Talk:Charities accused of ties to terrorism

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[edit] Requested move

Charities accused of ties to terrorism → Charities referred to in connection with terrorism – Similar to List of cults being changed to List of groups referred to as cults the new title distances Wikipedia from having the appearance of being the accuser. The logic for this is similar to the reason that September_11,_2001_attacks article is not entitled September_11,_2001_terrorist_attacks and much like that article wherein it's established that the acts were terrorism, this article can establish that these charities are accused of ties to terrorism apart from the title (see how Encarta and Britannica refer to 9/11 attacks). In this way the 'at first glance' separation between Wikipedia and those doing the accusing is established even before one reads the article.

Add *Support or *Oppose preferably adding a brief comment, then sign your opinion with ~~~~
  • Support as nominator for reasons specified above. Netscott 17:17, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose - I think "referred to" is unnecessarily weak, and "accused of" is more accurate. In fact, I'd prefer "accused of supporting terrorism" over the current "accused of ties to terrorism", since that is, I believe, the main issue here. GRuban 17:36, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
  • Let me just say I don't feel very strongly either way, and it all is basically moot, but I Oppose the proposed name change and agree with GRuban's "accused of supporting terrorism." KI 18:04, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
  • I don't feel strongly either, however "accused of" is more appropriate and doesn't sound strange. So oppose. --a.n.o.n.y.m t 19:00, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose - Wikipedia is repeating the accusing by reporting it and therefore should say so. Raphael1 22:46, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
  • Support - Identifying courts as more or less reliable than other "reputable sources" is problematic. Whilst the changed title's more verbose, it also clearly provides WP an NPOV detachment. Nysin 14:52, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose. The title is perfectly fine as is. It means just what it says: Charities accused of ties to terrorism. I see nothing about the title or the article that would make anyone conclude that the accusations come from Wikipedia itself. wikipediatrix 14:00, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion

Add any additional comments
  • Alternative - add (as with terrorist-suspects in the Converts to Islam section) another category: charities suspected of terrorist links (of course, by reputable sources) and charities which have been identified by courts as supporters of terrorism. --Xorox 07:31, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment All the titles suggested above seem neutral to me. But I strongly oppose the renaming we experienced on April 3rd, where a contributor unilaterally renamed the article Charities with ties to terrorism. That choice implies that the connection is a real, proven connection. I would strongly oppose that choice, or any similarly POV choices. -- Geo Swan 15:09, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment With the accuser column, the specific wording of the title seems less important, since it's clearer who precisely is doing the accusing and that Wikipedia is merely reporting. Nysin 12:53, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Removing NPOV title tag

It's been a week since the proposal was made, and discussion seems to have died down. I count two supports, five opposes, and two neutrals, and one of the supports seems to have weakened his support later, above, so I think we've reached a rough consensus that the current title is good enough. Thank you all for your help. -- GRuban 14:29, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Article Title

This article title is very wrong... and seriously suffers from a lack of NPOV. 'Accused'? Who's doing the accusing? WikiPedia? I don't think so! See Wikipedia:Words_to_avoid#Words_which_can_advance_a_point_of_view. Netscott 14:04, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Didn't you see that each charity has at least one link to a source where they are accused?
The wikipolicy recommends caution in the use of words like "accused" because they often "lack a verifiable source"
Each of the charities listed here is backed up by a verifiable source. -- Geo Swan 14:20, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
I understand, the problem with that title is that an individual is obliged to tease out who's doing the accusing. Prima facie one could assume that WikiPedia was doing the accusing which is very wrong. Netscott 14:26, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
Even if the title is changed to be more NPOV the actual specific parties doing the accusing need to be included in the article and not simply link reffed due to the fact that reffed websites/pages frequently vanish. Such accusations are not to be taken lightly. Netscott 14:38, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
While I see your point, I don't think most readers will assume that Wikipedia is necessarily the subject of any unattributed verb. For example, if we have a page titled "People named George", surely readers will not assume Wikipedia took over the role of naming them.
Anyway, what's your suggestion for renaming it? Do you prefer KI's "Charities with ties to terrorism"? It avoids the verb ... :-) GRuban 15:20, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
Netscott, I see your suggestion that the individual reader not be obliged with determining who is doing the accusing. I would be interested in how you reconcile this suggestion with the policy of NPOV.
Yes, links do expire. And when we see that they have, we look for mirrors. Opinions seem to differ as to what to do if no mirrors can be found. Some wikipedia contributors remove all 404 links they come across, without looking for mirrors. Some wikipedia contributors look for mirrors first, then remove them. Some wikipedia contributors leave 404 links on the theory that the title and name of publication still allows the determined researcher to look up the paper version. Personally, I have found that I am able to find mirrors when others have failed.
IMO the individual charities named is the appropriate place for the details of the accusation. Some contributors to the Jamat al Tabligh article don't like having their article repeating the accusations. I think there objections are misplaced, so long as the paragraph(s) that deal with the accusation is NPOV.
These accusations are undoubtedly unpleasant for any innocent people who work for, volunteer for, or donate to those charities. But the accusations are out there, and should not be ignored.
Some might argue that the accusations should not be repeated, since they seem incredible. Nevertheless individuals remain in detention at Guantanamo largely or entirely because they were tied to these charities. Those who find the accusations hard to believe can't say so in the article space. That would show bias. If we find credible, verifiable, external sources that comment on the credibility of accusations, summaries of those criticisms would belong in the article space. I have my eyes peeled for them. Feel free to keep your eyes peeled too.
Who made these accusations? Ultimately, all of these charities are accused by some branch of the U.S. intelligence establishment. There may very well be charities accused of ties to terrorism by other bodies. I haven't come across any. But, if I were, I would put them here. If we were still in the Cold War maybe the USSR would be accusing some charities of ties to terrorism.
Since you think the article's title is POV I will look forward to your suggestions of alternate titles. -- Geo Swan 15:53, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
Geoswan, thank you for taking the time to give me such an in depth response. I'm working out in my mind a title that would be the right size but a bit more NPOV. I plan to have a response in the next day or two. Netscott 23:27, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] New Title

