Talk:Chavacano language

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/summary-This is a bare-bones summary for use in translating to other languages. Please do not expand. Please feel free to enter essential only data.--Jondel 07:28, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

You are invited to vote on selecting between the names Chavacano and Chabacano, in the Languages of the Philippines page.--Jondel 01:17, 30 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Contents 1 Many of those false friends are NOT 2 Chabacano not Chavacano 3 Speakers in Sabah 4 Chavacano:False Friend 5 Census Figures: Accurate? 6 Chavacano y chabacano 7 Chabacano on Wikipedia incubator 8 Austronesian language

[edit] Many of those false friends are NOT

For one thing, the use of the word "Ya" can also be used in regular Spanish as you Filipinos use it in your creole. It can also mean past tense, it just depends on how you use it.

I agree. The word "ya" in Spanish and the word "ya" in Chabacano are not really false friends. They both denote an occurence in the past (already in Spanish) or something has occured or has completed in the past (implying the present perfect tense in Chabacano). Consider the following in Chabacano (Zamboangueño): Lavao el maga ropa. (The clothes are washed.) Lavao ya el maga ropa o el maga ropa lavao ya. (The clothes have been washed.) Ya - as it is used to imply the present perfect tense in Chabacano denotes the same meaning as "already" in Spanish. Hence they are not false friends. --Weekeejames 20:18, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

I think you Filipinos need to read this article to understand why certain Spanish words and the way they've changed in the Philippines does not necessarily mean that it's incorrect or a "false friend":

"Neutral Spanish" is irrelevant to the Chabacano article. Chabacano is NOT Spanish; it is only rich in Spanish vocabulary and influenced by a lot of Castillian words; some archaic (eg. the word "chico" in Chabacano means small; not a small boy nor chiquito (modern Spanish for small). Its vocabulary is also rich in Mexican-Spanish words due to the historical fact that the Philippines was administered indirectly by Spain and directly by Mexico. Chabacano is not in dilemma of choosing which translation variety to use because the point of reference of its vocabulary will always be standard Castillian Spanish (unlike Latin American Spanish) - especially in writing where the formal mode is to be used as a rule. "Neutral Chavacano" (as a counterpart, in this context) is not about the "terms best suited to a multinational and multicultural target audience". Because in Chavacano, there is a rule to always use the "formal" mode (predominantly Spanish) regardless whether it is being understood by the ordinary people out in the street or the educated ones in the academics, for example. --Weekeejames 20:18, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Forty-Fourth Edition - Neutral Spanish - What is it?

Neutral Spanish is not new. It is a recurring theme, one that has been brought front and center recently by the Internet and global communications. Translation services are offering it and clients are requesting it. But what is “Neutral Spanish”? I think most will agree that “Neutral Spanish” is not a language. In this writer’s opinion, it is the name given to the process that translators go through to select the term or terms best suited to a multinational and multicultural target audience.

Spanish, like any other widely spoken language, is not “vanilla” or standard. Each place, region, country, community where Spanish is spoken has added its own flavor to the language - they have adopted different words, grammatical constructs and distinct accents. For example, when Argentines dive into a swimming pool, they dive into a “pileta”. However, in Uruguay, where swimming pool is “piscina”, they would be jumping head-first into the “kitchen sink” (Ouch!). (Something you definitely need to keep in mind if you are in the resort or swimming pool business.) On the other hand, “swimming pool” in Mexico is “alberca”, which means “reservoir” in Spain, a “sink” (for washing clothes) in Colombia and a “trough” (comedero) in Bolivia and Perú. OK, you get the idea...

Now let's assume that we are working on a translation project that includes the term “swimming pool”, and our target audience is all the Spanish speaking population of the world. According to the rules, we can only select one term for “swimming pool” and our choices are: “pileta”, “piscina” and “alberca”. Which one would make our translation more “neutral”? I would select “piscina”. But, is this the right choice?

A quick check in Google (google.es) reveals the following (What a marvelous tool, the Internet!):

* “Piscina” gets 3,570,000 hits, including some hits to U.S. sites referring to “swimming pool safety”. * “Pileta” gets only 108,000 hits, including some where the meaning is “kitchen sink” or “bathroom sink”. * “Alberca” gets 235,000 hits, including some hits on sites in Spain, where the meaning is not “swimming pool”.

