Talk:CH-46 Sea Knight

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Contents 1 I LOVE SEA KNIGHTS. 2 CH-46A was SAR as well 3 Spanish Translation 4 SAR photo 5 Photo for consideration 6 Cost 7 CH-46 & Model 107

[edit] I LOVE SEA KNIGHTS.

This page needs to be fixed and updated by someone who knows how to do that. I'm still new to wikipedia, and do not know how to do such things.24.60.124.8 13:10, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] CH-46A was SAR as well

The CH-46A was also used as a SAR aircraft. As late as 1981 it was in use at SOES, MCAS Cherry Point, NC. I worked in that squadron and maintained the electrical and avionics systems on the aircraft.Flybd5 00:46, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Spanish Translation

Took me a few hours but I've now finished the Spanish translation of this page. Flybd5 22:36, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] SAR photo

I believe the photo is not clear enough for article use. However, it could probably be posted at {commons|CH-46 Sea Knight}, which has a link in the article. - BillCJ 17:46, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

I didn't post it because it was a clear photo, I posted it because it is the only photo of the CH-46A SOES SAR birds I know of, and documents that the Corps had CH-46A's in SAR duty. The funny thing is, I've received messages from VMR-1 current personnel expressing amazement that the flight ramp looks exactly the same now as it did 25+ years go. Flybd5 17:50, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

No matter the reason you posted it, I have to agree with Bill and say the photo is not clear enough to be used in the CH-46 article. It does not add anything to knowledge of the aircraft. If you truly feel it is historically significant then post it in the VMR-1 article or maybe even MCAS Cherry Point. The other photos used in this article are clear, large and or show the aircraft in one of it's roles. A blurry photo of 2 birds on the tarmac adds nothing to a person's knowledge of the aircraft and really is not "that" historically significant.--Looper5920 18:45, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Image use policy and Wikipedia:Arguments to avoid in deletion discussions. Subjective opinions are not relevant to whether an image deserves to be included in an article. That's clear Wikipedia policy. When I joined the editors on this article did not identify SAR as a CH-46A function. The VMR-1 article doesn't even mention SOES. Flybd5 23:42, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

We are not asking that the article be deleted from Wikipedia, which is what the pages you link to discuss. In addition, they do not exclude image quality as a criteria, which is my primary reason for supporting its removal from the page. You admitted it was an old print, which is evident in the pic itself, and not merely anyone's opinion. I am not in favor of the image being deleted from Wikipedia, only that it be removed from the article. The article links to the COmmons page for the CH-46, which is a good place for an image of that quality (as far as I know anyway). - BillCJ 23:59, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Well, if that's the case, the Bermuda regiment image falls under the same logic as you and Looper are proposing. That image is of the same or worse quality as the one I added, doesn't seem to add anything to a person's knowledge of the aircraft (by your standards) and is of even less historical significance because it shows nothing more than yet another of the thousands of practice TLZ landings Marine CH-46 aircraft made in Lejeune. Shall we move that as well by the same subjective standards you two wish to apply? Flybd5 00:07, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes--Looper5920 00:11, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

No, we should not delete it because of any "subjective" standard. But it should still be deleted because even you could tell it was of poor quality. Thanks for catching that one. One of the drawbacks of "instant editing" is that one can tend to focus only on the recent additions, because they are easy to spot on the Different Edits pages. Bowever, some of the older stuff, especially text, can go unnoticed for a long time. Thanks for catching it. - BillCJ 00:17, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

I think you both entirely missed my point. None of what you are proposing is in the spirit of what Wikipedia is supposed to be. Quality of images was never meant to be the standard on which decisions would be made on whether pictures should be displayed or not. Subjective assessments of what adds or doesn't add to what a reader gets from an article is not supposed to be a criteria either. The Wikipedia policies I pointed out do not talk specifically about deleting images entirely, they are meant to be guidelines on images, period. Anyone could subjectively argue that none of the images in this article add anything to the knowledge, and anyone could argue that any of them do. Subjective editing based on personal opinion is NOT what Wikipedia is about. Flybd5 18:43, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

You are right. Consensus is how things are done on wikipedia. By using that criteria as well the picture should be removed.--Looper5920 21:44, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Two vs One is not consensus. You need to study the Wikipedia guidelines more closely. Perhaps we should make an invitation to the community to participate in this discussion in order to facilitate a true consensus decision that will work for all. Flybd5 14:21, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Photo for consideration

