Talk:Che Guevara
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[edit] Introduction
[edit] Evaluations, etc.:
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 List of "Che Guevara" articles in other languages known to have achieved "Featured Article" status.
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[edit] Please read before you write:
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This is a controversial topic, which may be disputed. Please read this talk page and discuss substantial changes here before making them. Unsigned comments may be removed. |
[edit] Fake?
The current article says:
| “ | In 1997, the skeletal remains of Guevara's handless body were exhumed from beneath an air strip near Vallegrande, positively identified by DNA matching […] | ” |
Hi Zleitzen:
An article by Maite Rico and Bertrand de la Grande has been published this month in Letras Libres (the magazine of Enrique Krauze) claiming that the discovery of the Che remains was a fake.
If I remember correctly you know Spanish. I will quote from today’s article by Mario Vargas Llosa in Reforma: “De todo ello concluyen que los restos del Che no son los que reposan en el museo de Santa Clara […] y que el supuesto descubrimiento fue una pura representación teatral rigurosamente fraguada para complacer a Fidel Castro”.
—Cesar Tort 00:37, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
- Hello Cesar Tort. Indeed, I saw that the other day. Certainly worthy of a mention here - I was hoping someone else would do the honours ;) Here is a good source for the story in English : Bones in Cuban mausoleum are not Guevara's, claims magazine.-- Zleitzen(talk) 00:52, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Guidelines for External Links
The External Links section is becoming very large. A number of the links clearly do not meet Wikipedia's guidelines, which I am including below for reference. Perhaps upon reading these guidelines, users who have added links that do not meet these criteria will kindly remove them; or, if not, perhaps other editors will take the necessary action ... -- Polaris999 23:03, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
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Links normally to be avoided
Source: WP:MOS page entitled Links normally to be avoided |
[edit] Comment re La Coubre Explosion (copied from CG article page) : opinions requested
The following comment was posted a few minutes ago by User:Bogden400 and I am copying it here so that it will receive wider readership among editors.
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Sentence is not clear. Mainly because the explosion is not explained it detail, so people who are reading this will be confused by the phrase "when a second explosion occured", as I was. Mainly because a first explosion is not mentioned. Will somebody with more knowledge about this explosion please edit this sentence to include some background information first. |
While I do agree with User:Bogden400 that the explosion of La Coubre is not explained in the paragraph in question in the Che Guevara article, since La Coubre is wikified and the incident is fully discussed in the linked-to WP article, I have hesitated to add text to the CG article to describe the event. However, perhaps a sentence or two should be added to clarify the context? I would like to hear how other editors feel about this, and also see any suggestions as to the text that might be added. Thank you -- Polaris999 04:25, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
- Agree that a sentence or two would be good, Polaris. But I took a look at the paragraph - realised that I hadn't noticed it before - and nearly choked on my cornflakes. Whilst the explanation that the CIA deliberately bombed the boat has always seemed dubious Fidel rhetoric - the most likely explanation being that it was a terrible workplace accident perhaps due to procedural negligence, which happened to coincide with actual attacks on Cuba - the convoluted belief that "Guevara's soviet rivals" were somehow responsible for the explosions is well... a wild conspiracy theory - based on no evidence at all - from an unreliable source here.-- Zleitzen(talk) 03:11, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
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- Hello Zleitzen -- Thank you for your comments. That remark re "Guevara's soviet rivals" was a contribution by EJ. It confused me when I first read it, then I came to interpret it to mean that Roca, Grobart, and their associates might have sabotaged the ship, presumably with the intention of fomenting further discord between Cuba and the USA. In any case, even if they did so, they certainly did not do it because they were "rivals" of Guevara's since at that point in time he and they were actually collaborators, working hand in hand to lead Cuba along a socialist/communist path. Howver, since no one ever raised questions about this paragraph until now, I had concluded that I must be the only one who had problems with it, and therefore kept silent. Any chance you could apply a touch of the Zleitzen magic to it and bring form out of chaos? -- Polaris999 04:46, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
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- Many thanks, Zleitzen, for your redact of the paragraph re La Coubre. What a welcome improvement! -- Polaris999 08:56, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
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[edit] Redundancy of banners
Some weeks ago, one editor gathered all of the "project banners" that had been placed on this Talk page into a single banner with the text "This article is within the scope of multiple WikiProjects. Click on [show] for further details"; clicking then caused the individual banners to be shown. This method seemed like a good one to me. However, several days ago, another editor re-inserted all of the banners so that they again display individually at the top of the Talk page -- without, however, removing the banner created by the former editor that consolidates all of them as described above.
