Talk:Chalkidiki

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It has been proposed below that Chalkidiki be renamed and moved to Chalcidice.

The proposed move should have been noted at Wikipedia:Requested moves.
Discussion to support or oppose the move should be on this talk page, usually under the heading "Requested move". If, after a few days, a clear consensus for the page move is reached, please move the article and remove this notice, or request further assistance.

Maintenance Use Only: {{subst:WP:RM|Chalkidiki|Chalcidice|}}


This article is within the scope of the WikiProject Greece; If you would like to join us, please visit the project page; if you have any questions, please consult the FAQ.
Start This article has been rated as Start-Class on the quality scale (If you rated the article please give a short summary at comments to explain the ratings and/or to identify the strengths and weaknesses.)

Contents

[edit] Proposed move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.


This article is currently at Chalcidice, which is by far the least common of the three renderings in use; much more common are Halkidiki and Chalkidiki. I would propose moving to Halkidiki, but Chalkidiki would also be an improvement. A few relevant bits of information about each rendering, in order of my preference:

  • Halkidiki
    • Used by BBC News, The Guardian, Athens News Agency, and The Financial Times among others; 737 hits in Google News Archive
    • Used officially by the prefectural government
    • 588,000 English-language non-Wikipedia Google hits
  • Chalkidiki
    • Used by The Independent and Washington Post among others; 282 hits in Google News Archive
    • 358,000 English-language non-Wikipedia Google hits
  • Chalcidice
    • Not used by any major news organizations; 117 hits in Google News Archives, almost all from pre-WW2 sources or Britannica
    • 32,100 English-language non-Wikipedia Google hits

So clearly Chalkidiki and Halkidiki have much more use, both colloquially and in the mainstream media; Chalcidice seems to only be used in the modern era by classicists, when discussing ancient Greece, and never to refer to the modern prefecture. I would prefer Halkidiki, because it's used more often and is more official, but either would be better than Chalcidice. --Delirium 19:27, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

As there've been no objections for several weeks, I went ahead and made the move. --Delirium 00:46, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
There have been no objections because you haven't announced it on WP:RM! I don't have Chalcidice on my watchlist, so I didn't notice it. I strongly recommend to keep it at Chalcidice (cfr. Britannica and indeed common use among classicists), or at least have a discussion about it. For the time being, I'll move it back. Markussep 19:57, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
And I, as noted above, strongly recommend to keep it at Halkidiki, which is its official English name and by far the most widely used English name (cf. most major news organizations, the Greek government, and Google searches). Chalcidice is almost never used in the post-World-War-II era to refer to either the peninsula or the Periphery. --Delirium 20:07, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
I'll announce a move request back to Chalcidice at WP:RM then. In the meantime, please don't move anything else to "X, Halkidiki". Markussep 20:18, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
I vote to keep as it is now (i.e. Halkidiki) for the reasons stated by Delirium. If a classicist wants to look it up, they can find the redirect. Please note Santorini instead of Thera. --Kimontalk 20:23, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move. March

Halkidiki → Chalcidice — Before today, the article was at Chalcidice, which is the classical name for the area. Besides, using the "h" for transliteration of "χ" is not recommended by Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Greek). Markussep 20:27, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Survey

Add  # '''Support'''  or  # '''Oppose'''  on a new line in the appropriate section followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion using ~~~~. Please remember that this survey is not a vote, and please provide an explanation for your recommendation.