No, we don't suggest that you select “neutral” terms in Spanish by consulting Google. This method was only used for purposes of illustration for this newsletter. The decision should be based on your best assessment of which term is most appropriate for the target audience, based on your experience and after careful research. The operative word is “best assessment”, since, as far as I know, there is not a dictionary for “Neutral Spanish”.

Technical text tends to be more neutral and many terms are shared by Spanish speakers worldwide. For example, “reflectómetro de dominio frecuencial” (frequency-domain reflectometer) will be understood by Spanish-speaking professionals everywhere with knowledge of the subject. The same applies to “microquímica” (microchemistry), “MRI (imágenes por resonancia magnética)” (Magnetic Resonance Imaging) and other such terms. Of course, there are exceptions. For example, a computer is “una computadora” in Latin America, but “un ordenador” in Spain. Therefore, to keep it “neutral” we suggest using “equipo”, “equipo informático”, or another “neutral” term that properly conveys the intended meaning. Avoid using “computadora” or “ordenador”.

If you are dealing with the spoken language, as in the case of an interpreter, in addition to choice of words, you need to go through the process of selecting the appropriate accent (inflection, tone, rhythm) for your target audience. I recently read an article in the Washington Post Telemundo, a U.S. Spanish-language television network, and how they have been able to reduce the significant competitive edge of their major competitor, Univision, who is the leading Spanish-language television network in the U.S. Among other changes, Telemundo decided to train the actors of their telenovelas (prime time soap operas) to speak like Mexicans, specifically, like Mexican television news anchors. Anyone aspiring to become an actor in a Telemundo telenovela must be able to speak in a well-paced, accent free rhythm, whether they are originally from Cuba, Argentina, Colombia, Venezuela, Perú or Chile. Univision also encourages accent-free Spanish among its actors, but it does not enforce it like Telemundo does. And another interesting fact: Both presidential campaigns in the recent elections used “neutralized” Spanish in their Spanish-language television ads targeting Hispanic voters.

According to Telemundo, this “neutralized” Spanish is the middle ground between Colombian Spanish, that they consider too fast and terse, and some Caribbean accents that are, in their opinion, too slow and imprecise. For Telemundo executives, Mexican Spanish is “the broadest-appeal, easiest-to-understand Spanish”. Needless to say, not everyone agrees, particularly Colombian television and cultural critics. Many Colombians believe that their version of Spanish is the purest spoken. But the article also mentions that about eighty percent of Telemundo's potential audience -- households whose viewing habits are monitored by Nielsen -- is Mexican. Could it be that Telemundo is merely providing good customer service and localizing their message to the requirements of their largest audience? The bottom line is that Telemundo is doing better against their major competitor, so they must be doing something right.

The “neutralization” process should also include paying attention to variations in grammatical constructs, such as pronoun to verb correspondences. An example, is the “voseo” that consists in the use of the pronoun “vos” instead of “tú”, followed by the corresponding form of the verb - “vos sabés” instead of “tú sabes” (you know). The “voseo” is common in Argentina, but used also in other Latin American countries. It should not be confused with “Vosotros sabéis”, the form used in Spain, but not in Latin America. Other examples are “tú sabés” (instead of “tú sabes”) used in Uruguay, for instance; and forms like “tú tenís” (you have) – a variation on “vosotros tenéis” and “tú tienes” – used in Chile. “Neutral Spanish” uses “ustedes” instead of “vosotros” for the second person plural and “usted” for the second person singular. Therefore “you know” (where “you” is singular) is “usted sabe” and the plural form is “ustedes saben”.

A complete analysis of the Spanish language is most definitely beyond the scope of this newsletter, so I will leave it at this. Hopefully, I have succeeded in explaining why “Neutral Spanish” does not consist in creating a new language, or coining new terms, but in carefully selecting words that will convey your message so it will be understood, to varying degrees, by most of your targeted audience and, hopefully, misunderstood by none.

Your discussion on "Neutral Spanish" on the discussion page for Chabacano is irrelevant. Chabacano is NOT Spanish. It is not in a dilemma to choose words that are to be understood by every Chabacano speakers because in Chabacano writing, the formal mode is used. Also, please register and sign your username with four tildes ~~~~. --Weekeejames 01:12, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

(Off-topic: Why is it that in every language talk page there's a section about false friends? What';s the deal with this? --Howard the Duck 10:34, 5 February 2007 (UTC))

I don't know why it should be a topic in every language article. Perhaps Chris (who specializes in articles relating to linguistics) can explain what's the deal with it. But I think the false friend section is relevant to the Chavacano article or any article on a creole. It is also significant especially on the point of view of both Chavacano and Spanish speakers. In fact, Jondel was asking if a Chavacano speaker can understand Spanish and/or vice-versa. A little knowledge about false friends can help us understand why at a certain point, a word familiar to both has different meanings for both.