Obviously, we should not have both methods present on this Talk page simultaneously as is now the case, so I suppose we will have to find out which of the two methods of displaying the banners is preferred. Perhaps we could do an informal poll within this topic where people can express their opinions as to which should be used. -- Polaris999 04:46, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
In favor of consolidated banner:
In favor of individually-displayed banners:
- Support. Editors have argued about the consolidated banner on other pages, the main argument being that users have to wade through a page of these things before getting to the talk section. However, the consolidated banner hides the important details about the project, and also obscures the relevant WP:Portal link. Increasing access to these elements of wikipedia is essential to make other users aware of the many different pages surrounding the topic and encourage much needed participation. As this article is a prominent page for WP:Cuba, and the Cuba:Portal (for example), it would be a wasted opportunity not to advertise these features. The best option would be keep the banners but just add this template, which still allows our tortured editors to be rid of those meddlesome banners with one click, but keeps them visible for others. -- Zleitzen(talk) 07:37, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
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- Thank you for your comments, Zleitzen. I have inserted Template:skiptotoctalk as you suggested, and remmed out the consolidated banner. -- Polaris999 19:53, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
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- I imagine someone will come along any time now and consolidate the banners anyway. By the way, Polaris, what do you make of the new map? I was browsing the sprawling, Joycean Spanish version of the CG article the other day and spotted that an editor had been creating maps like their life depended on it. Eclipsing our timid efforts of cartography on the Cuban Revolution articles. I sneaked out with one and it added to our page. I think another of our pics was deleted without reason - so the Guatemala section needed some complimentary visuals.-- Zleitzen(talk) 06:05, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
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[edit] Spanish wikipedia entry on Che Guevara critically different
Simply put, the spanish entry clashes with key information presented in the english entry. If anyone likes, I can point to and translate excerpts of the spanish entry, which cites sources just as the english version. In a nutshell, the spanish version portrays Che Guevara as characterised by the following: - Tolerance of errors commited by people under his command - Integration, recognition, and treatment as equals of guajiros and ethnic minorites under his command - Solidarity and general incarnation of his "New Socialist Man" (Hombre Nuevo Socialista) philosophy, in which voluntary work is cornerstone - He performed voluntary work every week, working in metalurgies as well as crop fields - He refused any other payments or luxuries when in key gorvernmental positions, conserving only his original meager salary in order to set a "revolutionary example"
And there are many more. Again, you can see where these things come into conflict with the information present in the english entry. Again, I can provide transcriptions of the spanish entry if needed, and cite sources. Wryn 10:09, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
- Well I don't think the Spanish article is as good as this one, it is way to long and wouldn't pass the requirements for a featured article on this wikipedia. Regarding the points, refusing payments is in this article, as is Hombre Nuevo, other points relating to Cuba such as the voluntary work are in the daughter article Che Guevara's involvement in the Cuban Revolution which covers the philosophy in greater detail.
- However "tolerance of errors commited by people under his command" and "treatment as equals of guajiros and ethnic minorites" is not the case in my view. There are several instances of Guevara's cruel mistreatment of young fighters under his command who had made errors, as well as his at times offensive attitude to uneducated workers. Also, post-revolution, when young black revolutionaries took over a club in Havana after having been refused entry by a racist door policy, Guevara - their commander - scolded them with some liberal blurb that "the revolution had not progressed far enough" for such reckless activity. Marcus Garvey he was not.-- Zleitzen(talk) 10:35, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
Points noted regarding Che Guevara's involvement in the Cuban Revolution. I still think there should be some mention about Hombre Nuevo and the importance given to voluntary work beyond this paragraph:
"His essay El socialismo y el hombre en Cuba (1965) (Man and Socialism in Cuba) advocates the need to shape a "new man" (hombre nuevo) in conjunction with a socialist state. Some saw Guevara as the simultaneously glamorous and austere model of that "new man."
Particularly because acting on such ideas through voluntary work was arguably an important moment and aspect of his life.
Regarding black discrimination, that is another point of clashing information with the different entries. In the spanish version Guevara's groups had an integration of blacks and guajiros and important ranks where given to its members, not a common practice at that time. Self-edit: Here is more on the matter, a translated fragment from his speech to the United Nations in 1964 http://es.wikisource.org/wiki/Discurso_en_la_ONU%2C_11_de_diciembre_de_1964
Llegará el día en que esta Asamblea adquiera aún más madurez y le demande al gobierno norteamericano garantías para la vida de la población negra y latinoamericana que vive en este país, norteamericanos de origen o adopción, la mayoría de ellos. ¿Cómo puede constituirse en gendarme de la libertad quien asesina a sus propios hijos y los discrimina diariamente por el color de la piel, quien deja en libertad a los asesinos de los negros, los protege además, y castiga a la población negra por exigir el respeto a sus legítimos derechos de hombres libres?
The translation:
There will come a day in which this Asembly will adquire more maturity and make a demand towards the government of the United States of garanties for the life of the black and latin american populations living in that country, the majority of them north americans of origin or adoption. How can one constitute onself as protector of liberty, he who murders their own children and discriminates them on a daily basis by the colour of their skin, who lets the murderers of blacks roam free, who it even protects, and punishes the black population for demanding the respect towards their legitimate rights as free men?
