Talk:Chainmail

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[edit] Sources

Anyone want to help get sources on most of the statements on here? I've got a few sites now since I've been doing a research paper on medieval armor and could help, but looking at the article I would only be able to get part of all the statements sourced since I really don't have anything on Japanese mail and such.

Megamanfanx7 18:08, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Suggest for Ciumesti: M. Rusu. Das keltische Fürstengrab von Ciumesti in Rumänien. Ber. RGK50, 1969. 267-300

Zirra, V. 1991. La necropoli e la tomba del capo di Ciumesti. In S. Moscati et al. (eds), I Celti, pp. 382-383. Milan: Bompiani. 72.48.99.100 18:22, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Latin Name

does anyone know the latin name for Chainmail as I have searched for MACULA and always end up at spot, blemish etc??? —219.88.43.216 00:19, 18 Jul 2003 (UTC)

The lorica hamata might be what you're looking for. Macula does mean spot or blemish, but it also mean "mesh," particularly that of a net, and is the origin of mail in its armor-related meaning. —68.44.65.38 12:29, 23 Dec 2003 (UTC)

[edit] Page Name

This is crazy. Can we move it back please? "Chain maille" gets less than 5% of the number of hits of "Chainmail". I know the etymology, but we happen to have a policy of titling articles after the commonly used English term. dab (ᛏ) 11:48, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Knotted Mail

Anyone have pictures of knotted mail to add to this one? -- Dbroadwell 17:01, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Knotted mail being what, exactly? Do you mean something involving twisted wire? Edit: Like this? (It's what Google gave.) Sucinen 12:03, 5 Jun 2005
Perhaps. As a chainmailler myself, I'd put that under a separate wireworks section, as that type of work is created very differently, and it is a mere subset of a the wire weaving art, to which that website is dedicated. Perhaps even we could split this article into chainmaille (armor) and chainmaille (other, probably jewelry), and include knotted maille in there. There probably is some sort of request form for spliting articles, but being new, I'm not sure what that is. ---Idiot with a gun 19:23, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Photo Orientation

---Would the original poster of the Photographs take them down and rotate them 90 degrees? Thats the way chainmail is supposed to go, by having the mail shown the way it is on this page it is innacurate and misleading.-Dark357g---

The detail photos are only intended to provide a clear view of the structure, not to be any sort of fashion statement. Chainmail can go any way the maker wants it to go.
Um - that's true, but with certain limitations. Hauberks or other shirts of mail typically have the mail oriented so as to fall together, rather than apart. The closer position of the rings results in more fluid movement of the mail, and therefor greater mobility and comfort to the wearer. I speak under correction, but I believe that mail armor almost always had its rings oriented in this fashion. In any case, the photo has been rotated. --Badger151 04:23, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ring Cutting

I'd like to meet anybody who has successfully used a rotary tool to cut rings. (Really. Leave me a message.) I have tried using rotary tools. It doesn't work too well. The rings get loose and jam, often breaking the discs, and when successful, too much material is removed in the cutting process, making lopsided rings. The larger the disc, the worse the effect.

Jeweler's saws and hacksaws will work, but again, material is removed, and the process would be much more time consuming than clipping. Except for jewelery or fine decorative uses, this would be impractical.

Finally, the rings in the photo were made by the process described: stretching the coil before cutting. It is possible to make deformed rings with this process, but with practice, this is easily avoided.

Wayne 15:06, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

It seems to me that I did have some luck using either a saw or a cut-off wheel, but as you note, there was a loss of material, yielding a smaller ring. At that point I had already made almost a square foot of mail by using a pair of wirecutters, and as I was loath to abandon that, I instead abandoned the too-small rings and went back to using a wire-cutter (diagonal pliers). --Badger151 04:31, 21 October 2006 (UTC)


Use a pair of aviation snips (compound lever 'tinsnips' shown on wikipedia) these should leave you with non historic round rings, should be able to get down to fairly small rings with unmodified shears. You can go very fast, get maybe 8 or so rings at a time, and once you get good, sitting with the shear sort of on your thigh and pushing down with your weight, a bucket between your legs to catch the rings, you'll go far faster than any cutting wheel attempts I've seen. You don't even need to pull your coils open, the shears deform the rings a bit to open them, which means you can easily link them if you are just doing butted maille. --Talroth 07:02, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Decorative mail

I can't seem to move the above posts this section, but Idiot with a gun brings up a good point. There is a difference between historical mail and modern jewelry mail and weaves. Jewelery mail often has little to do with the historical concept of mail and it's uses, but some of it's weaves are derived from it, and the terminology comes from there as well. New article? Sethwoodworth 22:55, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

As he said, there are hundreds of modern maille weaves, usually catagorized as European, Japanese, Persian, Spiral, and Hybrid (the miscellaneous catagory), and are catagorized by their similarity to the "father" weaves, if you will, of each catagory. However, most of these have little to no combat use (as with most modern non-riveted/welded maille), so they are quite different from the chainmaille discussed here. ---Idiot with a gun 00:38, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Right, not to mention all of the historical Oriental weaves involving hexigonal and triangular shapes and the like. Not something I've played with personally. There is probably a much stronger connection between the modern weaves and jewelery, especially with the spiral weaves, which are better suited for strands than sheets. I wonder if something of the like already exists on wiki? Sethwoodworth 12:08, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Japanese Mail

Japanese mail was neither rivetted nor solid. Thus butted mail did exist and it is weak. The statement that mail was never wore without a gambeson cannot be verified, thus is misleading.

