Talk:Chaldean

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This article is about a person, place, or concept whose name is originally rendered in the Syriac script; however the article does not have that version of its name in the article's lead paragraph. Anyone who is knowledgeable enough with the original language is invited to assist in adding the Syriac script.

Archive 1 (October 2006 - January 2006)

Contents 1 For Chaldeans from Detroit 2 For Chaldeans all over the world 3 ASM, please... 4 Finally we are getting somwhere 5 CHALDEANS ARE NOT ASSYRIANS!!!! 6 Why are assyrians arguing?

[edit] For Chaldeans from Detroit

For Chaldeans born in Detroit and are researching about their identity (like most Americans like to do), please note the importance of the following The Patriach of the Chaldean Catholic Church, ie the number 1 man of the Chaldean Church between 1989 to 2000, up to his death stated two occasions right before his death asserts that his followers are of "Nestorian Assyrian" by ethnicity but Chaldean in faith on LBC TV on April 30, 2000. Here is something Chaldos from Detroit need to understand - Before the establishment of the Chaldean church in 1553, nobody called themselves Chaldean. The word Chaldean was invisable after the fall of Chaldea dynasty in 4th century BC, up to 1553. So please, enough with this silly statements like "if where one people, why did chaldea fight with assyria". Ancient Chaldeans of Chaldea and Ur assumulated into Arab and Persians of today. Chaldean 17:40, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

The Chaldean Catholic Church was established in 1553, however it did not derive from an Assyrian Church nor were the follower all assyrians. Why do assyrians love taking credit for things that have never established. If a person thinks the Nestorian Church consisted only out of Assyrians, then he shouldnt even be here typing in the first place. The Nestorian Church was first established in Persia, and strecthed from middleast all the way to China. After the fall of the Assyrian and Chaldean dynasty, they were under Persian and Mede's rule due to their lack of power, but that doesnt mean that they just assumalate into other type of people, you should know better than that. When the Nestorian Church was established the majoriy of the people who lived in the area of today's Iraq joined the Nestorian Church, and they were people who's empire/dynasty had lost their independance. So when the Nestorian Church was finally weakend, the Chaldeans were finally able to reunite with the Pope under the rule of their Chaldean Patriach Mar Soulaqa. link titleThis website proves that the Chaldean Catholic Church derived from the Nestorian Church, not the Assyrian Church cause that was yet to be established.

Asm ccc 15:23, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

What is wrong Chaldean, have you run out of refutes, or are you convinced that you were wrong, i want the article to be changed, and not rechanged, cause by the looks of it you are convinced that the ancient Chaldeans relate s to today's Chaldeans.

124.184.236.221 23:12, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

1. Sign in when you want to make a comment. 2. I dont have time for child's play. Please see your talkpage. Chaldean 00:24, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Funny when you have been proven wrong, you stop refuting and called it child's play, you know what, i never knew this was a game, and i dont regard it as a game, i take this seriously, maybe you think its fun playing with the way people think, but i dont, i want the truth to be known, and not some crazy theory like the one "they just assumalated somehow", you have no idea how stupid the theory of yours sound.

Asm ccc 10:34, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] For Chaldeans all over the world

Once again it has been prove that Chaldeans are not ethnically Assyrians. Yes the Chaldean Catholic Church derived from the Nestorian church, however, the Nestorian Church had not yet been given the name the Assyrian Church of the East, it was later on. The nestorian Church united the Chaldean, Syrian and the Assyrians into one people, the people of mesopotamia, the different people split and got back their unique identity again, however, there is a chance that some few of today's Chaldeans and Assyrians are not from the racial group as they believe that they are from due to the Nestorian Church which had united them as one people for such a long time.

Anyone who states that Chaldeans are ethnically Assyrians are influenced by all the propaganda of today's world. Just because someome supplies you with an internet article suggesting that Chaldeans are ethnically Assyrians doesnt necessarily make it true, from all we know it could be written by an assyrian, if you want the truth, visit official website which cannot be edited by anyone.

Asm ccc 05:30, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] ASM, please...

