov). One may doubt whether it was pronoced as "Chernihiv", "Chernihov", "Chernyhiv" or "Chernyhov", but it definitelly could not be "Chernigov". If you disagree, please start a normal discussion providing your arguments and referencies. Using "brutal force" of is conterproductive.--AndriyK 08:41, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

Andriy, the issue here is not how the native people of CH. pronounced or pronounce it. The issue is what name is used in modern English L history books that describe Ch. of that time. Wording "Grand Principality of Chernigov" are used by Britannica, Oxford and other reference books. And, yes, they use Chernihiv for the name of the city article as well as in the text about the modern city. --Irpen 15:51, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

Could you please tell the truth next time? It is silly to lie, if everyone can check.

Chernihiv

Encyclopædia Britannica Article

Russian Chernigov, or Cernigov, city and administrative centre of Chernihiv oblast (province), north-central Ukraine, on the Desna River, northeast of Kiev. Archaeology suggests a 7th-century origin, although Chernihiv was first mentioned in 907. It was one of the chief towns of Kievan Rus and the centre of a princedom. Its Spassky Cathedral dates from 1024. Chernihiv lost importance after the Tatar invasion…

As seen, Chernihiv is called Chernihiv not only "in the text about the modern city", but also in the text about its ancient times. And Chernigov is only mentioned as the Russian name.--AndriyK 19:02, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Britannica's use in historical context

Andriy, your demeanor is totally reprehencible but as to your point, let's look at EB's articles devoted to history. See for yourself:

• Vladimir II Monomakh: He became active in the politics of Kievan Rus, helping his father and uncle Izyaslav I (ruled at Kiev intermittently 1054–78) defeat his cousins Oleg Svyatoslavich and Boris Vyacheslavich at Chernigov (1078; modern Chernihiv, Ukraine) and succeeding his father as prince of Chernigov when Vsevolod became grand prince of Kiev. Vladimir ruled Chernigov from 1078 to 1094...
• John II Casimir Vasa: In January 1667 Poland signed the Truce of Andrusovo with Russia, whereby half of Belorussia (with Smolensk), Chernigov (modern Chernihiv, Ukraine), and all of Ukraine east of the Dnieper River, as well as Kiev, west of the river, were ceded to Russia.
• Sergey Ivanovich Muravyov-Apostol: "...after which he was transferred to the regiment at Chernigov (now Chernihiv, Ukraine)."
• Pavel Borisovich Akselrod: "born August 25, 1850?, Chernigov?, Ukraine, Russian Empire (now Chernihiv, Ukraine)"
• History of Russia: ...the basic territory of Rus (the principalities of Kiev, Chernigov, and Pereyaslavl).
• Igor Svyatoslavich: "prince of the Russian lands of Novgorod-Seversky (modern Novhorod-Siverskyy, Ukraine) after 1178 and of Chernigovsky (1198–1202; modern Chernihiv, Ukraine)..."

I am not suggesting anymore that you instead write something about the modern city to use Chernihiv, because mostly what you do is names Ukrainization. I will do that myself, when I find time for it. --Irpen 19:21, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

What I see, Britanica use either Chernihiv or both Chernigov and Chernihiv. There is no reason to consider Chernigov as a "common English name".--AndriyK 19:39, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

Nope, it sometimes just uses Chernigov, I just didn't cite several of those articles. So, would you please calm down and write something useful for this article, same as your expansion of Origin of UA L. Well, anyway, I have little hope. --Irpen 19:49, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

What you cited is sufficient to see that Chernigov is not a common English name of the city. Just convince your Russian friends to follow the WP guidelines about the city names, then I, you and your friends will have more time for productive work.--AndriyK 20:54, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

1. As far as I know, Wikipedia:Naming conventions only speak to article titles; usage within an article should keep the conventions in mind, but is not governed by them and is a matter of writing style.
2. Please don't start labelling people in the heat of the moment, especially by their race or nationality. This doesn't belong here. Just a friendly reminder; I'm sure you understand this already. —Michael Z. 2005-10-21 21:02 Z

I ment here that they vandalized also titles of Ukraine-related articles. For instance, Putyvl.--AndriyK 08:17, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

I would like once more bring your attension that Cherlihiv has been never renamed. (It's not like Tsaritsyn->Staligrad->Volgograd). Chernigov is neither the acient name of the city nor the traditional English spelling. What is the correct spelling of the name one can check here. Please compare to [Kiev]. The traditional English spelling is used in the title of the article. Well, the Russian spelling Chernigov is also in use. We can mention this in the article. But this is not the reason to translate the whole Wikipedia into "Russian Enlish". The same is true for all other articles were the name Cherlihiv is used.--AndriyK 08:27, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

AndriyK, as shown to you above, in all historic articles in Britannica Chernihiv of that time is either called Chernigov, or Chernigov (modern Chernihiv). The city was not renamed, it is just called that way in literature. Similarly, WW2 literature, even modern one, uses Battle of Kharkov, while modern usage is Kharkiv in the media. Once you understand this, you will save yourself much time. You already have received several suggestions on how you can imrpove Ukrainian coverage on WP which you all chose to ignore. Just another thought for you, we still have no article for Petro Doroshenko. I have little hope, you will take the advise. --Irpen 16:49, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

