Talk:Charles V, Holy Roman Emperor

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Contents

[edit] Adrian of Utrecht

I saw no reason for a link to "Adrian of Utrecht" when there is already a link to "Pope Adrian VI," especially when there is no "Adrian of Utrecht" entry and they are the same person. Therefore, I took out the link.

Anonymous 4/9/03

[edit] Name

Many call him "Carlos I de España y V de Alemania" (Charles I of Spain and V of Germany), not just "Carlos V". It looks like he is better known by both of his titles... Sabbut 20:29, 12 Nov 2003 (UTC)

This doesn't seem to be empirically true: It appears that all other Wikipedias except the Spanish (and possibly the Chinese) one refer to him primarily as Charles V. The English Wikipedia article should be named following the term most common in English, which, I think, is his Holy Roman Emperor number. Martg76 22:42, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Also, HR Emperor was his highest title, and it should be used as his primary title, and thus regnal number. -Alex, 12.220.157.93 09:18, 27 December 2005 (UTC).


[edit] Infanta Isabella

Is there an article about Infanta Isabella? Is she listed on the Isabella-disambiguatation page? WouterVH 21:52, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

If you're talking about Infanta Isabella Clara Eugenia of Spain, then yes and yes. --IvanP 18:17, 28 August 2005 (UTC)


[edit] Abdication

Why exactly did Charles give up all his power when he did? And why did he not try to pass it on as a single empire?

very likely because he of all people should have known what a strain such a duty would have been for one man to be occupied with, so he merly made sure that it didnt happen. Plus, as his son, Philip II was intitled to be his heir, and as a reward to his brother for being his regent in Germany and helping him with many various important things there that be left that domain to Ferdinand. The reformation in Germany was brewing, the Turks in the south invading, the French causing trouble in Italy, plus Spain and the "new world" possesions.....and look what happened within time with those things, and imagine how easily it would have been had one person ruled it for it to all fall apart......The Thirty Years War, the seige of Vienna, the eventual aggression of France....not something id presonally like to deal with by myself.

Charles V was suffering from bad health conditions and he was "tired" of being a ruler in his later years. His son and brother were already able to stand on their own. The truimph of Protestants in some parts of the Holy Roman Empire also perhaps "broke" his heart and he saw the corrputed pope, who was only busy with their papal state, as another big disappointment. -- Swimfan October 28, 2005

Essentially, it was too much for one man to rule. Charles was exhausted at the end of his reign, and so split the territories. This seems better in the long run, anyway. -Alex, 12.220.157.93 07:10, 16 February 2006 (UTC).

[edit] More Needed

This article on one of the most powerful monarchs in history is about the same length as the obscure Prince Frederick, Duke of York and Albany. Charles V deserves more here. How do we make this a candidate for a Collaboration? --StanZegel 21:00, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

The rules there are that the article must be a stub of no more than two paragraphs. Is there some alternate mechanism? --StanZegel (talk) 06:23, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

There is a fantasitic book by Karl Brandi on Charles V, translated by C. V. Wedgewood and published by Alfred A Knopf of New York, 1939 which would be a good resource for this article.

[edit] Nationality

I have changed this part a bit, mentioning his place of birth (Okay, I admit, it's my home town). I wouldn't say "It is hard to say what nationality Charles really held". He was clearly not French, Spanish, German, Italian or Austrian so he must have been Flemish: he was born there and when he moved to Spain as emperor, appointed many Flemings to high offices in Spain. Even though Spain was the center of his empire, he spent many of his later years in Flanders too. I just removed the line. Piet 13:36, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

It is hard to say what nationality he held, but it's also an anachronistic question. Culturally he was a Burgundian. Str1977 09:52, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Agree on the first part, that why I removed it from the article. But Burgundian? Only one of his grandparents was Burgundian and when he was born, most of Burgundy was already a part of France. Anyway, I like the changes you made. I planned to work on this article but it's difficult to find time. Piet 14:36, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Well, by blood, was he not Spanish? His mother was Spanish and his father was an the Austrian King of Aragon, which was merged into Spain. Thus, he'd be spanish or austro-spanish. -Alex, 12.220.157.93 21:28, 14 February 2006 (UTC).