He differentiated between errors and treason, two matters he handled distinctively different, tolerance towards errors but intolerance towards treason. On the offensive attitudes towards workers, there is a single notable example to the contrary, the case being his romance with Zoila Rodríguez García, a guajira. There is a testimony by García in which Guevara shows her a book with yellow letters on the cover. Garcia asks if they are gold, to which Guevara chuckles, and answeres "No, this is a book about communism". She was a bit embarrassed to ask what communism was, since she didn't know. It didn't seemt to affect his opinion of her, his treatment towards her or their relationship.
One final point I forgot to mention during the Cuban Revolution, during a succesful siege by Guevara's group, he stayed afterwards to tend the injuries of both his group and the rival combatant's. He reached a truce with the other groups medic to leave the most severly injured under his watch, so long as repercusive action was not taken against them after he left, a truce which was latter proven to be upheld. Wryn 11:12, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Legacy & Criticisms
It's equally interesting and laughable to note a criticism section here, whereas articles such as those of Castro, Stalin and Hitler don't have one (this is not to say there’s no criticism there at all). Moreover, too many sources are of American origin (or rather, Cuban-American) and of dubious background (such as Felix Rodriguez, the “heroic” killing machine). Ok, there’s Jean Paul Sartre and few others… shall I understand that established scholars from other parts of the world systematically and unanimously overlooked Guevara or their views are not in line with the article’s general tone?!
At last but not least, there’s a general feeling that “this guy had to be stupid and tyrannical because he was a commie… oooh, and because CIA took him out!”. Usually when reconstructing somebody’s image positive and negative views are weighted with equal scrutiny… in Guevara’s case negative testimonies must have been true while positive reviews must have been either propaganda or exaggerations… so much with NPOV! 81.96.126.218 21:46, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
- It wasn't Cuban American Felix Rodriguez who wrote the “heroic” killing machine it was Peruvian Alvaro Vargas Llosa. I'm not sure which Cuban-Americans you are referring to? You are right to pick up on Vargas though because he is a complete idiot. The point referenced to him is this;
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in much of Latin America, Che-inspired revolutions had the practical result of reinforcing brutal militarism for many years.
- Which to me sounds rather like blaming Geronimo for the subsequent brutality of the white settlers. But if you are the same editor that wrote the above section, you have yet to convince me that there are any glaring omissions, or that there is much to be removed. -- Zleitzen(talk) 23:36, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
- No Zleitzen, the coment in this section was not written by me. (Nevertheless, I do agree with the point being made, but that's a side issue). Seeing as how you answered this comment and not the one I made above, I will have to ask just why exactly you need to be convinced of any glaring omissions. Do you have some sort of administrator status over this page? (no sarcasm intended, only a legitimate question). For glaring omissions, my points are already stated. Wether you agree to them or not is subject to debate for which you haven't presented credible sources or substantial evidence on your behalf (the incident with the racist club for example). I, on the other half, have present substantial evidence and credible sources to the contrary (his speach towards the United Nations in 1964). I was trying to have a reasonable debate with you, but since I'm not noting any disposition from you, I will then have to Wikipedia:Be_bold_in_updating_pages and cite my sources, regardless of your degree of personal convicement or foundness. You are of course, entitled to debate, just as I, or anyone else here is for that matter. Wryn 08:28, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
Hello Wryn. I can site my sources -
- racist club incident : Richard Gott. Cuba a new history p.172-174 based on the testimonies of Pombo Villegas.
- Or this: Anderson, Jon Lee. Che Guevara: A Revolutionary Life, New York: 1997, Grove Press, p. 567. "Once, when he took economist Regino Boti with him to the farm and tested some of the men on their reading comprehension. One man did so badly that Che insulted him, saying: "Well, if you keep studying maybe you'll get to be as smart as an ox in twenty years" and turning on his heel. The poor guajiro was so humiliated he began crying. Boti went back to talk to Che, telling him that he had been wrong to be so harsh, to go back and talk like a man, to lift his spirits again. Such episodes were commonplace"
- Or this Anderson, Jon Lee. Che Guevara: A Revolutionary Life, New York: 1997, Grove Press, p. 340. "When Pombo Villegas and others went on a hunger strike to complain about the food, Che had at first threatened to shoot them. In the end, after conferring with Fidel, he had softened the sanction, making them go without food for five days."