First and formost none of the "Assyrian" or "Chaldean" Emperors referred to themselves as such. They all referred to themselves as Kings of "Sumer and Akkad." Assyrian (Babylonian as well) was coined by the Greeks centuries after (in a historical context) to refer to those whom held Ashur as the supreme diety in the land of Sumer and Akkad for example as the Jews referred to southern Mesopotamia as "Shinar" which meant "land of the moon [god]." "Babylonia" was also coined by the Greeks to refer to southern Mesopotamia which had its "capital" in Bab-ilu aka Kadingirra aka "Babylon." Just as people in ancient Sumer and Akkad referred to themselves by the city-state they inhabbited and religion they followed so do the modern people, they refer to their ethno-religious group by village and/or "national" origin. "Chaldean" was also coined by the Greeks to refer to the last indegenous conquerors of "Babylonia." In reality in the Syriac language we ALL refer to ourselves as Sourayeh or Souryoyeh which is simply translated as Syrian in English which itself is Greek-derived from the designation of the former colonial territories of Assyria for they referred to Sumer and Akkad as Assyria and its colonies (Aram and Canaan) as Syria. That is it in a nutshell. We are Sourayeh/Souryoyeh and ultimately we are Assyrian, Babylonian, and the "Sons and Daughters of the Fusion of Sumer and Akkad." We are Chaldean as well and we are Aramaean as well. However if you want to get into semantics, some hold the God Ashur as one with the Christian God Yah(weh) aka "God the Father" which himself started out as the Canaanite storm god which was roughly equivelent to Ashur and interpreted by the "Hebrews" as the one God; the so-called "sky axle" or "Holder of Heaven" therefore we are THE true "Assyrians" in an ethno-religious sense. Also compare Yah to Ea and you will see the origins of the Abrahamic religions lie in the land that is now called Iraq. The Tsar is Gone but I am King 15:37, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Chaldean is Greek-derived from the Akkadian_language form of "Kaldu" which in Hebrew is "Kasdu" which may actually be in refference to the Kassites whom once ruled Babylon well before the "Chaldean Dynasty." It was also used interchangebly with "Astrologer" in which Astrology was key in the Mesopotamian religion so even in that sense we are true "Chaldeans" as well for Judaism is a monotheistic religion that evoloved from it and gradually evolved into Christianity and even Islam.The Tsar is Gone but I am King 17:09, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Finally we are getting somwhere

Sorry i have not been on for a long time to my busy schedule as an educator, however, i believe we are getting somwhere, tyou stated "We are Sourayeh/Souryoyeh and ultimately we are Assyrian, Babylonian, and the "Sons and Daughters of the Fusion of Sumer and Akkad." We are Chaldean as well and we are Aramaean as well" Thank you. I believe you are right, but why does it say in the front page of the article say that chaldeans are contemporary Assyrians

Asm ccc 00:21, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

but why does it say in the front page of the article say that chaldeans are contemporary Assyrians - because your Patriach says so. Chaldean 00:47, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Let me tell you one thing Chaldean, just because a patriarch does mention something it doesnt mean it has to be true, several popes have made enourmos mistsakes, and Patriarchs and priests are no difference. A Patriarch is educated in religion, not in ancient or modern history. I am an Indegenous Iraqi, and just as you said, most or all races are not pure blooded, how then can you be so sure that some of those you call Assyrians are not Chaldean. Chaldeans were a part of Babylonia ever after the 7th century BC and they were known as the last indegenous conquerors of the land, and of course you with your elementary arguments are going to refute and say, why do most Chaldeans live in northern Iraq, well after the city of Babylon was in ruins, (however not totally destroyed, it still exist today) under th Selucid Empire, most Chaldeans/Babylonians, were forced to travel north to search for a new home, and since Babylon was not populated anymore, the farmers had no choice but to move north for the search for more fertilised land and also since they no longer belonged to a city/state which they could sell their surplus to. Our Patriarch teaches us about our faith, not our ancestors, get that through your head, i have never heard a Chaldean priest mention the ancient empire nor any of our kings and call us all sons of God, unlike (well i wont say most since i dont have a number) some Assyrian priest which i have been preached to included the God Ashur and many of the kings of Assyria, well Chaldean, if you get your information from some Priests, i feel sorry for you since i get my information from the Vatican which employ historians.