[edit] Chabacano not Chavacano

In accordance to discussion at talk page of Languages of the Philippines--Jondel 12:13, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Chavacano is chabacano, and chabacano can be Chavacano, no hay duda. Weekeejames

[edit] Speakers in Sabah

Ethnologue says there are speakers in Sabah? --Jondel 08:53, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)

There could be chavacano speakers in Sabah. In fact, it is not suprising to find chavacano speakers among the muslim Tausog tribe who live in Zamboanga City and travel from Zamboanga City to Jolo and Tawi-Tawi in Sulu, and vice-versa. Also, Sabah is not too far from Zamboanga City - which used to be the center and prime city of the southern Philippine moroland. Remember, Sabah of the northern Borneo island belonged to the Sultanate of Jolo, historicaly. Chavacano speakers in Sabah are probably of Zamboangeño origins and from the Sulu provinces who migrated and setttled in this northern part of Borneo. Weekejames

[edit] Chavacano:False Friend

Cantus,

Please do your research before editing.
This is the meaning of False Friend from wikipedia.

False friends are pairs of words in two languages that look or sound similar but differ in meaning. Such words can cause difficulty for students learning a foreign language, particularly one that is related to their native language, because the students are likely to misidentify the words due to Language interference.

In answer to your question, >>'False Friends'? Can you find a more appropriate wording?
'False Friends' is the most appropriate wording. Thank you and best regards,--Jondel 00:21, 9 Sep 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Census Figures: Accurate?

Just read regarding the census figures in this article. I doubt that the speakers of Caviteño and Ternateño is 210,000. Ethnologue's figures are more like 31,000. There needs to be a clarification in the article. There are over 200,000 speakers of Zamboangueño alone, so if Caviteño and Ternateño speakers number 210,000, then Chabacano should have more than 400,000 speakers?

I looked at the Philippine census and Chabacano basically refers to Zamboangueño. According to the census, Caviteño is an "ethnic group" according to the results but I doubt if most people who checked the term can actually speak Caviteño. Zamboangueño remains as the lingua franca of Zamboanga City and is the most common of the Chabacano dialects (are they mutually intelligible considering that Chabacano in the Southern Philippines has been influenced by Cebuano while those in the North are influenced by Tagalog?). Given the size of Zamboanga City, there are probably 500,000 who can speak the language, of which 292,000 speak them at home (which is how the census was conducted). However, almost all speakers of Caviteño and Ternateño can speak Tagalog and there's doubt whether people who refer themselves as Caviteño used language as a criterion.

--wng

can Spaniards or Mexicans understand this language at all? or is too different from Spanish?

Yes if spoken slowly. Different in that the grammar is very bad compared to proper spanish grammar.--Jondel 04:56, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

I seem to understand it, being a Spanish-speaker myself and having been to the Chabacano Wikipedia and having Zamboangueño acquaintances myself. But I need some work figuring out the finer points of its grammar, and I cannot write nor speak the language properly. The next thing I need to do is try having a conversation with my Zamboangueño friends, them speaking Chabacano and me Spanish and see if our conversation will make sense.

[edit] Chavacano y chabacano

Now the article looks better than ever! I'll try to improve it more. Muchisimas Gracias! -Weekeejames

[edit] Chabacano on Wikipedia incubator

Please improve this! I am very happy for the implementors!

Thank you. We need more Chabacano contributors. Jondel and I have been the only ones working on it. Seems like I'm the only native Chabacano registered user here and alas, I don't have enough time right now to fully implement it and my 'puter at home is sick. :( But at least we've started it and it will slowly and surely see the break of dawn from the incubator to a fully implemented Chavacano Wikipedia. Gracias. --Weekeejames 20:28, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Austronesian language

It seems to me that Zamboangueño is not a creole but an Austronesian-grammar language using Spanish vocabulary. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 210.213.172.51 (talk) 14:09, 3 February 2007 (UTC).

Thanks, but your impression is mistaken; it is indeed a creole. --Chris S. 23:03, 3 February 2007 (UTC)