etc. etc. The rest of my points are already on the page. We can await your edits to see if they are an improvement, but I was still unconvinced by what you thought was missing from this article.-- Zleitzen(talk) 09:03, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
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- Done. I've added a bit of info regarding his romance with Zoila Rodríguez García and the Minas del Frío Cadet School, its a start for now. Hopefully the very POV tone of this article will begin to balance towards a more NOPV tone, backed up by solid facts that are conveniently not present at the moment, cited from reliable sources. Wryn 11:36, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
- I'm looking at this page in which that paragraph matches the same paragrapth on this entry exacty. In fact, there are several paragraphs which match each other, so I have to turn the tables and question if you have read Anderson's book in return. If you happen to be the editor of the article on the mentioned page, given Wikipedia´s stance on self-citing, the page in question would seem an unpublished synthesis of published material. Remeber to avoid Conflict of Interest and No Original Reseach. Wryn 18:29, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
- Zleitzen, my apologies, I thought you were referring to something else. Add the part about the watch again if you want, cited. My previous points on Conflict of Interest still stands though.Wryn 18:43, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
Z: three points
(1) Your analogy to Geronimo may be far more apt than intended. Since Gernomimo was a leader of the Apaches, whose reputation and apparently real record of rape, torture and murder exceeded even the loose mores of the times. BTW there is a link to Cuba since Leonard Wood got his medal of honor for the capture of Geronimo (it is said he was only marginally linked to it)
(2) The said romance with Zoila must have occurred in the quite luxurious headquarters the Che had ordered constructed for himself at that dreadful cold place called Las Minas del Frio
(3) There is now even more question about the location of Guevara's remains [2]. El Jigue 208.65.188.149 16:53, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
- I didn't know that Leonard Wood captured Geronimo, EJ. Thank you for that tidbit.-- Zleitzen(talk) 17:04, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Change the introduction?
The intro portrays Guevara as a socialist, but it mentions nothing of his methods which have been highly criticized. Could we please put this in? It is very important and cannot be ignored (it only receives light mention in the article).
[edit] Removed Section
I've removed the following section recently added, simply because I think there are too many problems with it to clean up in one or two edits. One of the problems is that it seems to be directly translated from another article - without any effort to fix grammar issues, and actually links to the Spanish wikipedia - which is neither policy or practice. As this is a featured article, I would ask editors not to text dump poorly worded material to a page. The below addition will need to be discussed and sorted out before being readded to the page.
In 1958, Che Guevara installed Cadet School in Minas del Frío, moments during which the Movimiento 26 de Julio had installed themselves in Sierra Maestra with the objective of overthrowing the dictatorship of Fugliencio Batista. During this time in Minas del Frío he started a relationship with Zoila Rodríguez García, a guajira who lived in Sierra Maestra and, like the rest of her family, colaborated with the guerrilla.[1]
Other editors comments are welcome.-- Zleitzen(talk) 08:26, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
- Nice move, though a rather ridiculous argumentation. If grammar is such a problem in such a small paragraph, isn't it a bit ridiculous to say it's too much of a hassle to fix it in one edit? Likewise, the link can be easily removed in no time. But of course, you would rather leave out a text that mentions his relationship with García, a guajira, which contradicts the general tone of this article that Che was racist. Nice move. Conveniently, the part about him being a poetry and literary enthusiast has been removed from the introductory paragraph. Folks, lets cut the crap. Why don't you just say he was a racist, gun-totting unthinking godless commie? No, of course you can't say that, it wouldn't be serious enough or encyclopedic. Ironic though how thats what the article exactly implies. Despite the verbosity, your machinations are completly evident to those of us who can see the reeking anti-Che, anticommunist, POV of this article. (For example, the paragraph phrasing "Che became known as a 'comandante'". Newsflash, Commander is a typical designation of any communist group leader, in contrast to "officer". No need to give it such an aura of esoterism.).
- In any case, I've given up on this and other wikipedia articles relating to similar matters (if you think the english and spanish entries on Che are clashing, just look at the entry on Hugo Chavez. The clashing is 100 times worse if not more... Dear God...).
- I can understand differing interpretations of data, but the extent of manipulation on information on this and other entries sets a downright slandering POV tone, if not being a complete slander falling short of propaganda, no matter how formalistic and archival the redaction is.
- In a place where neutrality is the desired goal, it makes me sick to see how information is manipulated and presented in such a guiltless way.
- Oh well. Live and learn. Wryn 16:16, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
- You are welcome to start a request for comment on my anti-Che, anticommunist, POV machinations here: Wikipedia:Requests for comment/User conduct.-- Zleitzen(talk) 16:56, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
- You mention grammar issues with the paragraph, yet I've just run a spell check and the only grammatical error it has is with the word "colaborated" instead of "collaborated". Are you seriously telling me, with a straight face, that a -single- grammar error was meritory of the deletion of an entire paragraph? Oh right, it also has a link. Removing the entire paragraph would be more suitable than removing a single link? Maybe its the word "installed" which is causing trouble. The use is legitimate though. From dictionary.com:
- installed: To settle in an indicated place or condition; establish: installed myself in the spare room.Wryn 20:41, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
- Silence implies consent, eh?Wryn 16:56, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Marxist or Marxist-Leninist?
This matter has been previously discussed ( In Talk Archive #2 and In Talk Archive #6) and a consensus reached that the adjective "Marxist" was the best choice for the lead paragraph.