[edit] Survey - in support of the move

  1. Support Agree with Markussep on this one. Gryffindor 19:53, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
  2. Support WP:UE. If we had an article on the history of the peninsula in ancient times, it might be reasonable to disambiguate them by spelling, but we don't. The English is, and always has been, Chalcidice. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:48, 28 March 2007 (UTC) Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:45, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Survey - in opposition to the move

  1. Oppose - As stated by Delirium above, Halkidiki or Chalkidiki is the modern way of referring to this area. The classical name must be acknowledged and mentioned in the article but, it has been in disuse for a very long period of time. There is precedent for this in the case of Santorini and Thera. --Kimontalk 20:31, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion

Add any additional comments:

I suppose we have to find out what is the most common name in English. The outcome of that could also be Chalkidiki (see googlefight, I don't suggest letting googlefight decide though). Markussep 20:32, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

I would not be opposed to this. --Kimontalk 20:36, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
I don't suggest googlefight should decide either but, the results are indeed interesting: Halkidiki v. Chalcidice :) (ps. cool site, thanks!) --Kimontalk
It looks like even the National Tourism Organization of Greece can decide between Chalkidiki and Halkidiki: search on the site --Kimontalk 20:52, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
I was initially going to suggest Chalkidiki based on the google/googlefight results, but it turns out that a lot of those hits are from German-language sites, since Chalkidiki is a very common transliteration into German. In English Halkidiki seems to have about a 2:1 edge, or 3:1 among news organizations. I do agree that the usage isn't hugely dominant, though, and both Halkidiki and Chalkidiki are in frequent modern use. --Delirium 21:18, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
The Halkidiki vs Chalkidiki thing reminds me of Hanukkah vs Chanukah; thanks to the fact that Anglos outside Scotland can't produce a decent voiceless velar fricative, except perhaps when they go "Yecch!" --SigPig |SEND - OVER 05:16, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Delirium, at least in scientific articles I still see a lot of "Chalcidice" in the past 50 years, so it's not obsolete. But I admit that Chalkidiki and Halkidiki are more used (except in books, that's strange!). When searching the .org domain (see below), I didn't see German language hits for Chalkidiki, I suppose googlefight includes all domains and languages. About "ch" vs. "h" for "χ", see Romanization of Greek and the links in that article. The UN/ELOT system we chose as naming convention has "ch". Hence article titles like Chios, Acharnes, Chania. If I have to choose between Halkidiki and Chalkidiki, I choose Chalkidiki. Markussep 08:10, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
So what shall we do? Change this move request to a three-way straw poll Halkidiki/Chalkidiki/Chalcidice? Markussep 11:31, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
I think it's still a two-way poll but, between Halkidiki and Chalkidiki. --Kimontalk 12:15, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
I think this is basically a question of how to transliterate a modern Greek name, which means that we should follow the convention at WP:GREEK and move to Chalkidiki. "Chalcidice" is popular in the following Google results because many classicists use that spelling when writing about ancient history--but this article is about the modern prefecture, so it comes down to Halkidiki and Chalkidiki. --Akhilleus (talk) 14:32, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] English use

Google scholar (articles from the period 1957-2007):

Google news archive (articles from the period 1957-2007):

Google books (from the period 1957-2007):

Encyclopedias:

Google English language, only .org, -wikipedia:

Markussep 20:49, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The article makes little mention of the area in Classical times, and it seems unlikely that we would have an article about it based solely on its renown in antiquity. There therefore seems to be little reason to maintain the classical "Chalcidice" spelling. Spellings ending in -cidice are much less commonly used than endings in -kidiki, and of the available transliterations for the first letter, "Ch" is preferred by WP:GREEK. This article has been renamed from Halkidiki to Chalkidiki as the result of a move request. This may have implications for other articles, such as Agios Nikolaos, Chalcidice, Pallene, Chalcidice, Pallini, Chalcidice, Panagia, Chalcidice and list of settlements in the Chalcidice prefecture. --Stemonitis 12:44, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

