Talk:Char 2C

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This is fascinating information. I have read a great deal about Estienne and the French Tanks of the First World War, but some of these details are new to me. I should like to hear from the author if he can tell me some of his sources for this article. Please contact me if you can.

James Reeve.

Manchester, England.

Most of the information is simply from Jeudy's Chars de France and Mili doc numéro 2: le Char 2 C. Of course these data are here presented under a rational interpretation, that is, without following the standard creation myth - so Estienne is neither some superhuman hero (he was in fact not closely involved in the technical development of any French tank, not even the FT-17) nor a fool (so it is assumed he was consistent and rational in his attitude towards the Char 2C). That the name Lorraine is the later one (pace Jeudy) can easily be proven by the photographic evidence in even his own book.

However, some of the details (and probably the more fascinating ones) are at best hinted at in the publications mentioned. Why this is so I will disclose in private to mr Reeve.

MWAK--217.122.44.226 11:26, 26 Jul 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Estienne, etc.

Thanks for replying. I have read Col. Ramspacher's biog of Estienne, and it is, to say the least, uncritical. There is no suggestion that the General might have been the slightest bit Machiavellian.

I have now read Jeudy's account, and, unless my French is even worse than I suspect, he seems to suggest that it was Louis Renault who gave Gen. Mouret a "consideration" in return for a contract to build the engines for the 2C. I should be very interested to hear more about this.

James Reeve.

I'm sorry I haven't been able to answer you yet - and I'm even more sorry to tell you it will take more time still :o). But I hope to inform you in a week or so.

MWAK--217.122.44.226 08:54, 11 Aug 2004 (UTC)

2.9.2004 Message received. Most intriguing. Thanks very much. JR

---

I`m interested about the B-1 bis Char de Bataille, but I havent found it even in the list of French tanks. Am I wrong with the designation, or it will be put there after the whole page is finished?

It's understandable you're interested in this vehicle; it's after all one of the most remarkable AFV's ever built! :o) Sadly, there are no articles about it on Wikipedia yet, apart from a very small German one. The lists are not supposed to reflect already written articles only (as can be seen by all those red links :o) but they are, at least in this case, not defective either: the vehicle is listed under the more including designation "Char B1", as there are three subtypes (B1 proper, B1 bis, B1 ter) that are so closely related they probably (but we'll see) won't get separate articles. When this will happen is hard to say. I myself am Dutch and I'm in the slow process of creating on the Dutch Wikipedia a full range of exhaustive articles on all French tanks (the first time ever for that language any easily accessible information has been made public about this subject). After some time I then create a smaller English version of each article. At current speed within 30 months I will cover the Char B1 also. I kept it for last because it will be the most extensive one: some 50 KB monster in Dutch, I fear (and hope). Should you not have the patience to wait that long ;o), there's plenty information to be found if you speak French, among which the most beautiful book ever written about any tank: Stéphan Bonnaud's Chars B au Combat and several websites, the best of which is http://www.chars-francais.net/. The few English books about French tanks contain many factual errors and tend to give a completely distorted view of pre-war French tank tactics and organisation. There are many common myths about the Char B1 in particular: that few had radio sets (all in principle); that the ventilation grille was a weak spot (nope); that the 75 mm gun for the horizontal plane was mounted completely rigidly in the hull (slight traverse was possible); that no AP-rounds were available for that gun (many a German tank crew learned the fatal truth of this matter); that it had inferior sights compared to German tanks (if anything, better) and even that it was the expression of some defensive attitude (in its day it was the only effective breakthrough tank and thus the offensive weapon par excellence). So if you're not versant in French you have the choice between remaining uninformed or being misinformed :>(.

--MWAK 07:23, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

As it happened my hand was forced: there now exists an article on the Char B1 :o).--MWAK 13:23, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

Thnx for the article and Thnx for the info. (applause, cheers, girls` bra-s flying your way, spectators waving, lighters are lit, we want more we want moreis heard. 8o)

Veljko Stevanovich 13. Nov. 2005 22:55 (UTC+1)

Within 27 months there will, deo volente, be more ;o). Meanwhile you might find http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=79218&highlight=char interesting or other contributions of David Lehmann on this forum. Keep in mind he can be dead wrong at times, as all of us. And then there are only so many French tanks on a given timeline...--MWAK 10:24, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Keeping a Neutral Point of View

I tried to put a more neutral tone (WP:NPOV) to this article a while back in keeping with Wikipedia policy, but someone has overwritten much of that work. It seems that there is a lot of unsupported speculation and critical point-of-view in some of the text especially about the Phases of development. Clearly this tone seems to come from the author of a source publication, but hopefully the text is not just lifted verbatim, as that would be plagiarizing. This material should be referenced preferably with footnotes and should stick a bit more to the facts, as Wikipedia is not the proper forum for expressing opinions. I've nominated this for a NPOV review to make sure that I'm not misperceiving the situation. Kevin Murray 04:16, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, have you read Mili doc numéro 2: le Char 2 C? Or could you give any modern sources contradicting the text? I haven't overwritten much of your work, mostly changes that were clearly factually incorrect, such as the claim "Petain supported the FCM 1A" or that "Joffre wanted pontoons" (I assume the latter was an inadvertent error on your part :o), and many reductions in factual information given, such as the fact that Pétain was High Commander. And now again you delete the fact that the FT-17 was a (revolutionary) light tank. I understand that someone without proper knowledge of the subject might believe "revolutionary" was an unsupported value judgment instead of simply reflecting informed consensus, but why omit that it was light? I agree that the tone of the article was rather flippant, but then a slight ironic detachment from the subject might be quite appropriate, given the circumstances. It would be highly deceptive to give the reader the utterly false impression the course of events had been straightforward, proper and rational, wheras the real history of the Char 2C was one of personal gain, political strife and stark dissimulation. One could say the tone is simply that of present French writers on the subject of French tank development: one naturally becomes ironic when faced with events ;o). Nevertheless, I'd better rewrite and expand the whole... And give those references.--MWAK 07:33, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your understanding. I agree that I'm not an expert in this field, but we seem to share the concern of the "tone" problem. The information is overall good, but I think you see my point as I see yours. These are some tough paragraphs to write with concise clarity. Kevin Murray 08:46, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

I'll make an effort. :o) This article is merely a shortened translation of one I did for the Dutch wiki and there's plenty of background information available to improve the narrative.--MWAK 10:34, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

MWAK expanded on my edits and has produced a much more neutral tone while restoring the historical accuracy, and much better readability. I think that my critisism of the NPOV is no longer warranted, so I removed the tag. This is really a facinating saga. Kevin Murray 19:37, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

And there's more to come after Christmas! I was a bit lazy when I first created the article...--MWAK 08:35, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Biggest tank?

In what sense? Dimensions? The Tiger was still heavier though.

-G

Obviously in regard of its dimensions. That is what "big" means, after all. The Tiger II was about the same weight. It's difficult to make comparisons. E.g. over the years the accumulated paint layers alone probably brought the Char 2Cs above the 70 metric ton limit. Certainly the uparmoured Lorraine was heavier than any Tiger II.--MWAK 09:15, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

I think this needs a clearer mention of the fact that the Panzer VIII Maus was over 2.5x the mass, although it was only prototyped. Night Gyr (talk/Oy) 02:39, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

OK. When I come to it :o).--MWAK 10:47, 25 January 2007 (UTC)