Ok, in discussing the title change with User:Freakofnurture in IRC today he mentioned how the former title of List of cults was altered to List of groups referred to as cults and that made sense to me. So I propose a title change to:
Charities referred to in connection with terrorism
Or something in that spirit, I think such a title is about as NPOV as one could get. Comments? Netscott 15:31, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

I am not sure why this is better in terms of the objections raised above - we still aren't specifying who is doing the referring, right? On the other hand, it is clearly worse in terms of specificity, since the sources in our references are pretty clearly "accusing", not just "referring". So we lose conciseness and accuracy while gaining ... what, exactly? GRuban 15:51, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
The word "Accused" is much like "alleged" and "alleged" is a Wikipedia word to avoid. A similar example would be the September 11, 2001 attacks which were originally called September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks. At first I thought the word "terrorist" should be in the title of that article but when I did some research I discovered that professional ecyclopedias don't use that word in their titles. Netscott 16:00, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
And "referred to" is less like "alleged" because it doesn't begin with "a"? :-)
See, that guideline you cite specifically says: "These words can imply doubt, and smear a viewpoint, because they often lack a verifiable source or exact details." I am afraid I don't see why "referred to" is any better than "accused" in that regard.
In fact, I think "accused" is better than "referred to", specifically because it's a term with a more definite meaning, that more clearly describes the attitude of the sources in respect to the charities.
Now I'm all for changing the article title to something better, but I just don't see why this is better, and not worse. GRuban 16:35, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
Well of course these charities are clearly accused of ties to terrorism but just like how Encarta and Britannica and other professional level encyclopedias don't use the 'active' word in their titles, they do use them in the subject matter. The logic for this is that the "at first site" neutrality of those encyclopedias' articles are maintained. Like I mentioned earlier the word "accused" can tend to make a reader at first site assume that Wikipedia is the one doing the accusing. By using the word "referred" Wikipedia neutralizes the title and distances itself from the misperception of being the accuser. Why do you think the editors for the List of cults changed the title as they did? Netscott 16:45, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Although it's longer, it's definitely a more neutral title. Move per above. — Apr. 10, '06 [17:01] <freakofnurxture|talk>

OK, I think I understand the point now. I admit, I still don't agree with it -- I think the title should even be "Charities accused of supporting terrorism", which I think is the most accurate title for the content -- but if there's a majority who sees it the other way, I'll accept being outvoted. Have we started on a straw poll? -- GRuban 17:06, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
I'll set one up... give me a sec. Netscott 17:08, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
Please add your opinion above. Thanks, Netscott 17:20, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Clarification?

The "ties" column doesn't make sense to me. Global Relief Foundation supports terrorism because their Bosnian offices were shut down on US request? Another: "Sent unauthorized funds to Saddam's Iraq"? What does that mean? Most of these aren't "ties to terrorism". Anyway, I think my main point is: The accusations should be explained, or they should be removed from the list. Mrtea (talk) 23:17, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

What about two categories: unproven accusations and proven accusations?--Xorox 08:47, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
I agree with Mrtea's main point, however every entry seems linked to a reference. I'm not sure what "unproven/proven" means in this context. Meaning proven to the satisfaction of a court? Even that could be debatable; I'm pretty sure Iran's courts would make decisions that Israel wouldn't be too happy with, and vice versa. Let's just describe who is making the accusation, and what it is, and leave it at that. GRuban 13:19, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Proven in a court of law?