It should be borne in mind that, in the last years of his life, Guevara had become quite critical of Lenin who, he had concluded, was "the culprit" responsible for the series of errors that had ultimately resulted in the Soviet Union taking the "capitalist path". He develops this line of thought in Apuntes críticos a la economía (published by Ocean Press, 1 August 2006), a fact that is recorded by Anderson on page 697 of the edition ISBN 0-8021-3558-7(pbk.). In view of his position in this regard, I do not see how it can be considered appropriate to label him a "Leninist", but I would welcome the opportunity to read other editors' opinions on the subject. -- Polaris999 03:17, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
- Imperialism is a leninist concept. "Marxism" by itself denotes something more akin to left communism, council communism, luxemburgism, or simply reformist. But hey, feel free to leave simply "Marxism", its less explanatory and sounds more pejorative, goes well with the tone of the article. Wryn 21:52, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Paragraph in urgent need of a re-write
Reference is made here to the "Cuba" section of the main Che Guevara article, i.e. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Che_Guevara#Cuba , specifically to the first two sentences of its 3rd paragraph, which read as follows:
Guevara became a leader among the rebels, a Comandante (English translation: Major), respected by his comrades in arms for his courage and military prowess,[2] During the guerrilla campaign Guevara was feared for his ruthlessness, which Fidel Castro described as an "excessively aggressive quality", being personally responsible for the execution and torture of a number of men accused of being informers, deserters or spies.[3]
1. Re Sentence #1: This is actually a text string rather than a sentence, having been truncated to the point that it now ends with a comma. Either its original text should be restored or it should be entirely re-written.
2. Re Sentence #2: This sentence is quite a piece of work, having been written in such a way that it seems to quote Fidel Castro describing Guevara's "ruthlessness". However, this representation is either a serious misunderstanding or a deliberate deception since Castro's words are taken completely out of context and their meaning grossly distorted. In order to let editors easily view the actual words spoken by Castro in their original context, I have extracted the relevant paragraphs from the speech in question in both the original Spanish [5] and an English translation (by Ocean Books [6]) and pasted them side by side in the table below. As is apparent, the "aggressiveness" that Castro attributes to Guevara is not "ruthlessness" but rather audacity and his constant willingness to sacrifice his life for others. Not surprisingly, the pages cited in the "source note" attached to this strange sentence, i.e., "Anderson pp. 269-270, 277-278", make no reference whatsoever to this or any other speech by Fidel Castro about Guevara or any other topic.
It is beyond obvious that Sentence #2 does not meet Wikipedia's standards of reliability and needs to be replaced. While I could have done this myself, I thought it was more in keeping with the Wikipedia community spirit to present the problem here on the Talk page so that all editors who wish to participate in crafting the replacement text will have the opportunity to do so. (Please post your suggestions, comments, etc. below the table.) Thank you -- Polaris999 02:02, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
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Excerpts from the speech delivered by Fidel Castro Ruz on October 18, 1967 "And so it was in combat — in one of the many battles he fought — that he lost his life. We do not have sufficient evidence to enable us to deduce what circumstances preceded that combat, or how far he may have acted in an excessively aggressive way. But, we repeat, if as a guerrilla he had an Achilles’ heel, it was his excessive aggressiveness, his absolute contempt for danger." |
Fragmentos del discurso pronunciado por Fidel Castro Ruz el 18 de octubre de 1967 "Y así, en un combate, ¡en uno de los tantos combates que libró!, perdió la vida. No poseemos suficientes elementos de juicio para poder hacer alguna deducción acerca de todas las circunstancias que precedieron ese combate, acerca de hasta qué grado pudo haber actuado de una manera excesivamente agresiva, pero —repetimos— si como guerrillero tenia un talón de Aquiles, ese talón de Aquiles era su excesiva agresividad, su absoluto desprecio por el peligro." |
Please post your suggestions re how to improve these sentences here:
Hello Polaris. That was added a few days ago by an anonymous editor, I tried to clean it up and at least give it a source but it appears to have got mixed up in another sentence and become even more garbled. Presumably the "aggressive quality" was taken by the editor from the legacy section, whilst I added the Anderson pp. 269-270, 277-278 to source the "execution and torture of a number of men accused of being informers, deserters or spies". Those pages actually do refer to the execution of such. Any efforts to improve this addition are welcome.-- Zleitzen(talk) 02:24, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] POV dispute
This article presents Guevara from the viewpoint that he was a self-sacrificial, heroic man. He was "murdered" - not "a murderer".
I asked for a POV check, but none occured. The tag was simply removed.
- Floyd Brown wrote:
- Che was a mass executioner who conducted many of his executions without a jury. Che said, “To send men to the firing squad, judicial proof is unnecessary.” Such a judicial procedure in his mind was “just an archaic bourgeoisie detail.” He reminded those who listened that “this is a revolution! And a revolutionary must be a cold killing machine motivated by pure hate.” [7]
- Now this is the best I could do in a few minutes of googling, but better sources are no doubt available.
- Humborto's book about Fidel Castro says:
- Fidel’s firing squads killed thousands of Cubans
- Che himself said:
- "Executions? ... Certainly we execute! ... And we will continue executing as long as it is necessary! This is a war to the DEATH against the revolution's enemies!" [8]
- According to the Black Book of Communism, those firing-squad executions had reached around 10,000 by that time.