124.183.57.239 06:14, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

No offense, but who are you, a 15 year old in Austtralia, to tell the people in the homeland what is their identity? Take a look at these pictures; [[1]]. Do you see what I see? Chaldean Catholics waving the Assyrian national flag. Who are you to tell them they are not Assyrian? Why dont you go back to the homeland and talk to these people? Let us know if you have converted them. Chaldean 16:07, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] CHALDEANS ARE NOT ASSYRIANS!!!!

Chaldeans are not Assyrians & don't criticize others who don't agree with you. So why do you have a screen name of Chaldean when really you are an Assyrian trying to be a Chaldean. Don't push your beliefs on to others. Now I'm not trying to tell you I'm against Assyrians or I hate them or something, I do have close relatives that are Assyrians that are family but nonetheless we are different. First & foremost is the religion....Chaldeans are Catholic & Assyrians are Eastern Orthodox. Second Chaldeans speak a different language but similar to Assyrians or vice-versa. Third of all, Chaldeans in whole come from a unity of multiple cities that include Telkphe, Batnya, Mosul, Dahuk, Alqoush, etc. but Assyrians come from Nineveh, Iran, Syria, & parts of Turkey. Even though we share the same culture, have similar languages yet still obviously different, & have a history that is closely tied....it does not mean we are the same. For example, all the middle east countries have the same basics of culture & food, speak the middle eastern language of arabic...HOW COME JORDAN IS NOT CLAIMING IRAQ AS BEING THE CONTEMPORARY JORDANIANS, OR SAUDI ARABIA CLAIMING EGYPT AS BEING SAUDI ARABIA ETC. Another example if two people were born in the same city, ate the same food, & fought the same war that doesn't make them the same or one of them being the contemporary of the other. One could be a muslim & the other a christian even though CLOSLY RELATE BUT NOT THE SAME OR BEING CLAIMED AS ONE OF THE OTHER OR BEING THE COMTEMPORARY OF THE OTHER. DO NOT GENERALIZE!!! DO NOT CRITICIZE OTHERS & HAVE A MATURE DISCUSSION ABOUT THIS THATS WHY SITES LIKE THIS ARE MADE, SO YOU CAN HAVE A FREE MIND!!! -- KALMANI 00:29, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Please do not use caps. Also note to not delete sourced info. Chaldean 15:10, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

You deleted my three sources that I gave you & you gave me a biased Assyrian Source. You keep on reverting back & deleting my contributions because its true & its not in your beliefs. Do not change something to what you dont know & dont delete any contributions to this page. You are not the on e& only. DO NOT DELETE ANY CONTRIBUTIONS Chaldean becuase you have no authorization to do so. This is a collaboration not bias to your beliefs. Read my sources & DO NOT DELETE!--KALMANI 16:03, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Your edits dont make sense. Please tell me how I am giving you "baised Assyrian sources"? The sources I am giving you are;

• Strickert, Fred. "Christianity in Iraq: A Small But Respected and Multi-Faceted Population", Washington Report on Middle East Affairs, March 1999, pp. 81-82. - last time I checked Fred Strickert is not an Assyrian and The Washington Report is not an Assyrian newspaper.
• Jonathan Eric Lewis, "Iraqi Assyrians: Barometer of Pluralism," The Middle East Quarterly, Vol. 10 (Summer 2003). - last time I checked Jonathan Lewis is not an Assyrian and Middle East Qaurterly is not an Assyrian magazine.
• Al-Machriq, “Revue Catholique Orientale Mensuelle,” 2, no. 3 (Beyrouth, 1899): 97. [1] - Al-Machriq is not an Assyrian and the Lebanese Journal he wrote for was not an Assyrian journal.