Philip was Austrian-Burgundian. He had nothing to do with Spain except through his wife. He was born in Bruges, Flanders, he got married in Flanders, Charles was born and spent his childhood there. Piet 08:07, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Why is Carlos V the name of a Spanish chocolate bar? 14 March 2006

[edit] First King of Spain

I moved the follwing over from the article, for rewording:

He is considered (the first) King of Spain though in fact his son was the first to use that title. He was king from 1516 to 1556 (in principle, he was from 1516 king of Aragon and from 1516 guardian of his insane mother, queen of Castile who died 1555, and the co-king of Castile 1516-55, full king 1555-56), ...

No doubt it's valuable information, but how should we include it. As it stood, it seemed a bit bulking up the opening section. Any thoughts? Str1977 09:52, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I think I fixed it. The info is now either included in the succession passage (including the him vs. Philip II as first king of Spain), the specific years are included in the succession box. Str1977 10:14, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Conflict with Cortes

"He eventually won and from then on Castilian Cortes were keen on conceding him the vast resources needed for the numerous wars he waged in Europe." I don't think they ever were _keen_ on paying for the wars abroad. And I don't think he really won the support of the cortes just by beating them on the battlefield. But I will do some research and try to make changes. Piet 14:42, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Quote (copied from above)

"I speak Spanish to God, Italian to women, French to men and German to my horse."

I have heard a very similar quote (with Latin substituted for Spanish) ascribed to Frederick II of Prussia. Could anyone provide documentary evidence for the statement(s)?

Mmartins 17:42, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I would like to put it in the article in the "Nationality section" to illustrate Charles' view on his own nationality. But first a source. Piet 13:47, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Seeing as Frederick II of Prussia was an athiest, which is explicitly stated in his article, how could he speak "Spanish to god"? -Alex, 12.220.157.93 21:30, 14 February 2006 (UTC).

I googled "Charles V" "spanish to god" and came up with 2,460 hits and then googled "Charles V" "latin to god" and came up with only 40.

[edit] Epithet

In the book, "The Habsburgs: Embodying Empire", it is noted that Charles V was sometimes known by a Spanish epithet, "El Dorado", or "The Golden One", due to how he ruled both the Austrian and Spanish territories. Should this be mentioned? -Alex, 12.220.157.93 23:55, 29 January 2006 (UTC).

[edit] Family and nationality

The prime influence in his early life was the culture and courtly life of the Netherlands. I don't see what was wrong with the Low Countries. The Netherlands is a confusing term, I think it is clearer to speak of Burgundian Netherlands, Seventeen Provinces, Spanish Netherlands, United Provinces and so on. In this case I think Burgundian Netherlands would be the best choice since that is his prime heritage. Some reactions please as I think it has been changed a couple of times already. Piet 10:42, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Expand

I've removed the expand tag, I would prefer it not to be on top of the page. This doesn't mean the article doesn't have to be expanded any more :-) Any comments? Piet 13:32, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Flemish language

The language Charles was brought up in was changed to "Dutch" with the comment "There is no flemish language, see Dutch language or Flemish linguistics". There may be no Flemish language now (officially), but there was no Dutch language in 1500. And if there was a Dutch language, then Charles was definitely not brought up in it. I'm quite certain that his contemporaries would have described his language as "Flemish". The line pointed to a book by Henry Kamen, which states (quote) he was brought up to speak only French and Flemish, but soon added Spanish and a smattering of German. I will therefore change it back, unless someone objects. Piet 21:28, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Charles no doubt knew how to speak Flemish, but his first language would have been French. At the time, French was the lingua franca of the aristocratic classes in the Low Countries.

