Talk:Cessationism
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[edit] Bibliography
Removed Power Religion from the bibliography. It is a critique of the modern charismatic movement rather than an argument for cessationism, per se. DA Carson is certainly a continuationist (see Showing the Spirit) and I think Packer and Boice have similar views. David L Rattigan 19:37, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Clean-up tag
This article has some very good content, but its arrangement is rather haphazard, wordy, and lacking in citations. David L Rattigan 13:49, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Neutrality
The article is informative but clearly shows that the author (of this article) believes in charismata in some form. The Critiques section mentions each critique but imediately dispells them, i.e. "Numerous other passages clearly teach that all spiritual gifts will continue to the Second Coming of Christ" This is the authors belief, not a cited rebuttle of the Charismatic movement. In general, the whole section suffers from the same problem and needs to be written in accordance with the NPOV policy. --Gregoryg72 11:35, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
- I'll be happy to work on this article. Gregoryg72, if you haven't already, please consider joining the Charismatic project (see link at top). David L Rattigan 16:19, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
Charismatic penticostalism has 1 billion plus adherents? What nonsense is this? Thanatosimii 05:34, 5 July 2006 (UTC) For more reliable figures, see Johnstone, P.J. & Mandryk, J. "Operation World" Paternoster Press (2001) P.J. Baker 80.175.135.49 20:42, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
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- I agree with the NPOV concerns. This article is highly problematic and this is reflected in the bibliography. Vassyana 23:54, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Miracles is not the same issue
The main page includes:
- According to a Harris poll, 89% of Americans affirm that "Even today God performs miracles by his power."
This is not the same issue as the cessation of the extraordinary gifts listed in the NT. Even many cessationists do not deny that God can today work miracles, though others would classify such events as examples of extraordinary divine providence. The issue in cessationism is whether men and women of today have gifts that enable them to work miracles, such as healing, etc. DFH 09:24, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
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- This is hair-splitting. Warfield's definitive work of cessationism had a great deal of trouble articulating just what a "miracle" is. It seems to have been circular and might be expressed as: "A miracle is a remarkable event of divine proof which can rationally be identified that establishes, and therefore adds, new doctrine to the New Testament." Since no new chapters to the book of Jude are being added these days, it perforce follows that there can be no "miracles." Absurd as it is, this seems to be Warfield's position. See Ruthven, On the Cessation of the Charismata, 44-77.
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This claim doesn't even LOOK credible. 89 percent? Really? I vote for this line to be deleted unless the citation can be provided.
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Wrong poll cited. It's The Harris Poll® #11, February 26, 2003
http://www.harrisinteractive.com/harris_poll/index.asp?PID=359
The Religious and Other Beliefs of Americans 2003 Many people believe in miracles (89%), the devil (68%), hell (69%), ghosts (51%), astrology (31%) and reincarnation (27%)
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http://jeksite.org/psi/motivation.htm The most widely held beliefs about paranormal phenomena involve supernatural religious interpretations and are not included in these scales. In U.S. national surveys, 89% of respondents strongly or somewhat agreed that "there is a God who watches over you and answers your prayers" (Barna, 1991) and 82% agreed that "even today, miracles are performed by the power of God" (Gallup & Castelli, 1989). Measures that do not capture the most widely held beliefs may be of limited value in understanding the characteristics of paranormal beliefs.
[edit] The Puritans meant something different by the word Prophesying
The Puritans wrote extensively on all manner of subjects relating to the Christian faith, including some topics that touch on the modern debate about cessationism. It is important however to note that they often used the word Prophesying where today we would normally use the word Preaching. DFH 09:41, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
- Could you cite some sources for the above claim? Thanks--66.215.152.125 00:49, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit] This Article needs an opposing view section
There is no section for the opposing views in the article.
I agree. Also, there needs to be some reference to how Isaiah said that this would happen as a sign to the Jews for only a short time. Will reference later.
[edit] Weasel words
The sentence that includes "generally perceived to be in retreat" looks like weasel words to me. Perceived by whom? DFH 19:17, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Removed Cessationism Today
Preserved text:
Cessationism, however, is a doctrine that is generally perceived to be in retreat even among conservative and Evangelical Christians. Among theologians more to the left, cessationism is a non-issue. According to a Harris poll (#11, Feb. 2003), 89% of Americans affirm the reality of modern miracles. The explosive growth of charismatic Pentecostalism (those who believe and practice the so-called "extra-ordinary" or "miraculous" spiritual gifts), approaching one billion adherents world-wide, has largely undercut the appeal of cessationism.
I have been able to find no evidence that cessationism is "in retreat", especially among conservatives and Evangelicals. (Their continuing criticisms against continuationism and continuing revelation among the LDS, Pentecostals and others seems to contradict this assertion.) Belief in miracles is an improper measure. Do these people believe the miracles come from G-d? Do they believe in continuing revelation? Do these people believe they are gifts of the Holy Spirit? These are the kinds of questions that need to be asked to narrow the field of respondants to those who actually believe a contrary viewpoint. Additionally, the Pentecostalism article clearly shows the adherents figure to be overinflated by at least a factor of six. Overall, this is a Charismatic POV paragraph with highly inaccurate information and no sourcing except for a poll that is not even applicable due to the overly broad nature of the question. So, I removed it. Vassyana 23:44, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
In contradiction to the claims of "retreat", one of the external links (A look at cessationism from a non-cessationist POV) states:
"Most mainline Protestants, and nearly all Fundamentalists, are 'cessationists', whether they are fully aware of it or not."
Just pointing out the provided sources/links are not in harmony with the claims of the removed section.Vassyana 00:05, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