In conclusion, I advice you to leave your Sterling Heights home and explore outside of Michigan. Go back home and ask Chaldean Catholics about their identity instead of trying to paint them something else. If Chaldeans in Iraq dont consider themselves Assyrian then they would not be waving Assyrian flags. Pshena. Chaldean 16:10, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Kalmani please calm down, if you continue the page will be locked and than you cannot edit anything I'll be back to confirm this. Artaxiad 16:14, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Cahldean you are reverting back to your biased opinion & deleting my contributions because they're against your beliefs which are untrue, so why dont crawl from underneath that rock & educate your little mind & explore the truth. I live where I live but if you are threatening me you will be reported. So dont intimidate none who is trying to help. You are feeble minded & you are trying to criticize others. This page will be locked & let the truth be told that you cant push beliefs onto others & make people believe that it is true. just because a Hawaiian waives a chinese flag or a asian waiving a Turkish doesn't necessarily mean that they are chinese or Turkish. So open your mind & think, dont be dum to your thoughts, understand what is true & accept it.--KALMANI 16:52, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

How about you open your mind and understand what is the truth and accept it? Your edits are pure vandelism and dont make any sense or redundunt of whats already their. Your the one that deleting sourced and unbaised info because its against YOUR beliefs. Please refrain from this. I have reported you to 2 mods and the more RV you do the more its going to go against you. So please stop. Chaldean 16:55, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

I didn't vandalize nothing. I gave you three sources & I repeat for the third time which you didn't believe in. One source was from an anthropologist from Atlanta, Georgia which is a creditable source. Second from a very reliable source the church. So dont tell me what I believe in or don't. So stop reverting to your beliefs & bias. so please refrain from your bias & stop reverting to your nonsense. its like a drug company having a trial on the drugs while people are dying & saying there drugs are safe kinda like your sources sir. So I reported to the mods & the more RV you do the worse it'll get for you. what comes around goes around & stop threatening me . You have been reported & any future threats will be taken seriously. Do not try to criticize or intimidate me or others who dont believe in your bias thoughts.--KALMANI 17:15, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

As a matter of fact, the first link works & it takes you directly to the source which is a pdf. Second of all, you insulted me by vandalizing the page with your biased resources & comments & erasing/deleting my contributions with verifiable sources. I've been very mature in trying to resolve this issue with you but you have been single-minded & one-way in your thinking. Remember again this wiki community is a collaboration of many not one. You have undoubtedly not researched the subject your commenting on & believing that what people have told you. You are here to help out other people in learning the facts not biased material from sources getting biased information. I did include my sources so you can research this material. By the way there is a library, internet, & books where you can find valuable information about the sources I have included & many more. You can contact the sources directly by emailing them or calling them directly through my first source. Please refrain from intimidating, criticizing, & threatening others who try to contribute to the wiki. One example of this towards me is I advice you to leave your Sterling Heights home and explore outside of Michigan.[2]. Second example where you try to intimidate & criticize others is this No offense, but who are you, a 15 year old in Austtralia, to tell the people in the homeland what is their identity [3]. Third example is Your edits are pure vandelism and dont make any sense or redundunt of whats already their. [4] where you misrepresent others who are trying to contribute & saying that they are vandalizing the page & the harassing them. This is not a mafia or a cult that you are trying to control. You can't just believe that by harassing, threatening, intimidating, criticizing & then vandalizing the contributing user. You will be blocked. Please refrain from doing this because all it does is cause more animosity between the parties. Don't think this is a tyranny. Don't harass me in not letting me or others in trying to contribute by telling us that we are vandalizing & telling lies & then telling us that you reported us to the mods or admins. This is not a kids game. Doesn't matter who you know or what you do, when somebody reads this & finds out what you are doing you will be banned & blocked. This will not get you no where. Believe me you don't scare me or don't think this will stop me from contributing to the community with facts. The wiki should be free from bias & tell nothing but the truth & not some theories that you believe in. As far the part about the Wikipedia:Disambiguation, you told me about that only once & then I entered that back in with my contributions as you can see here [5] & that you were right & I apologize about that. I had rectified that situation but you keep on telling lies about vandalism. You will respect others & in there contributions. The wiki has stated that good-faith is a fundamental principle on Wikipedia but you keep on reverting back to your biased info & not letting others contribute as you can see in the history of that article which is here [6]. By the way, you did break the WP:3RR, you at least reverted back to you biased info & deleted my contributing efforts at least four times. I warned you about it in your page plus I told not to vandalize my page but you kept on doing it & harassing me. I hope the Wikipedia admin resolve this & hand out your consequence accordingly. Thank You! --KALMANI 23:38, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Chaldean, are you deleting Kalmani's sources because you know that you have been proven wrong, or is it just to hard for an assyrian to admitt that their population is much less than the one of the Chaldeans. Why is it so difficult for you to give up, why are you trying to feed people's mind with propaganda. All those sources not only I, but also Kalmani have provided you with have just been deleted while your bias sources (i would'nt be suprised if you got one from assyrianchat) are the ones who are left there now. I have asked you several questions which you could not answer. Let me tell you why you once and for all why everyone thinks that Chaldeans and Assyrians are just Assyrians and I'm not not talking about the establishment of the Chaldean Church in 16th c AD nor am i talking about the establishment of the Assyrian Church of the East which was established after the Chaldean Church. The Churches were established a long time after the Seleucid Empire which was the reason why the Chaldeans had to migrate to today's Northern Iraq and since then Chaldeans and Assyrians have lived as neighbours. What I am talking about is world war 1. I hope this doesnt mean that I have to give you some History lesson however, dont hesitate asking if this information is to hard for you to understand. In world war 1, the Ottoman Empire was a great ally with Germany which Britian was terrified from. Britian quickly made sure to establish some allies in the middleast. Britian could not trust any of the goverments of the middle east cause most of them were already under the control of the Ottoman Empire. Who did Britian turn to, well not the Chaldeans cause they were faithful to the Roman Catholic Church and Italy so Britian took up an aliiance with the Assyrians. Its here where propaganda comes in. If it was Germany who had won the war, Assyrians would have lost their identity, Kaiser wilhem 2nd was ready to change the world's history books the same way the Triple Entene did after the war. Dont you think its funny how in every history book, Germany and it's allies are the evil ones and Britian and it's allies are the heroes. I hope this hasnt confused you to much since your level of education isnt as high as mine and i have used simple language for you not to misunderstand any thing that I have written, and just incase you still dont understand what my meaning was, i will rewrite it just for you. Since Assyrians were on the winning side, their identity was more published and since the Chaldeans were obedient to their rulers (Ottoman Empire which lost the war), they have lost a lot of their sources and some of their identity. This is why it is so hard to find sources about Chaldeans, however, thanks to the Bible and sources from the Vatican we know our true identity, and since the Bible is one source which has not changed, at least not in the last 15 centuries we could realy on it unlike you sources which were established around 5-20 years ago.

