Talk:Channel Tunnel Rail Link

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[edit] Metric v. Imperial measurements

An Imperial measurements advocate has converted all the metric distance and speed measurements to miles and yards etc (albeit retaining the metric conversion in brackets). I propose changing these back, on the grounds that Imperial measurements have not been taught in British schools for decades and that in any case this rail link is an extension of a foreign network (hence the rounded metric units). Rollo 19:18, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

er ... no. This is a *british* railway link, it is *not* an "extension of a foreign network", and what is taught in our schools is irrelevant to WP readers. In general, all articles should contain imperial *and* metric alternatives. --Vamp:Willow 20:38, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

I agree with Rollo, particularly as the CTRL website itself [1] uses metric units almost exclusively, with miles in brackets for just a few distance measurements. Try asking a tunnelling engineer how many "long tons" his TBM weighs! I also note the unhelpful way in which User:80.255 described his significant changes with an edit summary of "mi -> mile" and marked his edit as minor. However, at least he retained the metric units, so the article is usable in its present form. --Heron 20:52, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

I agree with VampWillow, and think that the imperial units should be retained, as many people are more familiar with these.--John 11:38, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

The UK has been metric for along time, and the CTRL has been built entirely to metric specifications (eg. 1435mm gauge, rather than 4ft 8½ in). I'm happy for the imperial conversion to be shown in (brackets), but the imperial is an approximation of the true and therefore should not be the primary figure stated. Sladen 23:21, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

As one of the people responsible for the introduction of Imperial units into this article I feel I should defend them! As has already been pointed out, this is an article about a British railway, and to be consistent with other British railway articles (and British articles in general!) it should have Imperial units. Railways in this country have mileposts with 440 yd fractions on them; bridges and tunnels are located in miles and chains and so on. Keep Imperial units. Owain 12:25, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

The CTRL is marked with kilometre-posts, and the signalling system operates solely in kilometres per hour. It is a British railway, but it is a British railway which operates exclusively metrically. Hence I vote metric. (And it's probably more correct to say it's an extension of the European network, and the EU operates in metric). Willkm 21:56, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

If ones looks out of a train on a classic British railway it is likely that you will spot the diamond-shaped black and white signs, showing metric speed-limits, for example, showing 41. Sladen 23:21, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

So that's 3 for Imperial, 2 for metric. So far, I am outvoted. I take Owain's point about the possible specificity of British railways, although the article makes clear that in engineering terms the CTRL is indeed an extension of a foreign network. And it is not true that what is taught in our schools (in this case since the 1970s) is "irrelevant". I am British, and I don't talk in yards and inches, let alone in "long tons", whatever they are. Rollo 18:38, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

well, i personally switch from metric to imperial without thought. i live in the UK and i will say something like he is 5 ft 11. or how far is a certain town i will usually use miles. especially with long distance i will say miles, remember the UK uses miles on its roads (and long may it do so). however if someone says how high is my house, i may say about 12-13 metres. or just as common 40 ft. i think we should have both measurements. as for school, we r still taught what imperial units r but for simplicity in science etc we use metric. Pratj 23:56, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

well, if we r voting i prefer imperial, i can picture that in my head better than in metric. ie if someone says 200kmh i subconsciously translate it into mph anyway. i think as this is english speaking wikipedia we should use imperial as afterall, i thinjk more ppl in the english speaking world use imperial.Pratj 15:18, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

I wasn't aware we was having a vote. surely someone has a wikipedia policy on this matter (appeal to higher powers here somewhere). IMHO while yes is is a British railway which is dominated in chines (IIRC - ie imperial, and thus metric in brackets), the CTRL is metric. Now the real toughie is should the article be in metric or imperial, I'm *weakly* going for metric (with imperial in brackets) because it was built in metric and I'm young (ish - ie tough in metric), although at the end of the day its not the end of the world FFS!!!! Pickle 06:55, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

if the sources of this information use metric then that is what should be used as the form of measurement in the article. it can then be converted to imperial in brackets. actually im surprised people care that much as long as both are shown. it doesnt really matter does it? Mad onion 10:38, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

YOu'ld be suprised - some people think its a vast european conspiracy to defraud them, others its just common snese - take it all witha pinch of salt - LOL Pickle 16:47, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

This is beyond ridiculous. Engineers in this country have used metric exclusively for decades, the units were obviously originally in metric and the UK is a metric country by law. Not only that the use of 'long tons' is absurd, I don't think anyone under the age of 30 would understand what one was. If we really have to have imperial, then put it brackets, though I'd strongly be in favour of metric only. So I will revert to my metric only version.