Nope, sorry, you must take into account how Charles really lived during his youth and early manhood:
Hunting with poachers, drinking with robbers, riding with highwaymen, sleeping with whores and making fun with - and mocking of - the lot of them.
AND THEY ALL SPOKE FLEMISH!!! (The word 'Dutch' (Nederlands) didn't even exist in those days).
He may have mocked them, but he LOATHED the aristocracy - In his eyes there was no aristocracy - There was only Him (Second to God) and peasants.
Yes, his mother-tongue was Flemish, no doubt, and he hated any other language (Except perhaps German as this is indeed somewhat more fit to grumble to a horse)!
81.246.135.75 20:56, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Carlos V

I see no reason to add the Spanish name so prominently at the top of the article. It is not how he is known in the English language. He was not Spanish and he did not rule as Carlos V in Spain. If we add his name in other languages, it should be later in the introduction and names in French, Dutch and Italian should be added as well. Piet 19:30, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

I followed the link Carlos V, and came to this page. Since it was mentioned nowhere in the article I had to do a bit of investigation as to whether the link was correct or not. This seems unpractical. You could change the 14 links to Carlos V of course Special:Whatlinkshere/Carlos V but since a number of different users put that name in 14 different articles, it will be put in other articles and wikilinked again. It should be mentioned somewhere in the article; I agree it is not necessary to mention it as one of the first words but preferrably, one shouldn't have to search the entire article to find that you indeed ended up on the right spot. // Habj 23:21, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
He was Carlos I of Spain, but not Carlos V. Karl V, as his German name which was used in the Holy Roman Empire, should perhaps be mentioned, though. john k 00:50, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

We could mention all his names but I don't think it is necessary, the lead section will get long. If we add one, then we have to add all the others to (Spanish, French, Dutch, German, Italian); there are reasons to add every one of them. Concerning Spanish: I don't think Carlos V is what he was called in Spain so maybe that redirect has to be changed into a disambiguation page that clarifies this; that would solve the problem Habj encountered. We don't have to change this page because of a wrong redirect. Piet 06:41, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

The topics of most of those 14 languages are related to Puerto Rico, Mexico, Peru, Colombia, Chile. If he was generally referred to as Carlos V anywhere in the world, then the redirect is not wrong. For now, I add the info last in the article. Then at last you find it letting the browser searching for the word. // Habj 12:35, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

I've moved it to the top anyway, it was there already as "the ordinal of ...". Concerning the redirect, I don't agree. Carlos V in Spanish has four meanings (see es.wikipedia):

  • Rey Carlos I de España y emperador del Sacro Imperio Romano
  • Carlos V Leopoldo
  • Carlos V el Sabio
  • Carlos V, nombre con que pretendió el trono español el Infante Carlos María Isidro de Borbón

You cannot decide that whoever makes a link to Carlos V will mean the Charles V the HRE. So I've changed the redirect to point to Charles V the disambiguation page. Piet 19:48, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Once again, he was never called "Carlos V" in Spain. In Spain he was called "Carlos I." In the Spanish language today, he might occasionally be called "Emperador Carlos V," but this name is not significant enough that it should be listed in the article. john k 03:55, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] El Dorado

Is this epithet ever used in English? I think the remark has little value, especially in the introduction. Piet 13:16, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

I've removed it. If anyone thinks it is absolutely necessary, please explain. Piet 08:45, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pragmatic Sanction

Don't just delete something without saying why. It's bad manners. The article is in need of expansion, not shortening. Piet 08:41, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Revert

I've reverted a few additions:

  • some people refer to him also as Charles V & I
  • Charles son [ Phillip ] got married to Marry Tutor also known as Bloody Marry. Marry Tutor also was Charles' 1st cousion.
  • Indeed, he is quoted in the Oxford Dictionary of Quotations as having said, "To God I speak Spanish; to women, Italian; to men, French; and to my horse, German."

The first two contain mistakes and do not make the article better; the quote was in the text somewhere else. Please take some time to preview before saving. Piet 07:42, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Plus Oultre

What does this mean and what does it have to do with Charles V? Piet 15:47, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Plus Oultre (Latin: Plus Ultra) means something like "more beyond" and was Charles V's personal motto. It can be seen on many devices, often in combiantion with the Pillars of Hercules (Straits of Gibraltar) to symbolize both the infinite extant of his imperial claims as well as his conquests into the unknown New World. Thomas Antonius 16:27, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, I'll add it to the caption. Hmm, there's actually an article about it. If I had checked that this question would have been unnecessary. Thanks for the answer. Piet 18:27, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] New Charles V image

I think the old image was much better. What was the reason for replacing it? Piet 08:57, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Recent additions problems

Hallo, there are some problems with the recent additions (from the Spanish WP)

"With the death of his grandfather, Ferdinand II, on May 30, 1516 Charles became heir to the throne of Aragon. He was proclaimed king of Castile by the Cortes of Valladolid in 1518, but with some conditions: he would learn to speak Castillian; he would end the appointments of foreigners; he was prohibited from taking precious metals from Castile; and he would treat his mother, Juana la Loca, former queen, with more respect.