We know some of the details of some of the evidence linking some of the charities to Islamic fighters because it came out in court. When it came out in court though, it came out incidentally, when individuals who worked for or volunteered for those charities were charged. Does evidence to back up a charge against an individual -prove- that the organization was tied to Islamic fighters?
Personally, I don't think so.
I don't believe any of the organizations has had a trial of its own. If that is so, then none of the organizations have been proven to be tied to terrorism. -- Geo Swan 18:59, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Non-judicial proof?

Is it possible that the intelligence officials have conducted some kind of private, secret, non-judicial review of some of these charities? It would certainly have made sense for them to have done so. The Roman Catholic Church used to have a kind of trial of every candidate for sainthood. That is where the term devil's advocate came from. A priest was delegated to make the best case he could that the candidate wasn't a saint, and to make his best effort to challenge all the evidence that a candidate was a saint. We can't know for sure whether US intelligence officials took this step for these charities. If we had access to the conclusions of this kind of responsible, professional, methodical review, I'd agree to call those conclusions proven. But we don't, because if they did them -- well, they are secret. -- Geo Swan 18:59, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The role of our personal opinions on the strength of the allegations?

What role should our personal opinions on the strength of the allegations play in what we write about them, whether we list new charities, or remove ones that have already been placed? Well, the policy of WP:NPOV plays a big role here. We are supposed to set our personal opinions aside, and write from a neutral point of view.
When I am writing on a controversial topic I consider my efforts to adopt an NPOV tone a success if a casual reader can't guess at my personal opinions. -- Geo Swan 18:59, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rafil Dhafir and Help the Needy

I'd call the links of some of these charities to Islamic fighters "strong". I'll agree with User:Mrtea, and Rafil Dhafir's defense attorneys, that the evidence linking Dhafir to terrorism sounds weak. Dhafir's attorneys objected to a "sentencing memorandum" -- whatever that is -- that linked Dhafir and Help the Needy to terrorism. They said that the prosecutors didn't lay any terrorism charges against Dhafir because they knew they didn't have any evidence against him, so he wasn't fair for the sentencing memorandum to state or imply he was tied to terrorism.
But that is my personal opinion.
I've been following the GWOT -- the Global War on Terror -- closely, in particular, I have been following the treatment of detainees in the GWOT. I think the GWOT is important. I think full coverage of the full extent and implications of the GWOT requires accurate coverage of the accusations against these charities.
It seems to me that charities whose link to terrorism are tenuous or lack credibility are being treated as seriously as those who intelligence officials know serve as a conduit to Islamic fighters because they still have the paperwork from when they used them as a conduit to use those fighters against the Soviets. My personal opinion is that this is dishonest of the Bush administration. They are scrambling for cases that will justify the steps they have taken to abridge the rights of US citizens, US resident aliens, illegal aliens, and captives in the GWOT. They claimed that these measures allowed them to foil a dozen terrorist plots in North America.
It strikes me as likely that Ashcroft counted arresting Dhafir as among those success stories. It would be wrong for me to state these opinions in the main article space. It would show just as much of a POV bias as User:KI's renaming last week of this article to Charities with ties to terrorism. That renaming showed bias because it assumed something that has yet to be proven -- that the charities are, in fact tied to terrorism. -- Geo Swan 18:59, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
[1] doesn't seem to suggest that anyone but "prosecutors again offered information alleging possible ties to terrorist organizations in arguing that Dhafir was a national security risk". Further, the Jury apparently only said:
A jury found Dhafir guilty of misusing $2 million that donors gave to his unlicensed charity, Help the Needy, and spending $544,000 for his own purposes.
The jury said Dhafir - an Iraqi-born oncologist who practiced in Rome, N.Y. - also defrauded Medicare out of $316,000 by billing for treatments as if he'd been in his office, when, in fact, he was out of state or overseas. Additionally, Dhafir was found guilty of evading $400,000 in federal income tax payments by writing off the illegal charity donations.
Given that, did a U.S. jury really accuse him or the charity with which he was associated of terrorism? Nysin 13:15, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
Jury? You mean a grand jury? Attorney General John Ashcroft publicly tied him to terrorism.
We don't have grand juries in most of the rest of the world. Normally prosecutors lay the charges. I am unclear on when a US prosecutor can lay charges without reference to a grand jury, and when a gj is required.
Cheers! -- Geo Swan 13:59, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Where should we detail the accusations?