I ask you to consider that there is a legitimate POV dispute here, and to postpone removal of the NPOV-dispute tag until the matter has actually been resolved. Please read the following excerpt from Wikipedia:POV check:
- For situations where you or other editors disagree on NPOV status, or need to reach consensus on neutrality, instead use the neutrality dispute template, {{POV}}, and explain the reasons on the talk page.
- In order to ensure the POV check template cannot be used to brand articles as non-neutral without a justification, it may be removed by anyone if they feel that the issue has been resolved. Please do not edit war over the use of this template. Instead, if you disagree with its removal, place the full neutrality dispute template on the page, explain your reasons on the talk page, and follow the regular NPOV dispute resolution process.
Let's discuss this dispute. --Uncle Ed 16:29, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
- (1) I think on the basis that you are on probation for POV and tendentious editing - Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Ed Poor 2 – for what I imagine will be an eternity - then the addition of the tag without any accompanying talk page conversation (of which there will need to be a lot) was illegitimate and extremely unhelpful to this article and wikipedia. This is a featured article and has been much scrutinized by people who know about the subject matter before you showed up. Your linking to the POV guideline "...In order to ensure the POV check template cannot be used to brand articles as non-neutral without a justification it may be removed by anyone if they feel that the issue has been resolved." was not wise. These issues have been resolved time and again via the use of reliable sources. Its removal was justified.
- (2) There is no legitimate dispute, Ed Poor. And no one is "edit-warring" over the use of the template. Read the article - which is sourced to numerous major scholars of Cuban history before you start sourcing material to blogs like babalublog and someone called Floyd Brown (?)
- (3) Again. Read the article. What is missing that your sources provide? Given that we actually have a list of the names of the 170 or so executions Che Guevara is said to have been responsible for in La Cabana, then you can be sure that editors have poured over this in far more detail than yourself and FloydBrown. Your "10,000" figure from the Black Book of Communism, though obviously in dispute, is unrelated to Guevara anyway and the figures come largely from the wars against the bandits.
- My view is this: Above I can be found disputing this article with an editor who believes the article is a disgraceful anti-Che Guevara tract - and I was accused of having an "anti-Che, anticommunist, POV". So the article is either too anti-Guevara or too pro-Guevara to various editors who haven’t really backed up what they claim beyond basic hyperbole and useless sources. Now I know that you Ed, actually do have an “anti-Che, anticommunist, POV”. Perhaps you can argue with the other editor on a blog somewhere and let us get on with working on the article. But do not add a POV tag to a featured article without reading it first and without some serious sources. Guevara has been the subject of numerous major biographies, and the Cuban revolution is well covered by scholars. What do historians such as Anderson, Thomas, Castañeda, Dorschner etc say on the subject Ed? -- Zleitzen(talk) 17:07, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
- Additional comments to Ed. You write "this article presents Guevara from the viewpoint that he was a self-sacrificial, heroic man". This is a sample of sentences from the article for you to read. Please reconsider whether these statements present a pro-Guevara POV problem in this article that requires your tag...-- Zleitzen(talk) 18:18, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
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- If by editors not backing up claims beyond basic hyperbole and useless sources you were refering to me, then you're setting up a straw man. I did give you valid sources, I cited his speach to the United Nations in 1964, along with the romance with García from "Che Entre Nosotros". Yet that comment was completely ignored. When you removed the section I contributed, you claimed it was due to grammar errors. Yet I responded noting there was a single error, and that comment was also ignored. So really, what am I supposed to think?
- I would rather have an article without featured status that is informatively accurate, rather than a featured article which is informatively inaccurate. And I thought that this was the goal of Wikipedia -to provide as accurate information as possible. I was discussing/editing basing myself on that principle, yet you question my motives. So now I question yours, unless I'm wrong, and it's in Wikipedia's best interest to sacrife information as long as featured article can be achived/maintained. Which would be a real shame if it was.
- As for the use of hyperbole, another straw man. Exactly where did I use hyperbole? The only hyperbole I see is within the article. Comparing Che Guevara to Bin Laden and Hitler? Give me a break.Wryn 02:20, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
- The hyperbole and strawman arguments are as follows, from you who has arrived to claim the article is anti-Guevara: "[this article]...sets a downright slandering POV tone, if not being a complete slander falling short of propaganda, no matter how formalistic and archival the redaction is. In a place where neutrality is the desired goal, it makes me sick to see how information is manipulated and presented in such a guiltless way." and from Ed who has arrived to claim that "this article presents Guevara from the viewpoint that he was a self-sacrificial, heroic man" and that it "hides the fact that Guevara is a murderer". If you prefer, myself and the more neutral editors who are well schooled in the subject matter - and who worked hard on this article with wording issues and detailed sourcing - can retire and let you fight it out amongst yourselves. Of course the article will lose its featured status, and much of this hard work will be diminished to the detriment of the article and wikipedia. By the way, please re-read your earlier paragraph, if you believe that this ; "Che Guevara installed Cadet School in Minas del Frío, moments during which the Movimiento 26 de Julio had installed themselves in Sierra Maestra" is grammatically correct, then you obviously had a different schooling in English than myself. It also repeated some points mentioned earlier. I have cleaned up your paragraphs and restored them to the article.-- Zleitzen(talk) 09:29, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
I hope you won't retire from the discussion. I have no desire to make the article lose its feature status.