I added more about Japanese mail, but it probably needs some rewording, and I'm a bit strapped for time. --Idiot with a gun 21:23, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Arrow resistance

I am reverting the arrow resistance mention. I have seen modern scientific data that shows mail with a proper padded garment being sufficiently resistant to arrows.

At the very least the wording is misleading, the topic is a lot more complicated and deserves to be covered in it's own section. There have been no conclusive scientific tests that show a vulnerability of mail to arrows.

If mail "offered little to no protection against arrows" then a group of archers would be able to overwhelm anyone armed in only mail. Mail would be obsolete and stop being worn, which wasn't something that happened until the rise of gunpowder.Sethwoodworth 21:32, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Maille was made obsolete by the rise of better swords, and archery techniques. A standard hunting (broad head) arrow tip will probably not pierce chainmaille, and often the thick leather underneath it saved the wearer. Swords during the era of chainmaille hauberks were iron and crude steel, and lacked the structural integrity to do a stabbing technique, in which you would risk destroying the blade due to entanglement and torque. Therefore, most warriors used shields and swords for slashing techniques, which maille was very good at defending against. Once better steel started to show up in swords, and the longbow was developed (with longer armor piercing points, that lacked the broad sides to get caught by), chainmaille began to become the armor of choice among lower pay infantry, where knights started using solid breast plates, and eventually the traditional full suits of armor. Chainmaille as a main form of armor was gone long before firearms came about. ---Idiot with a gun 19:27, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Well yes and no. Mail became obsolete because of steel plate armor and eventually firearms. But both of those could be explained as socio-economic factors. Mail is suprisingly sturdy. If it could be punctured easily with an arrow it wouldn't have been worn for thousands of years, as it was. A good stab on properly riveted mail *can* do damage, sometimes. It depends far more on the geometry of sword tips, which is in turn affected by metalurgy to some degree.
On the other hand, sword and shield techniques used thrusts as well as cuts and strikes according to artwork and extant manuscripts. And according to armor finds such as Wisby thrusts aren't the main source of death and damage to armor. Far more deaths are due to blunt force trauma and broken limbs. A sword can do more than cut thrust and strike (not the same as a cut) it can also be used to close with an opponent and grapple with them. Which throughout history in all extant combat training manuscripts (and even a good deal of ancient Roman verse) show using one's sword as a lever, not so much to attack the armor. Besides, while an opponent is attacking your armor you can cleave them to your heart's content. As plate armor rose for knights, the infantry's man Jack, or Aketon was preferred over mail. Mail was incredably expensive still. Gonnes or firearms started to rise in the 1400's, albet slowly. Mail was still the base and main form of defense in this time period. It was augmented with plate armor more and more over the next 300+ years. But one doesn't see plate armor for protection against firearms until the late 1600's. Sethwoodworth 22:03, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Reversion

Latest reversion was made because it placed the word 'sometimes' in an improper place. Mail is made of small interlocking rings, not just sometimes. Sethwoodworth 16:25, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Asian Patterns

It should be mentioned that the chief difference of european and asian maille is it's function. Europeans used maille as the primary armor, or as flexible joints for the groin, shoulder, or neck. Asian armors used it only for connecting large plates. The patterns they used did not 'mesh' in the same way as european patterns.

But it was used instead of an organic material because it would protect from wounds in gaps between plates. In India (which you may or may not be using in your deffinition here) many armor finds are complete mail shirts with some overlappping plates of mail over the spine and shoulders. So to say that it wasn't used for protection at all isn't exactly right, but for *some* armors it's arguably not the main purpose. Sethwoodworth 17:32, 28 February 2006 (UTC)


True, I suppose it's too fine of a point to really be worth mentioning. Anyone who cares that much will be going beyond wiki anyway.

[edit] Swimming in Armour

Believe or not, this has been done. Tuomas Viljanen, a Finnish Medieval re-enactor and former competive swimmer, did test swimming in sea wearing hauberk and chausses in Finland 1993. He described it extremely exhausting but certainly possible. Since mail certainly won't float and the natural body buoyance is reduced by the weight of armour, it requires great effort, but an experienced swimmer can do it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 192.100.124.218 (talk • contribs).