I argee. British Engineers use metric, it's built metric standard, just use metric. Tancred 16:57, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

FFS everyone, is there not some policy somewhere that we should be citing and following ??? Otherwise we'll being going round in circles - request for arbitration???

Pickle 14:45, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Minor Bits

Needs a grammar check, quite a few mistakes. Also, why has the Eurostar terminus been changed to St. Pancras? Why not just build the high-speed line to Waterloo? Not clear from this article. Badgerpatrol 01:51, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

IIRC

a) Thames gateway (ie Stratford and ebbsfleet) needed redevelopment, south London doesn't,

b) st pancras is the prettiest station in London (can think of the source but thats what everyone says, it does look good)

c) could be because waterloo is perceived as isolated (while king cross / st pancrass isn't), waterloo is already suffering from massive overcrowding or even waterloo is un PC to the French Pickle 01:21, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

The caption below the photo of the model of KX/St.P is slightly wrong. Eurostar trains will use the centre platforms running the entire length of both the old arched-roof section and the flat-roofed new extension to the north. 'Normal' BR trains will then normally use the 'side' platforms in the new extension. ChrisRed 12:52, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] loading-gauge

It would be interesting to know whether the channel tunnel and CTRL will allow continental loading-gauge trains to reach London. If they could, one could scrap the nasty, poky EuroStar stock.

The Tunnel has a huge loading gauge for the shuttle (ie the arctic lorries on flatbeds), i don't know about the CTRL though - one assumes at least W10. However the stock using the CTRL also needs to go other places eg the depot at North Pole (accessed via North London and West London Lines) and use the diversion routes such as the Chatham main line which are only W8 or W9 (and all British gauges have different platform to mainland Europe despite being standard gauge .....) Pickle 19:50, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

I was told by someone who was connected to with the CTRL that the Eurostars don't run at full spedd in the UK, when using the track. This was because the track was angled in order to take freight wagons on it. If the Eurostar's were to go full speed the angle would need to be greater than it is now (on corners etc). This would be fine for the Eurostars, but freight wagons would have the load tipping all over the place and could cause spillage etc. In saying this the CTRL has never seen frieght use. Whether it will is unclear. The Singlewell freight loops are also being re-modelled. Does anyone know what for?--Screen42 13:47, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Reading about the CTRL yes there have been many freight loops put in (singlewell being one), but I've no idea what the work that they have been doing there for some time is for. the CTRL (as i understand it) is designed as a high speed passenger railway with he ability to take light freight. It is explicitly not meant to take heavy freight - the Ashford to Swanley Junction branch off the Chatham Main Line and Redhill to Ashford lines were upgraded to W9 clearance specifically for CTRL freight. Pickle 18:15, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Here's a mention from Hansard some years ago about how the CTRL should conform to the UIC "C" loading gauge: [2] (scroll to bottom of page). There's also a mention of the CTRL having a "European loading gauge" here: [3].

From memory: loading gauge C up to the beginning of the long London tunnels, then B or B+ right into the terminus. Maybe platform geometry adaptation might be needed. But have a look why the Eurostar calling points are operated like airports and contrast this with proper railway stations and you might stumble across more significant obstacles than loading gauge.Klaus with K 15:46, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

If i understand it correctly the eurostars can only use certain platforms at Ashford and ebbsfleet due to their loading gauge (something to do with height from platform). CTRL-DS stock will run the same lines but use normal platforms (again re height) - if i understand the difference in UIC (ie european) and GB loading gauges correctly, a) GB tunnels (and other infrastructure above the train) is very curved (cutting the corners offs) and b) GB platforms stick out a long way, so we may use standard gauge between the rails but the width at the bottom of a european rail vehicle would hit GB platforms as they stick out) - hope that helps Pickle 20:03, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Opening dates

Isn't the December date for the power switch on? I am pretty sure this is the case, then testing can commence.