By Proffesor Marco Asm ccc 03:58, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

An offer for user Chaldean and user Sargonius: You know what is so funny, your main argument so far about Chaldeans are Assyrians is that you are a Chaldean Catholic and you know that you are an Assyrian, my friend welcome to the real world, no one cares what you think, back up your argument, i could also make an account called Assyrian, and start writing that all Assyrians are Chaldeans, but fortunately for you, I dont go that level. You have yet not proven that Chaldeans are contemporary Assyrian, and the only source you have provided me and wikipedia with is the same source you can find in every single website about Assyrians, word for word, its called copy and paste, and it is also called, anyone can put up a website on the internet. I am here to make a deal with you and user Chaldean, since we find it very hard to put an end to each other's arguments, why can't we agree to write that Chaldeans are the Catholics belonging to the Chaldean Catholic Church??? Think about it!!

Proffesor Marco Asm ccc 04:13, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Nothing but garbage. You guys are so confused asking "if your Chaldean then why do you say your Assyrian?" Author Ren A. Hakim puts it best in her interview; "I was born and raised in Michigan. I'm half Iraqi (ethnic Assyrian, Chaldean sect)". Deal with it. Chaldean 16:49, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Why are assyrians arguing?

Chaldeans are Chaldeans, Asssyrians are Assyrians- that's just the way it is. Myself, being an ethnic Assyrian from Nineveh, or around that area ( I cant really be sure, since Assyria no longer exists- duh!!!!!), believe it's wrong us to attempt to claim another race, despite having very simliar cultures and launguage( the religion being the only major milestone towards complete unification?, to be ours.I am an Aturiah, and to all my Assyrian brothers- unite under our flag- and leave spaces under it for Assyrians- not Chaldeans. Assyrian blood n veins 04:32, 24 February 2007 (UTC)