"Charles was formally crowned king of Aragon in 1518 in Zaragoza, before the Cortes of Aragon. For the first time the crowns of Castile and Aragon were united in one person. Ferdinand and Isabella had each been sovereign in one kingdom, but only consort in the other."

  • Some info contained in the first para is already covered a section above. This should be merged.
  • The way I understand it, is that in 1516 Charles succeeded his grandfather Ferdinand as king of Aragon (and didn't become heir) and as ruler of Castilia on behalf of Juana. Ferdinand was regent and Charles now became co-King.
  • Some issues with the conditions:
    • "end the appointments" - had there been appointment of foreigners before? If not, Charles could have hardly ended them. Or was the condition that he wouldn't appoint foreigner (this did become an issue in his first few years as king)
    • "treat his mother ... with more respect" - did he disrespect her in any way before? I think not. I guess the condition meant that he should treat his mother with respect, or rather should respect the fact that she was the Queen in the end (and hence superior to him).
      • "the former Queen" is definitely wrong. Juana was Queen all the way from her mother's death until her own. That she was incapable of ruling is another thing, but she was Queen nonetheless. Certainly she was no former Queen, as that would require her stepping down at one point. The only such point is her death.

Finally, I think it more appropriate to change the sequence from Castilia and Aragon to Aragon and Castilia, as it was Ferdinand's death that brought this about. Is there anything that would speak against this?

Str1977 (smile back) 14:56, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Go ahead! Piet 08:19, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
I did. But I am still baffled by the proclamation as King of Castile in 1518. Was it really in 1518, or was it in 1516 (which would exlain the sequence above) - or is it talking not about a proclamation but an act of coronation or submission, when he first visited his new territories (that is what the Aragon event looks like). Some one in the know, please speak up. Str1977 (smile back) 13:06, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
I found the answer. It was an act of homage by the various Cortes. I will edit the article accordingly. Str1977 (smile back) 13:09, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Different territories

One more thing: Was Charles really proclaim King of Castile only in 1518? That seems to be a pretty long interval. Str1977 (smile back) 15:02, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

We can proceed by two ways with this article:

  • Either we first recount in one section the sequence of his accession in his various territories, spanning from 1506 (Burgundy) to 1519 (Empire) and deal with his reign in later, separate section (that was the rationale behind the former version)
  • Or we put in a section for every country, relating the accession there (this is the current state)

But we must decide between these two.

Str1977 (smile back) 15:32, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, someone must decide between the two. But both have advantages and disadvantages. Doing it chronologically will be confusing I think. But when treating the different regions separately, the relations become less clear (Spain having to divide its military between all the regions, so wars in the mediterranean had consequences for the north). I would keep the division in territories though. Piet 08:19, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Corrections

I also have made a couple of corrections:

  • Either Low Countries or Netherlands, otherwise we will confuse the reader.
  • The Low Countries always remained fiefs of either the Emperor or the King of France, they never became independent, never could have become independent.
  • I avoided references to "his family", as he had more than one family, as the "family section" amply demonstrates.

Str1977 (smile back) 15:32, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

  1. Agreed. I prefer the Netherlands and I think it is more common although it could be confused with the modern country.
  2. Not sure why you bring this up; after the Pragmatic Sanction of 1549 the Netherlands became independent of the HRR and of France. When Charles split the empire, he did not pass the HRR fiefs to the holy Roman Empire but kept them as a part of Spain. Territories that went back to France later were conquered in war. So effectively in 1549 all ties were cut for good.
  3. I suppose it would refer to the Habsburg side, but I guess you're right.
Piet 08:19, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Dear Piet,