Source? I'd like to know what the armor was made of, at the very least. --Eyrian 07:28, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
There was a discussion on swimming in armour on the Plate Armour Talk Page. While not specifically about chainmail, please do provide any citation (video would be a boon) or the type of hauberk, used (ring size, steel type) etc and the distance swam, any currents, and the time it took to complete the feat. -- Xiliquiern 12:09, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Merge

I have added a suggested merge to move the European 4-1 page, currently a very small stub, into this article. European 4-1 is a type of chainmail, and I think it would be rather difficult to come up with much to make an entire article on just 4-1 link pattern. --Xiliquiern 17:37, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Sounds great. Go ahead. --Eyrian 17:40, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

I should have made note of this in my original post, but the merge will take place "After sufficient time has elapsed to generate consensus or silence (at least 5 days)" per guidelines on merging pages. --Xiliquiern 19:03, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

I think this is an obvious enough case where you don't really need to wait. This article already has as much information on the 4-1 pattern as European 4-1 has anyway. TCC (talk) (contribs) 20:06, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
Alright, I thought so, but wanted at least another person to confirm it. The merge has been completed. If I did something wrong (my first merge) please feel free to correct it - I'll see it in the edit history. Thanks.--Xiliquiern 21:34, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Fringe mail types

Theblindsage 09:34, 8 February 2007 (UTC) Isn't 'double mail' kind of a bunk concept? Doubling the number of rings certainly doubles the weight, but I don't think it doubles the protection. References to 'double-linked' seem to refer to 6 in 1 linkages, rather then 4 in 1 linkages. http://www.geocities.com/athens/olympus/3505/index.html

Is there any evidence for the actuality of 'bar mail', which is 4 in 1 maille with every fourth ring being punched rather then welded, riveted or butted. http://artofchainmail.com/history.html. Some sources seem to say yes (http://www.arador.com/articles/chainmail.html) but I am unsure about what to accept.

Out of idle curiosity, why is there no woven or knitted wire armor? Given that all Maille starts life as wire, why did no one ever just make the wire directly into armor? I've found examples, but they are more curiosity then armor. http://www.golden-knots.com/mail.html

Double mail may very well be historical bunk. But, I'd imagine it would double protection. Mail tends to fail by forcing the rings apart. Two rings will require twice as much force to separate.
There certainly seem to be instances of bar mail. But I'm not convinced that it was a common thing. It may have been simply for decoration.
People wouldn't knit wire directly into armour because that is just much more difficult to do. It's easier to do a small, simple operation with a workpiece a thousand times than knitting a very long, bulky wire into a massive, singular suit. Also, if a mail shirt was damaged in combat, the broken links could be easily replaced. Engineering naturally lends itself to mass-produced identical structures. (it's worth noting that the piece you link to is also not knitted in a single piece, it is a series of small knots)--Eyrian 15:32, 8 February 2007 (UTC)


Double mail is bunk. There are no european examples but one gorget at the MET, and it was 'reconstructed' in the late 1800's and is very very suspect. And I don't believe that the extra rings would contribute double strength. I think that it would be some small fraction of that, and would be better served by making the wire double thickness. Because each wire ring of a shirt could be, and often was a separate thickness, varying from the top of a shirt to the bottom.
Bar mail, although I am not familiar with the term, seems to correspond with the fairly common roman practice of alternating rows of riveted mail with rings punched out of sheet metal. This practice fell into decline after the fall of the roman empire because there was very little sheet metal available. I seem to remember some later instances of it when sheet metal became available in decent quantities, but I don't have any reff's off hand.
Woven or knitted wire mail is unlikely, because wire flexible enough to be worn wouldn't be as protective as riveted mail. Also most available wire was soft iron, like rebar tie iron today. It's soft and malliable and fairly weak until one hardens and anneals it like one does in weaving mail.
Also drawing wire of length above that for making rings is a pain in the @$$.
Pick up a copy of AAOTMK: Arms and Armor of the Medieval Knight, great book and covers a lot of this material. (aside: I edited the arador 'chainmail' article when I was with the knights of arador. Sethwoodworth 19:24, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
Some more information about theta mail: Forth Armoury --Eyrian 20:25, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Skydiving in armor

Some skydivers will wear a weight vest or weight belt to increase their fall rates. Usually it's smaller people trying to keep up with the bigger people, but sometimes it's bigger people (like me) trying to pick up the pace a bit more. I've made about a hundred jumps while wearing a shirt of mail (about 27 lbs). Weight vests have pouches which hold tubes of lead shot. I like the chainmail shirt much better because it breaths well during the summer and it isn't as bulky. While weight vests are routine, wearing chainmail is not a common practice, and the only source I could find was from rec.skydiving (a good old fashioned Usenet group) [1]. Rklawton 02:32, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Russian armor

I've got a few dozen closeup photos of medieval Russian armor from the Kremlin Armoury. Would they be of use here? Rklawton 02:32, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

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