As I have shown here (at the start of this section), Chernigov is broadly used for all of the city history up to the 19th century. In fact, in every Britannica article of every historical person it uses Chernigov (sometimes adding Chernihiv in parentheses for the ref purpose). Chernihiv by itself is used only in three times in other articles, and all devoted to modern times, two describing the location of Nizhyn and Pryluky (being in Chernihiv Oblast) and one for Kuchma that mentions that he was born in the village in Ch. Obl. Even the article on Kotsyubybsky (clearly a Ukrainian person) uses Chernigov as his place of death in 1913 (Feel free to make this red link blue if you have no better usage of your time than deleting from the articles). As such, my usage of Chernigov when I was writing an article was entirely justfied and I am asking to treat my choise with respect. I repeat that everyone is welcome to write a section about the modern city where the usage of Chernihiv is more than appropriate. --Irpen 02:48, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

What spelling is used in the article called "Chernihiv" in Britannica, E. of Coulumbia, Encarta? Why Wikipedia should use different version of English than other English language encyclopadias?--AndriyK 16:58, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

We do not have to copy other encyclpopedia but we use them as an important factor (among the other ones) to make a choice. We have our own guidelines on Wikipedia in whose revision you even were trying to participate. All version of these guidelines incorporate the assumption that the title choice is based on the current usage only and the historical context choice (for this reason) may be different form the modern one.

As shown above, other encyclopedias use both versions and in the appropriate context they use Chernigov with substantial margin. And not only other encyclopedia. Look at this comparison in google (where "prince" is added to the city to restrict the usage to the Rus' time). The difference is 30000+ vs 1000-. As such, I have appropriately chosen the usage when I was writing an article and this conforms the style guidelines (any version of them). You, in turn, come to the article I wrote and keep introducing the anachronistic usage. I offered you repeatedly to write a chapter on the modern city instead but I guess you are not interested to actually do anything creative but impose your political views on my writing. If you want to check more ref books, let me know. I have full access to several online encyclopedias, atlases reference cites (not to encarta though). Let me know what test you would like to run and I will run it for you. Until then, I request that leave this alone. --Irpen 17:49, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Treaty of 860 AD by Askold

for instance, from here:

ASKOLD (Houml;skuld) (circa 800-882 AD), Old Varjager king or Scandinavian prince, another "founder" of Kiev. It was the Kyivan Prince Askold who, on 18 June 860 AD, arrived with his fleet of over 200 ships, into the Bay of the Golden Horn to threaten Constantinople. An honourable truce was soon concluded between Askold and the Emperor. Askold sent a delegation to Constantinople in October 860 AD to conclude further treaties, among which were articles about the Baptism of Kyivan Rus'. Cyril and Methodius, along with five disciples: Clement, Gorazd, Nahum, Angelar and Sava, were sent by Photios to Kyiv, as missionaries to the Slavs, where the two brothers met with Prince Askold in 861 AD. Askold was baptized, as were many of his subjects, and received the name "Nicholas." (Mykola Askold) Metropolitan Michael became the first Primate of Kyiv on the appointment of Patriarch Photios. Princes Askold and Dir (Dyre) were later hung as defenders of Orthodox Christianity, by Viking Rurik's son Oleg (Oleh) of Novgorod, at the capture of Kiev, in 882 AD. Kiev was then brought under the Holmgårds empire. Tomb of Askold, erected in 1810 at Askoldova Mohyls cemetery, Kiev Ukraine. Cemetery is now Ukrainian Civil War Student Memorial. Nestor the Chronicler also notes that it is from this time, 860 AD, that the name "Rus'" comes into vogue as the name for the Kyivan lands. (Nestor is mistaken ... the name is much, much older...) (Note similarity Houml to Humulus, from Latin meaning "hops.")

And what does it have to do to Chenigov? --Irpen 06:17, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

Furthermore, any note about "Houml;" being similar to "Humulus" is ludicrous; it's just a bad transcription of Höskuld, missing the & from the html code, an alternative spelling of Askold. Gene Nygaard 06:19, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Historic usage and desire of Chernihivans

Please do not mix different issues. The usage of Chernigov in historical context has nothing to do with the desire of today's Chernihivans to see one or the other version in modern English. Muscovites might want to see the Moskva used all over the city article.

This comparison is basically invalid. While Chernihiv or Chernigov is very rarely used in English, Moscow is used often.--Andrew Alexander 05:42, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

I don't care. What I do care, is that Chernigov is preferrable by a wide margin in all literature about the history of this ancient city as shown above.

Yet, only Russian literature is used in References. Is the article a simple translation from those books? Hope there is no copyright violation involved here. And, there is plenty of modern literature using Chernihiv, e.g. Encyclopedia Britannica. So, all in all, using the modern city name seems reasonable and well within acceptable encyclopedia usage.

Examples from Britannica and several others are given too. So, unless anti-Russian name crusaders have anything new to say,

This is a direct personal attack against other editors working on this page. Please apologize.--Andrew Alexander 05:42, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

the correct historical usage needs to be left alone. OTOH, there is no need to discuss what Chernihivans would like to see in English. We just don't know since there were no surveys and Andrew Alexander's attempt to derive it from how they voted on unrelated issues is laughable. In any case their preference matters less than what the accepted historic usage is.

Why, but the vote for Ukrainian independence isn't "laughable", is it?--Andrew Alexander 05:42, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

On the side note, just out of curiousity, I would like to know how Andrew Alexander came up with the mention of the city in Askold's treaty. There is no mention in the link he provided. Are there any off-line sources about that? I hope he didn't just invent this himself. --Irpen 05:46, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

Of course there was a mention, only not in that link. Please read the links on the article main page.--Andrew Alexander 05:42, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Mezin?

Is Mezin/Mezyn located near here? It's a small village on the Desna River where extensive human settlements and mammoth bones dating about 20,000 years have been found. Badagnani 07:00, 11 February 2007 (UTC)