  • I don't mind either Low Countries or Netherlands, but it should be consisted. LC might draw attention to the fact that this is not the same as todays's Netherlands.
  • I have to contradict you on the Pragmatic Sanction. The Netherlands did not become independent from the HRE. It might have ensured that Flanders was no longer a French fief (not sure about this), but the whole Netherlands remained within the HRE. The United Netherlands remained part of it until after the Thirty Years' War, the Souther Netherlands until the French Revolution. After Charles, the (Spanish) Netherlands remained in the possession of the Spanish King but he held it as a fief from the Emperor (Austrian line). After the Spanish lines ended, it was the Austrian line that inherited the Netherlands and held it until the revolution, always a fied from the Emperor (who however mostly was a Habsburg).
  • Yes, "his family" I would consider first and foremost the Habsburgs. Hence, referring to the Burgundian Netherlands as the region of his family was seriosly wrong. Habsburgs coming from Austria, Northern Swittzerland and originally the Alsace.

Str1977 (smile back) 13:00, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Pragmatic Sanction: I got a wrong notion then somewhere, I'll look it up. You can change this article if you want, I have probably been wrong about it. We should expand the Pragmatic Sanction of 1549 article a bit to make all this clear. It is however true that the Netherlands from then on have a history that is separate from France and the German states. Piet 13:47, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
Wow! The 17 provinces were never, as a whole, a fief of the HRE nor France. The Burgundians united them, some of them were previously fiefs of France and others were and remained in the HRE but not the whole of them. So the corrections to the pertinent article are correct on that point but the provinces were already united (de facto) previously, the Pragmatic Sanction only guaranteed that they would remain to the Hasbourg and outside of the HRE (to avoid giving the same rights to protestants in the LC). --moyogo 12:59, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
Exactly, each of the various territories was either a fief of the Roman Emperor or a fief of the French King. The Burgundians united them under one ruler, the Duke of Burgundy. The Habsburgs inherited the whole collection (safe the Duchy of Burgundy). The Pragmatic Sanction ensured the unity of the territories in the future (just as the P.S. of Charles VI did with the Habsburg Monarchy). Str1977 (smile back) 14:31, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
Hm I missed that in Str1977's remark. Were the southern netherlands as a whole in the HRE? I don't think Flanders ever was. Piet 14:05, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
Yep. Only the United Netherlands (now the Kingdom of that name) achieved formal independence in 1648 (or 1654, depending on which peace treaty you prefer) - idependence from the HRE and from Spain. The South remained with Spain (and later the Austrian Habsburgs) and withing the HRE until the Revolution swept over it. Str1977 (smile back) 14:31, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
But Flanders traditionally was a part of France, not the HRE. How did that change? That it was a part of Spain does not imply that it was within the HRE. When the empire was split by Charles V, the Netherlands were NOT passed to HRE Ferdinand I, but to Philip. Piet 16:03, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
Yes, that's right. Flanders was one of the territories that were fiefs of the French king (the major one of these by far). It was to my knowledge never a part of the HRE, at least not until Louis XIV, who tried to conquer Flanders. He succeeded partly and I think the other part was released from being a French fief, at the latest with the duty of Utrecht. Str1977 (smile back) 16:38, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Flanders and Artois became part of the Holy Roman Empire with the Treaty of Cambrai in 1529. While it is true that the southern Netherlands (well, more accurately, the central Netherlands, as the actual southern Netherlands are now the two northernmost departments of France) remained technically part of the Holy Roman Empire until the French Revolutionary Wars, iirc it is also true that the Pragmatic Sanction of 1549 did give them de facto independence, in that they were no longer subject to the acts of the Reichstag, but were pretty much the possessions of their prince to do with as he wished. The Kings of Spain had pretty much absolute sovereignty over the Spanish Netherlands after 1549, in a way that no other prince of the Empire did. They were still part of the HRE on paper, but they were also pretty much completely sovereign. Their situation after 1549 was similar to that of northern Italy - technically part of the Empire, but with no actual defined connections to it, besides the Duke of Burgundy's right to a seat on the Prince's Bench in the diet. The Burgundian Circle of the Empire consisted only of the Burgundian provinces, and thus the ruler of the area had no connection to the rest of the Empire through the Imperial Circle Estates.