[edit] New name

I suggest that the article be renamed High Speed 1, as LCR have just given the project that very name with (apparently) exactly 1 year to go before completion. Edvid 11:11, 14th November 2006 (UTC)

Disagree...move it back. What LCR calls it isn't necessarily 'the right thing'. It's called CTRL in all relevant legislation as well. --jrleighton 07:55, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Comment Wikipedia seems to prefer calling railway things what companies call them. For example, we have 'one' rather than London Eastern Railway Ltd.

Agree...move back to CTRL. "High Speed 1" has so far been used in one press release by LCR. A quick look out of the train window at the control signs on entering/leaving the CTRL will quickly remind one that the railway is the CTRL, through and through. Perhaps if the use of "HS1" becomes great than "CTRL" this article might be suitable for a rebrand, but until that point I feel that the name should describe the product, rather than any particular company "brandname" for the railway. Sladen 23:26, 19 November 2006 (UTC) So that's a 'disagree' with moving it to HS1, isn't it? -- Solipsist 15:48, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Actually, Wikipedia's naming policy is to have articles at their most common name. In this case that sounds like it is still 'CTRL'. The article can be moved to 'HS1' as and when that becomes the more common term. -- Solipsist 15:48, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

I would agree with that - when it's open, according to LCR, HS1 will be the most common name (other than to Eurostar drivers, perhaps) being known as this on maps, road signs etc. It can be moved then. Willkm 17:11, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

"This may contain forward-looking statements." :-) Shall we instead see what happens in the future? LCR have been known to put out press-releases to "test the water". Previously LCR announced that St. Pancras would be named London International or given a completely new name; but it looks like that particular rebranding is unlikely to happen... Sladen 18:26, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] WP Trail

While its a good summary that replaces the old table well, there is a lot more scope with the features of this template. (A job for the future!) Pickle 19:38, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

see WP:TRAIL Pickle 20:23, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

One point though with the diagram - the CTRL between the tunnel and Ashford is a different line (25kV High Speed Line) to the Kent Main Line (3rd rail electrified). --Stewart 23:05, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

I big overhaul of the table on this page is on the cards from me as it is quite inaccurate at the moment (but a good start) Pickle 23:13, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] GA Article

[edit] Good Article Nomination

Good evening (GMT time); I have reviewed this article on 11:55, Friday April 6, 2007 (UTC) in accordance with the Good Article (GA) criteria. There are seven main criteria that the article must comply with to pass:

Well-written: Pass
Factually accurate: Pass
Broad: Pass
Neutrally written: Pass
Stable: Pass
Well-referenced: Pass
Images: Pass

I have concluded that, in my opinion, the article has passed all categories and I therefore award it GA status. Congratulations to the lead editors, and keep up the excellent work!

Kindest regards,
anthonycfc ^[talk] 18:31, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Low Importance?

Surely one of the biggest civil engineering projects that Kent and maybe the UK has seen for years ranks as high importance? It slices Kent in half, its a key attribute for the Olympic games in 2012 and is a major transport link for Europe deserves to be of high importance. Comments please.--Screen42 16:05, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Fair cop guv, i've been mass tagging a lot of "low" articles and in prespective it is more important. however i haven't put high, as some really simple stuff (eg Kent and most of the major towns) have yet to be sufficiently tackled Pickle 18:51, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

OK thanks. What ranks as high? Just curious.--Screen42 19:15, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

We for WP:Kent we've put Kent and the big towns/city's as high, but its a new WikiProject only recently started. WikiProject trains is huge on the other hand and has a criteria - see Wikipedia:WikiProject Trains/Assessment - where details are given. IMHO the CTRL article isn't "vital to understanding the history or technology of rail transport". But I'm all for debate so if you think it is we can change it to high... Pickle 19:31, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

The train one sounds interesting ! Tell me more plz--Screen42 21:52, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Have a look at it - Wikipedia:WikiProject Trains/Assessment#Importance assessment and Wikipedia:WikiProject Trains/Assessment#Importance scale - i think that does a better job than anyhting i can say. Pickle 22:33, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Singlewell freight Loops

Maybe the diagram should have these on?Screen42 14:44, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

I was going to add these, but I can't find the detailed Quail track diagram with all the details on, I don't know what a good way to represent them is. Maybe a small/freight station symbol and just a comment rather than showing three lines of track. Sladen 18:05, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

They are building something else there as well. Two new buildings have appeared. Someone told me that they form some sort of base for the Eurostar operations.--Screen42 19:06, 27 March 2007 (UTC)--Screen42 19:06, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

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