Photo of the CH-46's control panel for consideration. Not sure if it is worth posting on the page or not. I'll put it here. Use it if you think it is wortwhile.--Looper5920 10:14, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

I think that's a CH-53E panel. The pedals say 'Sikorsky' and the panel has 3 sets of engine gauges.--Herbalicious 23:24, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Cost

Does anyone know how much one of these costs the government? I think that would be interesting to add to the article. Thanks, laurap414 15:53, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] CH-46 & Model 107

Sir, what is your intent by removing the Columbia Helicopters photos from the CH-46 page? You stated "we don't need 2 pics of CHC birds on the same pad." First, CHC is not Columbia Helicopters, they are two completly different companies. Second, we have two photos of CH-46s Sitting "on the same pad" aka the USS Saipan on the page. Third, the reason for the photo one is to provide a detail shot of the civil models of the CH-46 & CH-47. The second photo is to show the current configuration of the former Thai aircraft N187CH after Thailand was removed from the page as a user. Please respond. Thank you, Trashbag 20:22, 14 February 2007 (UTC) (Moved from user talk page by BillCJ)

Oops, I meant Columbia (CHI), not CHC (typo). The current pic of the Thai aircraft doesn't show that it was in THai service. I hadn't noticed that there were two Saipan pics, but by all means remove one of them, I won't object. Both CHI pics are really too dark to see much detail, at least on the older system I use. And finally, your addition of the last pic aused blank space in the text; it had to be moved anyway, and I didnt really see the point of having two mediocre views of the same pad in the article, when one will do. It doesn't matter to me which one, I just believe we don't need both pics. - BillCJ 20:40, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Reviewing the conversations proceeding this one it appears that you have removed previous photographs from this site. According to Wikipedia:Image use policy under Deleting Images you are to "contact (through their talk page) the user who uploaded the image, telling them of your concerns." It appears again that you are using subjective standards to remove media from this site. To address your concerns: "The current pic of the Thai aircraft doesn't show that it was in THai service" Reference #9 (next to Thailand) shows N187CH on its sheet. If you wish more tractability I will edit the caption under the photo showing “N187CH, formerly of Royal Thai Government Lottery Office, and Office of Prime Minister” to draw the direct connection. "Both CHI pics are really too dark to see much detail" Photo One is a shot performed on a cloudy day and is of size 2592x1944. By clicking on the thumbnail from the site you will be able to see an expanded shot of this image to see enough detail to see the location of the fine between the static ports on the nose of the aircraft. Photo Two is a shot performed in daylight and is of size 1600x1200. Again, select the thumbnail from the site and you will see the expanded shot. "And finally, your addition of the last pic aused blank space in the text; it had to be moved anyway" If there was a blank space, then correct that. Do not delete media from the site. --Trashbag 21:28, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

That policy talks about deleting images from the servers/database, not from its placement in an article. --Born2flie 21:40, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

I do concur, however it does provide good precedence to the fact of opening lines of communications prior to deleting material. In regards to the stack up the photos the images can be easily re-layed (poor word selection I know...) using Wikipedia:Picture_tutorial. In reality a topic such as this it might be a prime time to start up a photo gallery. What are everyone's thought on this?--Trashbag 22:07, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry if my removal of the page offended you, or otherwisebothered you. No offense was intended. I sometimes communicate on issues before taking action, and sometimes afterwards; it just depends on the issue.

In my opinion, the article had enough pics as it is. YOu disagree, that's fine; I hope we can reach a compromise on this. Since you read the above discussions, you should have noticed that some of the other editors emphasised what the pics contribute to the article as a whole. I really don't see that the second pic adds anything to the casual observer, as-is in the text, that the first one does not. As far as the THai issue is concered, what is needed is a good verifiable reference to cite which shows the This uses the aircraft. A pic caption is probably not the best place to try to prove that issue.

On the Gallery issue, as purely preference, I don't like them. I feel that is what the Commons page is for, and why we link to that site in the articles. Galleries are rarely used in WP:AIR project articles (I haven't asked why) as a general rule. To my knowledge, however, there is no project guideline against using them. If you can get several editors to support using a gallery here, then fine. That's how consensus works. I'll vote against it, but I won't delete it if the consensus is for it. - BillCJ 23:58, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Where the shots are taken aside you must also consider that the three USMC shots of the bird show 3 completely different aspects and serve to show the reader what the Helo looks like from 3 very different angles. Just a thought.--Looper5920 11:36, 15 February 2007 (UTC)