In terms of where Charles's family came from, it's of course true that the Habsburgs themselves were Austrian, but Charles's father and aunt both grew up in and spent most of their lives in the Low Countries, and Charles himself and at least some of his sisters grew up there as well. john k 17:20, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, John, for clearing that up. Note that we should strive to including both the legal status and the de facto conditions and not sacrifice the one to the other or vice versa. Str1977 (smile back) 19:29, 10 July 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Incan Empire (Peru) and Aztec Empire (Mexico)

I am missing in the article references to the camapigns against those two american empires. I think those were key moments in the history of our civilization. Don you agree??

Thanks!

The article has a brief discussion of Cortez and Pizzarro's conquests, and I don't think anything more is warranted. It is certainly true that these were very important events, but they were not all that important for Charles - his own attention was more focused on the complex issues of the rise of Lutheranism in Germany, his struggles with Francis I of France, and defending Europe against the Ottoman menace. It seems to me that an article about Charles should focus on the events in which he was centrally involved, many of which are covered inadequately and amateurishly (the discussion of his wars with Francis is achronological and full of awkward phrasing, for instance), rather than on events done half a world away in his name, which he himself had little to do with. john k 12:37, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Charles's travels

One thing this article lacks is any coherent sense of where Charles was at any given time. Since he was a seriously peripatetic monarch, this would surely be useful.

If I recall correctly, Charles was in the Netherlands until 1517, when he proceeded to Spain upon Ferdinand's death. He stayed in Spain until his other grandfather's death in 1519, when he left Spain, briefly visited England, and went to Germany to be crowned King at Aachen. He stayed in Germany until 1521, then returned to Spain. He remained in Spain until the conclusion of peace in 1529, and then proceeded to Italy, where he was crowned Emperor by the Pope at Bologna in 1530, and then went on back to Germany, where he presides over some more irritating diets on the Lutheran issue and leads a campaign on the Danube against the Turks in 1532. I assume he returned to Spain after this, and then led the expidition against Tunis in 1535. He also personally invaded Provence in 1536, during the war with France. Seems to have returned to Spain after that(?) then marched across France to crush a rebellion in Ghent in 1540. He led an expedition against Algiers in 1541-42, and he was again in the Netherlands during the 1542-1544 war, and was in Germany during the Schmalkaldic war of 1546-1547, and again in either Germany or the Netherlands during most of his last war with the French, finally abdicating in Brussels. He then returned to Spain and ended his life there. But there's still some gaps. Can anyone fill this in? john k 13:03, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

BTW, can anyone read Italian? The Italian Charles V article seems much better than ours, notably because it describes his life in more or less chronological order, rather than the awkward topical organization here - an encyclopedia article on someone's life should, I think, generally be chronological. john k 13:07, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Change in heading of the article

I reverted the change made by Qp10qp as it to me made the introductory section seem unneccesarily large. I am sorry if an explanation was made, but I could not find the reference on the talk page mentioned with the edit. The dates added are already made clear in the 'Reign' chapter. Mainly, I did not see why in this particular section of the article there should be made a distiction (although correct) between 'German king' and 'Holy Roman Emperor', but not between 'king of Castile' and 'king of Aragon'. 'King of Spain' was not used, I believe, until the reign of Philip II of Spain. Besides, if mentioning the dates for these, the dates for him being Duke of Burgundy and the other assorted Netherlands should also be mentioned (The correct dates can be viewed at the succesion boxes at the end of the article). To me it seems that mentioning all dates would make the section rather cluttered up, but maybe a compromise could be reached? Tom 01:29, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