Where is the best place for detailing the accusations, and the public rebutals, if any, of those accusations?
I started this article, and the articles about both Help the Needy and Rafil Dhafur. It seemed to me that the best place to summarize the allegations against Dhafir, and the response by his defense, was in Dhafir's article.
I am completely open to discussing other locations. Initially I thought the appropriate place to detail the accusations was in the individual articles about each charity.
If I understand Mrtea correctly, he thinks that the details of the accusations belong here. I don't see this as workable, because this list could easily grow to include one hundred or more charities. Putting the details here would, IMO, make it too hard to read.
I've mentioned my experience with the other contributors to the Jamat al Tabligh article. There is resistance to putting this material there, on grounds of credibility. There are recent reports, for instance, that 19 year old Murat Kurnaz ended up being captured, in part, because he stayed briefly in a Jamat al Tabligh sponsored guest-house. Some contributors to that article want to remove the allegations, because, in their personal opinion, they aren't credible. Some contributors to that article want to respond, personally, to those allegations, because they consider them weak. I am sympathetic to their feelings. But that is not the way the wikipedia is supposed to work. No matter how incredible the claim of an individual, organization or government is, we can't personally rebut it. That would violate the no original research policy. If a claim is that lacking in credibility then there may very well be a credible, verifiable external source that rebuts the claim. And, if we can't find an external source that rebuts the claim? In that case I think we lay out the claim, and the evidence, if any, that backs it up, and rely on the intelligence of the reader to decide for themselves whether the claim is credible. We can, of course, keep our eyes peeled for new external commentaries.
But there should probably be one place, where the most detailed summary of the accusations is placed, with other articles referring readers there with something like {{main | [[Accusations against Jamat al Tabligh of ties to terrorism]]}} -- Geo Swan 18:59, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Where should the accusers be named

All of the accusations here ultimately came from US officials. The article doesn't currently state this. Someone suggested each entry should say who, ultimately, the accusation could be traced to.
I have suggested we take the feelings of supporters of Jamat al Tabligh into account, even if a strict reading of the procedures says that doing so in unnecessary. If we can save pointless cycles of revisions back and forth by starting a separate article to summarize the accusations against Jamat, and that spares us all the cylces of revisions, we should do so. Similarly, if refraining from being pointed about the source of the accusations saves us from pointless cycles of revisions from supporters of America who feel the same kind of distress the Jamat supporters felt, why not save that hassle? -- Geo Swan 18:59, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The charities removed from the list two months ago

Mrtea, you sent me a heads-up, two months ago, repeating your concern about the amount of proof against the charities. I wasn't paying enough attention, and I missed a set of changes you made, where you removed: Maktab-ul-Khedamat, Ittehad-e-Islami, Hizb-e-Islami, Afghan Support Committee, Al Kifah Refugee Center. I thought providing a link to an article or other documeent that included the accusation a charity was sufficient. I've started some articles. But I don't want to be proprietorial about them. And doing so would be a violation of the WP:OWN policy. The wikipedia is a work in progress. Red-links aren't something to be feared or avoided. They represent an opportunity for other contributors to join in. -- Geo Swan 18:59, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Scope and title

The current article would be more accurately called "Islamic Charities who have been smeared as having terrorist links mainly by US government organizations". Which is a long title. The article certainly doesn't match it current broad title. No mention of Basque or Irish groups. Certainly no mention of Abramoff's charity and it's funding of weapons[2]. No mention of false allegations [3]. - Xed 11:57, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

  • Then fix it. All that information seems quite suitable for placement here. (Unless it deserves an article to itself, in which case it should just at least get a link from here.) I'll put in the 2 you gave links to if you don't, but I know nothing about Basque or Irish groups. -- GRuban 12:57, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
    • Done. GRuban 16:18, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
      • still crap - Xed 17:08, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Hi i'll have a look for any info on charities who have been linked with terrorism in the northern ireland troubles to see if this can stop being an islam only page (NORAID anyone?).Hypnosadist 13:37, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The terrorism sidebar significantly reduces the table's readability

IMO the terrorism sidebar significantly reduces the table's readability. Does it really add anything to the article to compensate for the reduction in readability? -- Geo Swan 03:50, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Have a look at this one. I've changed the table structure around a bit. Netscott 04:26, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
Yes, that looks a lot better.
Another change that I think would improve the readability and maintainability would be a change in the order of the fields, to name, country, accuser, ties. The ties field is the widest, and the field that is most likely to have bulleted points. I think tables that have entries where one or more fields may employ bulleted points are easier to manage if those are the last fields in the entry. If no one objects, I will make that change in a day or so. -- Geo Swan 06:03, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
Don't hesitate to edit the "test" one above or just edit it and incorporate it into the main article space. Netscott 16:20, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
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