I'm still studying the placement of statements like, "It is estimated that approximately 179 to 500 people were executed on Guevara's extra-judicial orders during this time."
And I appreciate your willingness to take up this matter. --Uncle Ed 15:46, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
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- (to Zleitzen) Ok, the paragraph was missing an "a" after installed. The comment I made that is being refered to as hyperbole, was part of a latter response, my earlier responses were based on sources and and did not resort to hyperbole, those are the ones I was refering to originally. When I said Guevara was not racist, I provided documented examples to support that claim. I was not basing myself on a purely ideological position to do so. And yes, right now, I do feel as if the article is saying "Che is racist". But I'm not saying the article should say "Che was not racist", I'm saying the article should say:
- "Arguments in favor of attributing racism to Guevara include..."
- "Counter-arguments against the attribution of racism to Guevara include..."
- Can you see that I'm only trying to add balance to parts I feel are unbalanced?Wryn 16:04, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
- To Wryn. At what point in the article do you believe that it says or even implies "Che Guevara is racist"? Che Guevara wasn't racist, but he failed to understand many of the issues of Afro-Cubans in Cuba, and Africans themselves on his adventure in the Congo. As did Castro whose views on race at that time were akin to middle America of the early 60s rather than Angela Davis. All this is well documented in academic texts and admitted to by those involved much later. But this isn't on the page anyway so I you've lost me. To Ed, take up what matter? There is no matter that I can see other than you placing a POV tag on a much scrutinised article - that has passed a rigorous screening process and has even been on the main page - and presenting Floyd Brown (?) and a blog in your defence. Now you are pondering the placement of something on a page, how long do we have to wait for this?-- Zleitzen(talk) 16:31, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
- (to Zleitzen) Ok, the paragraph was missing an "a" after installed. The comment I made that is being refered to as hyperbole, was part of a latter response, my earlier responses were based on sources and and did not resort to hyperbole, those are the ones I was refering to originally. When I said Guevara was not racist, I provided documented examples to support that claim. I was not basing myself on a purely ideological position to do so. And yes, right now, I do feel as if the article is saying "Che is racist". But I'm not saying the article should say "Che was not racist", I'm saying the article should say:
Further reply to Ed: The era we are referring to is the immediate-post revolutionary period and (as usual) I am re-hashing the details same 500-550 people executed in the first 6-12 months or so. Of which all mainstream sources refer to in detail as the "to-the-wall" judicial executions of Batista secret police figures and other collaborators. The larger figures span a decade that includes several wars (War of the Bandits/Bay of Pigs) and campaigns against continued armed "counter revolutionary" resistance groups. Incidentally, Guevara's spell as prosecutor in La Cabaña lasted only 6 months in early 1959.
Remember that this was after a long brutal war against Batista's military regime that perpetrated countless civilian atrocities. It should be noted that the climate of "drive through justice" was severely influenced by the memory of the violent chaos of the post-Machado period in the 1930s, where lawless retributions were rife. It was considered that the speedy trials and executions in 1959, including the stadium trials, were methods to prevent greater lawlessness and deter citizens from seeking their own retributions against Batista informants and other individuals. This all took place amidst a backdrop of hundreds of thousands of people taking to the streets and demanding justice.
An interesting story that might illuminate the issue is that of the trial of 44 Batista airmen in 1959, accused of war-crimes in Santiago. When these men were found innocent, rioting and deep unrest in Santiago against the decision forced a retrial and the judgement was overturned by Castro claiming "revolutionary justice is based not on legal precepts but moral conviction". The men were therefore sentenced to 20-30 years imprisonment. That provides a picture not only of the legal chaos of the era, but of the typical accusations, charges and punishments that were being banded about at the time. The heated atmosphere was compared to France in 1945 by various international observers, where there were also tragic cases of gross miscarriages of justice.-- Zleitzen(talk) 16:42, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
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- to Zleitzen: My apologies, I mixed up the information from the article itself with the information from talk page discussions above. As a side note, I find it ironic that at first you supported views that regarded Guevara as racist (the racist club incident) and in your latest response you claim that Guevara was not racist, only that he failed to understand certain issues of Afro-Cubans and Africans in his Congo expedition. As another side note, this is a view I don't share (from a documented basis), but this is another matter.