The comment that I was about to post would have said that this change was provisional and would have raised some questions. My overriding intention was to provide some dates for Charles's reigns in the opening section, as is normal in Wikipedia. The lack of those at the moment is a great shame.
I'm sorry you felt the need to revert this wholesale because it took me ages to research; I took into account that connected lists of monarchs on Wikipedia — List of Spanish monarchs, List of Leonese monarchs, List of Castilian monarchs, List of Aragonese Monarchs — say that Charles may be considered King of Spain, even if Aragon and Castile were still technically individual monarchies. The details about Aragon and Castile are addressed in the article, even with a footnote, so no deception of the reader is involved.
The addition of the German kingship was not a distinction but merely a fact: that Charles was German king from 1519 to 1530 (I'm interested in German history and this reign was certainly important to the electors there: for example, he chaired the Diets of Worms and Augsburg). Charles was the last of the crowned Holy Roman emperors and should not be dated like an emperor-elect.
As for the succession boxes being correct, are you sure? The German succession box claims that Charles was King of Germany from 1519 until 1556; but Ferdinand I was elected German king in 1531 and it was impossible to have two kings or to be the king and emperor at the same time. The box for Castile and Leon says that Charles was guardian and regent for Joanna until 1555, whereas the article says he was crowned co-king, which I favour.
Anyway, I wash my hands of it. I just think the schoolkids etc. that come here should be given a few dates at the beginning, as they are for most other monarchs.
By the way, before reverting a good-faith edit that has an edit summary saying "see Talk", do give the editor a chance to get his comment up: in a case like this, it takes some time to compose; I was including some questions about Charles's abdication date as emperor too.qp10qp 00:10, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
I apologize, my revert was rather rushed; it was late and I was tired, if that's any excuse. On second thought, I do agree with your edit more then I did at first, it does seems costumary to put the dates at the beginning. Also, you are right about the succession boxes, I think: Ferdinand, not Charles, was indeed German king after 1530 and co-king with Joanna does sound more correct. I however still do not agree with the use of 'king of Spain', as it Charles was indeed the first to rule over all Spanish kingdoms, but these were in no way an united country. Taking your edit in mind, I will edit the part again; I hope this way we both agree. Again, apologies for my rushed decision. Tom 09:22, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
Well, I think your version now is a dog's dinner, if I may say so. And you seem to rely too heavily on the succession boxes, which are certainly not in their final correct state yet (for example, look at your dates for archdukeship). Wikipedia style requires that the most notable titles come first, yet you relegate the fact that Charles was emperor to low down the pecking order.
As for whether he may be called "King of Spain" or not, I admit that my first draft had "King of Spain, the first to effectively unite the kingdoms of Castile and Aragon", which I feared might be called rather clumsy but which is the formula on Spanish Wikipedia, :
Carlos I de España, (Gante, 24 de febrero de 1500 – Cuacos de Yuste, Cáceres, 21 de septiembre de 1558).Rey de España, apodado el Emperador, fue el primer rey que unió en su persona las coronas de Castilla y Aragón.
The German page simply calls him the King of Spain:
Karl V. (* 24. Februar 1500 in Gent; † 21. September 1558 im Kloster San Jerónimo de Yuste, Extremadura) war von 1516 an König Karl I. von Spanien....
The Italian Wikipedia is a featured article, and has:
Carlo di Gand, meglio conosciuto come Carlo V, Re di Spagna, Arciduca d'Austria e Imperatore del Sacro Impero Romano-Germanico (S.R.I.)
Even they don't go giving dates about Naples and Sicily, by the way (the dates of lesser titles aren't usually given at the start of articles).
"King of Spain" is common on Wikipedia and Amazon etc. because that's how Charles is popularly known. I perfectly understand your point of view, but if we only called things what they were called from the start, we wouldn't name the Holy Roman Empire, Catholicism, Protestantism etc. as we do. I could go on forever with examples.
Anyway, I'm not going to change it again, because I see another two hours' research looming up. qp10qp 12:37, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
The title "King of Spain" was formally used for the first time in 1808 by Joseph Bonaparte. It was then adopted by Ferdinand VII on his restoration and used ever since. The Spanish kingdoms did not become a single entity until 1713 or so, as I recall, when the Aragonese crown lands were deprived of their special privileges as a result of their rebellion against Philip V during the War of the Spanish Succession. Thus, at the very least, none of the Habsburg rulers was any more "King of Spain" than Charles V, and, arguably, the first three generations of Bourbon rulers were also deficient in this respect. john k 12:24, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ludwig of Bavaria

Someone added this guy, I don't know him and it's unlclear if he has an article. It wouldn't be Louis X, Duke of Bavaria because he died in 1545 and neither him nor his brother had a son called Ludwig. If we don't find him, I would remove him from this article. Also, the claim that he was with Charles on his death bed should have a source. Piet | Talk 14:22, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

I've thrown him out. Piet | Talk 13:14, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Name