This closure defies both Wikipedia policy on names, and the discussion above. (Upon consideration, it is possible that Markussep, who did not explicitly vote for his own proposal, was not counted; if so, this is understandable carelessness.) I have moved to Chalkidice, as a compromise positon. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:33, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
You should not have moved the page unilaterally. This discussion was closed by a Wikipedia admin. Also, please be aware that this was not a vote! --Kimontalk 22:04, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
I definitely prefer Chalkidiki over an artificial name like Chalkidice! I didn't cast a vote for my own proposal because I realised that English usage wasn't as strong for Chalcidice as I thought. Markussep 22:10, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
"Chalkidice" is totally foreign to any English usage ever. I don't believe it is possible to compromise between two spellings by switching between them halfway through the word. I would prefer Chalcidice (fully English) for the English Wikipedia, but I'd much much rather see a purely Greek and not-so-English (but somewhat established) spelling than this coinage, which I'm not sure doesn't run afoul of WP:NEO. Wareh 23:50, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
Scholar.google.com does show some usage - it's Browning's choice; but Chalcidice is of course more common. If it does not mollify people, I will support Chalcidice. Halkidiki is Greek nationalism, and flatly unacceptable and unEnglish. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:12, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
How exactly is a spelling different from what you like nationalism? The spelling that was AGREED to is clearly acceptable to all but you. --Kimontalk 00:24, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
Would you prefer "terminological inexactitude?" There are two voices above that oppose this name. Only you supported it. Stremonitis had no business closing this poll as he did, contrary to the votes and the evidence. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:07, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
IMO this pov-title tag is not necessary, I don't see this as a nationalist POV issue, but as a Leghorn/Livorno or Brunswick/Braunschweig discussion (older vs. modern/local name). Proper classic transliteration would be "Chalkidikē" or something like that, Chalcidice is the Latinised form (which would be used if it were mainly about a place or person in antiquity, see WP:GREEK), Chalkidiki is the modern form (using the WP:GREEK rules). I see only two hits for Chalkidice in google scholar after 1957, actually Chalkidike gets 175 results. Stemonitis probably considered the outcome of the discussion above, which was clearly leaning towards Chalkidiki. Markussep 08:05, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

As I noted above, I think Chalkidiki is fine. Even if Chalkidice is found in English, this spelling transliterates κ in two different ways in the same word, which seems undesirable to me. And while Chalcidice is the spelling favored by classicists, both Chalkidiki and Halkidiki are regularly found in English--see e.g. this New York Times article and this Washington Post article. The Google searches above suggest that (outside of classical scholarship) Chalkidiki and Halkidiki are more common than Chalcidice. Actually, the Google news search suggests that Halkidiki is the most common spelling in English-language news media, but I don't know how comprehensive Google news is. 00:38, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Bizarre name

02-April-2007: EARTH to FREAKOPEDIA: Yes, the current name "Chalkidice" is bizarre. I have sequenced the peculiar names for "Chalkidiki" noting "almost never Chalkidice" to regain some dignity in the bizarre situation: "To err is human, to really foul things up requires a committee." Of course, the article should some day be filed correctly to a common name, but at least noting the rarity of a name regains some sense of respect for Wikipedia. Such committee-mangled decisions have happened for centuries, so it's all okay, long-term, and if we laugh together, then it won't be like everyone else is laughing at Wikipedia. The Greek articles are beginning to expand well, and there are a lot of impressive results to offset the temporary glitches. Keep on writing.... -Wikid77 04:26, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Move proposals for other pages

For whoever is interested, I've posted move proposals for List of settlements in the Chalcidice prefecture and for Category:Chalcidice as a result of the above discussion. --Kimontalk 13:33, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move

Move to Chalcidice. Relisting for consensus. Last time was two supports and one oppose. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:32, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Survey

Add "* Support" or "* Oppose" or other opinion in the appropriate section followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~