- The Legacy and Cult of Che parts of the article contains these phrases: "his principal role in setting up Cuba's first post-revolutionary labor camps, his unsympathetic treatment of captured fighters during various guerrilla campaigns, and his frequent humiliations of those deemed his intellectual inferiors.", this "some of whom consider Guevara an authoritarian, anti-working-class Stalinist, whose legacy was the creation of a more bureaucratic, authoritarian regime. Detractors have also theorized that in much of Latin America, Che-inspired revolutions had the practical result of reinforcing brutal militarism for many years." and this "public opposition which compared Guevara to Osama bin Laden and Adolf Hitler", etc.
- I can see that there are phrases which support different viewpoints, such as Guevara becoming the figure of inspiration for guerrillas / socialist leaders in idealistic terms, and his image/persona becoming an icon of consumerism. However, the very important viewpoint that I feel is missing is that Guevara's life and essays serve as the basis for a social critique from a materialist view, not a solely ideal or romantic one as is portrayed by the article right now. I would go as far as to claim, at least in latin america, that the support for Che comes from a materialist agreement to his writtings/life, not from a romanticized or idealistic depiction of Che. Such a latter consideration is more typical of "First World" countries, and is in fact, completely contrary to Marxist thought, which is strictly materialistic/scientific.
- I believe that the solution would be to include this fourth viewpoint, Che's support from a materialist viewpoint advocated by different authors and groups, which I feel is a key element missing right now. Of course this would be included from relevant sources. What do you think?Wryn 18:16, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
I'm not going to plunge deeply into this, except to remark that we are dealing with an article that is very difficult to get right. There is no general scholarly consensus on Che Guevara. There are serious, well-intentioned people who consider him a monster and there are serious, well-intentioned people who consider him a hero and role model. He makes Robespierre look positively uncontroversial, in that even the latter-day partisans of Robespierre tend to believe that he ultimately shed excessive blood, whereas the partisans of Guevara usually do not. And, whatever you think of his politics or his conduct, his self-sacrifice in going to Bolivia was large: a man in ill health, who could have been a diplomat or a government official, chose to be a guerrilla fighter.
I don't think that we should downplay his role as an "executioner" (certainly not a "murderer", any more than a "murder victim"), but I don't think we should exaggerate it, either. It is hard to imagine that the Cuban Revolution could have proceeded without such killings, and it is not one of history's bloodier revolutions, nor is Guevara a figure like Lavrentiy Beria, known mainly for his activities in the apparatus of repression. Offhand, the article might be improved by one sentence in the lead mentioning his role overseeing executions at La Cabaña: the lead is probably a bit unbalanced in this respect. And I could imagine "deepening" the legacy section, both positive and negative. But it seems to me that, other than that, in the "narrative" portions of the article, the balance is about right, and that we have to recognize that this is an article that is never going to make everyone completely happy. - Jmabel | Talk 17:40, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
- I am not sure how his alleged "self-sacrifice" in trying to disrupt the peace in Bolivia could in any sense be considered positive except by those who support that kind of terrorist subversion. Making him into a hero for his conduct towards the Bolivian people is pushing it, IMO, SqueakBox 17:47, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
- Was the liberation of the black slaves in the United States an act of terrorist subversion? What about the French Revolution or American war of Independence? Surely they were subversive terrorists.
- Yes, there was peace in Bolivia, people were peacefully starving to death. Wryn 23:27, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
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- I'd like to add some of what Jmabel said above, to the article intro.
- There are serious, well-intentioned people who consider him a monster and there are serious, well-intentioned people who consider him a hero and role model.
- It is hard to imagine that the Cuban Revolution could have proceeded without such killings
- This would highlight the fact that appraisals of Guevara are deeply split: monster vs. hero is about as sharp a distinction as I can think of. That his "extra-judicial killings" (executions? murders?) were essential to Castro's consolidation of power may also be of interest. I'm looking into a theme of how Communist regimes get installed; it's not always via a democratic process (see "Democratically elected"), is it? --Uncle Ed 14:42, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
- Ed, what about the vast majority of people in the world who do not view the Guevara as a either a monster or a hero? And where appraisals are no more deeply split than they are about Charles de Gaulle. I don't think Jmabel is inferring that the post revolution La Cabana executions were essential for Castro's consolidation of power, they were enacted for the purposes of progressing a revolution against what was already a brutal and undemocratic state. The executions of alleged Batista strongmen and collaborators had massive popular support, were compared to the retributions in France post WWII by outside observers, and were unconnected to the the instillation of a "Communist regime" which occurred long after Guevara left La Cabana in the summer of 1959. Wars and their aftermaths tend to result in unlawful deaths. Some - far more bloody than the Cuban revolution - involve the murders of 1000s of women, children and other non-combatants. Many of those responsible for these deaths are even praised for their foresight and moral clarity. We already provide the necessary information on the events in question relating to Guevara's executions. If the facts are not enough for an encyclopedia article, then we're not writing an encyclopedia article anymore. We're writing an opinion piece. -- Zleitzen(talk) 16:10, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
- I'd like to add some of what Jmabel said above, to the article intro.
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