Due to my Anglocentric education, I have no idea what German equivalent of "Charles" the HRE would have called himself - most likely Carl or Karl, I suppose. But I truly have to wonder if he would have considered himself to be simultaneously Charles, Karl, and Carlos. If we could ask him, what would he say his name was? Forgive me, please, for starting down such a slippery slope, but it has always bugged me that so many people in European history have these Anglicized names. It completely obscures what they would have actually originally been called. Take Joan/Janne of Arc, or Christopher Columbus, which is surely too Anglicized a name for it to have truly been his, regardless of whether he was in fact Spanish or Italian. Anyway, I'm curious your views on this. (Please don't hurt me.) LordAmeth 11:46, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

In this case, the "anglicized" name is probably also the one Charles would have used himself. He grew up in the Low Countries, and French was, so far as I'm aware, his first language. The French equivalent of the English Charles is, er, Charles. Beyond this, spelling and names and so forth were not even standardized until more recent times. Using an anglicized version for the middle ages doesn't seem terribly problematic, because the supposed "native" version is usually just as much a retrospective standardization. john k 12:10, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
I agree. Just to mention this, however, he did (as most people of the era) not have a 'standard spelling' for his name. Especially Charles, who was overlord of many territories with many languages, and spoke several languages himself, would have been referred to with the regional variation of his name. I know for a fact that in Middle Dutch he was called Kaerle (Karel) in several official documents which were issued in his name. I'm pretty sure Carolus (Latin), Karl (German), and Carlos ('Spanish') would have been used as well. Also one must consider that many people used different names for themselves back then: only look at the humanists that made up latinized versions of theit own vulgar names, and others simply did not have a standard spelling for their names (many people did not even spell their own name the same every time). The anglicised version is probably just fine (and is, in this case, at least one of the names that would have been used for him anyway). Tom 12:47, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
Additionally, "Carlo" is likely to have been used in Sardinia, Naples, and Sicily. john k 13:18, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] ural depictions of Charles V, Holy Roman Emperor

I've started an approach that may apply to Wikipedia's Core Biography articles: creating a branching list page based on in popular culture information. I started that last year while I raised Joan of Arc to featured article when I created Cultural depictions of Joan of Arc, which has become a featured list. Recently I also created Cultural depictions of Alexander the Great out of material that had been deleted from the biography article. Since cultural references sometimes get deleted without discussion, I'd like to suggest this approach as a model for the editors here. Regards, Durova 17:20, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ancestry infobox

Why isn't there a infobox with Charles V ancestry like the other spanish monarchs? Actually where can I find the infobox's template and can I add them to the other monarchs in wikipedia?--Cosmos666 22:37, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Birthplace of Charles V

Recent research shows that Charles V was not born on 24/2/1500, but a few days earlier. He also might not have been born in Ghent but in Eeklo which is about 20 km from Ghent.

There is no indication of a signigicant birth in the accounts of the City of Ghent around 24/2. In those of the city of Eeklo on the other hand, around this date, there is indication of purchase of vast amounts of wine, celebrations and the welcoming of various distinguished leaders and messengers.

Jay 4/11/2006

Do you have a source for that? Piet | Talk 16:21, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Birthplace seems to have been vandalized to "Ghetto". I changed it back to "Ghent" to conform to the pages in French, Spanish, Italian, German, Dutch, & Catalan. But of course it should be changed to Eeklo if that can be confirmed. Adamgarrigus 07:23, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Lead section

The lead section has become completely ridiculous now. Not a single word about his importance, just a load of names and dates. It needs to be rewritten completely. Piet | Talk 13:33, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Vandalism

Can someone please fix the text that has been inserted 'TITLE: BUTTMUNCHES FROM MARS TAKE OVER CANADA!'? I do not know how. This is probably not even in the correct area. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.229.9.156 (talk • contribs) at 00:24, 5 February 2007.

That was actually removed 2 days ago. Maybe you should clear your browser cache. Piet | Talk 08:18, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] InfoBox

I've put in an infobox, in which I have tried to condense as much information as I can. I've also rearranged some images, so that there aren't big gaps in the middle of the article. --MC 12:20, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Somebody has altered the infobox, and whilst the flags look nice, there are no longer any dates. Also, I'm not sure about the titles 'Lord of the Netherlands' and 'Lord of Flanders'. I'll leave this message here for a while, and if nobody objects, I'll revert it. --MC 19:14, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

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