  • Strong Support as nom. The Britannica article cited above is fairly clear evidence, as are the 500 hits at Scholar.google.com; it is true that Chalkidiki is occasionally used by those who write Lesvos and Evia for Lesbos and Euboea; but that doesn't make any of them English. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:38, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
  • Strong oppose. "Chalcidice" is an old spelling almost never used in modern contexts, and by far a minority usage in English-language publications. See above for evidence that no major current English-language news organizations use "Chalcidice", instead preferring one of "Halkidiki" or "Chalkidiki". Septentrionalis's claim that the most common English spellings are only used "occasionally" is flatly wrong. --Delirium 22:42, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
    • 166 of those 500 hits for Chalcidice are since 2002. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:55, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
      • And in that same time period Halkidiki has 503 hits (over 3x as many), and Chalkidiki 410 (over 2x as many). So by your own measure, Chalcidice is only the third-most-common spelling. Therefore I prefer one of the two most common English spellings, as per our common-names policy. --Delirium 01:56, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
  • Support per Septentrionalis.--Domitius 22:43, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
  • Support per Septentrionalis; and Delirium, you are gently asked to use in future for such moves that are known being controversial WP:RM.--Aldux 23:06, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
  • Support per nom. Proteus (Talk) 23:12, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
  • OPPOSE - What is Chalcidice? That's the first time I've ever heard that name used before. Now surely I can understand the "C" infront of Halkidiki, but Chalcidice? That sounds like the Turkish translation. Even Babel Fish translator recognized Chalkidiki (and vice versa), but NOT Chalcidice. My maps of Greece spell it (C)HALKIDIKI. Chalcidice does not have the same pronounciation and sound, that (C)Halkidiki have. Hence maybe we need to look at the Greek spelling to understand. Χαλκιδική x -> CH, α -> a, λ -> l, κ->k, ι->i, δ->d, ι->i, κ->k, ή->i. CHALKIDIKI. And has anyone bothered to think that Chalcidice is the Katharevousa (old, obsolete spelling) and translation of it? And the new Demotic (current, modern) is how Chalkidiki should be translated? El Greco 23:57, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
    The Turkish name is Halkidikya according to tr:Yunanistan'ın illeri. Markussep 09:52, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
  • Oppose. We already had a WP:RM about this, it's just a section above, and it resulted in the article being at Chalkidiki. As has been pointed out already, this is a straightforward transliteration of modern Greek Χαλκιδική, following the guideline WP:GREEK. While Chalcidice is popular among classical scholars because it more accurately reflects the ancient pronunciation, even in works of classical scholarship you'll find "Khalkidike" as in R. Osborne, Greece in the Making: 1200-479BC (Routledge 1996). As also pointed out above, in English-language news media, "Chalcidice" is rare, whereas "Chalkidiki" and "Halkidiki" are common: see e.g. this New York Times article and this Washington Post article, and this search of boston.com for "halkidiki" (most of those seem to be ads), for "chalkidiki". A search of boston.com for "Chalcidice" turns up nothing. For completeness' sake someone should do a Lexis-Nexis search, but I'm pretty confident that normal usage in news sources is Chalkidiki/Halkidiki. --Akhilleus (talk) 02:11, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
  • Oppose. This title follows WP:GREEK, and I don't see any explanation as to why that reasoning is insufficient. Discussions like this are what naming conventions are supposed to resolve. Dekimasuよ! 09:42, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
  • Neutral. Both Chalcidice and Chalkidiki are commonly used in English (Chalkidiki a bit more), I don't really care which one is chosen. Markussep 09:52, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
  • Support This is the name that is most familiar to me. Gryffindor 11:45, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
  • Oppose, nomination has failed to prove that "Chalcidice" is significantly more common; Google search suggests the opposite. But whichever gets chosen, please don't again mess with "compromises" like "Chalkidice", that's not a compromise but a bastard. Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:42, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
  • Strong Oppose - We already went through this process a few days ago and settled on Chalkidiki. Looking at the previous move discussion, the arguments clearly show that Chalkidiki and Halkidiki are the two most prevalent spellings, with Chalkidiki coming on top and being consistent with WP:GREEK. Also, as per Future Perfect at Sunrise, names such as "Chalkidice" should be avoided. --Kimontalk 13:02, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
  • Support. Chalcidice is the English name of the place (Greek Chalkidiki), as Spain is the English name of the place (Spanish España). The hits at JSTOR, where Chalcidice predominates, include lots of recent scholarship. Ultimately, Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, and I'm distrustful of the bean-counting for prevalence, when I think "Chalcidice" is concentrated in the encyclopedic, historical, etc., sources. I trust it goes without saying that Chalcidice is overwhelmingly preferred by English-speaking scholars of the ancient world. (I note from experience as a Classicist that even when scholars see the printed words "Khalkidike" or "Alkibiades" in front of them, they generally say kal-SIH-di-see and al-si-BYE-uh-deez.) I'm afraid the Wikipedia guidelines don't clearly address this case. But WP:GREEK mentions the criterion "a concept that is significant in the Hellenistic period or before (i.e. would merit its own article even if the modern concept did not)," which certainly fits Chalcidice. See also WP:NCGN's first sentence: "When a widely accepted English name, in a modern context, exists for a place, we should use it." This phrase best describes Chalcidice in my opinion. (No one here is now suggesting Chalkidice, which I also oppose.) If I can make no other contribution here, I hope my word as a Classics professor will count in asserting that "almost never used in modern contexts" has zero basis in truth, in my field. Wareh 15:16, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
    • Actually, in Greek it's Χαλκιδική (if we're comparing to España)  ;-)
      Chalcidice is used in modern texts when referring to the classical period. When referring to the modern region, it is referred to as Chalkidiki (as the numerous news outlets and the sites on the modern region show). Nobody is arguing that for classicists, the region is referred to as Chalcidice but, just as the Santorini article is not named Thera, this should remain as Chalkidiki. --Kimontalk 15:51, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
Oppose. I've seen the spelling (C)halkidiki numerous times (in modern contexts) but not Chalcidice. Valentinian T / C 16:15, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
  • Oppose per Kimon and Valentinian.--Yannismarou 16:27, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion

Here's some Lexis-Nexis search results, from "Lexis-Nexis Academic Universe-News". I'm searching General News, Major papers, full text, for the last five years.

"Chalkidiki" gets 24 articles.
"Halkidiki" gets 133 articles.
"Chalcidice" gets 2 articles.

If I search General News, Magazines and journals, full text, for the last five years:

"Chalkidiki" gets 13 articles.
"Halkidiki" gets 59 articles.
"Chalcidice" gets 0 articles.

If I search Arts & Sports news, Entertainment news, full text, for the last five years:

"Chalkidiki" gets 2 results.
"Halkidiki" gets 24 results.
"Chalcidice" gets 0 results.

These results show pretty conclusively what I've already said above: in contemporary English-language media sources, "Chalcidice" is an uncommon spelling, whereas "Halkidiki" is the most common. This is unsurprising as a lot of these articles are travel pieces, and Halkidiki is the transliteration preferred by the local government.

In addition, while "Chalcidice" is unquestionably the most common spelling in classical scholarship, in recent scholarship dealing with modern Greece, I'm sure that "Halkidiki" is the most common spelling, with "Chalkidiki" as a common alternative. I quote Georgios Agelopoulos, "Life among anthropologists in Greek Macedonia," Social Anthropology, 11 (2003) 253 (n. 16): "Since there is no commonly accepted system of transliteration for the Greek alphabet, I adopt the system proposed by the Journal of Modern Greek Studies. Personal names, place names (for example, Halkidiki) and names of populations (for example, Ntopii) follow the customary English form of their transliteration." See also Hugh Poulton, Who are the Macedonians? (Indiana, 2000), p. 13: "The southern Greeks planted city-states, which so characterised their political organisation, on the Halkidiki peninsula and a few elsewhere on the Macedonian coast." --Akhilleus (talk) 16:52, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org../../../c/h/a/Talk%7EChalkidiki_4733.html"