Talk:Cerebus the Aardvark

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[edit] Cerebus #1

Wow, I owned #1, but I had to sell it several years back when I grew desparate for money. Never got what I thought it was worth. RickK 00:36, 23 Sep 2003 (UTC)

[edit] Keep Plot Summary brief and factual

I pulled some misogyny comments out of the plot summaries since they're commentary, not summaries of the plots. I tried to move the commentary (since it's widely believed) to other appropriate places.

I'd like to keep the summaries are brief and to the point as possible. Commentary (or more accurately, reporting on commentary) belong elsewhere, either in other sections on the page, or in sub-pages (probably on a per-book basis).

Similarlly, I'm not happy with the comments "Enjoyed by a number of fans as a return to the "earlier, funnier" Cerebus." in the summary of Guys. However, it might be a valid statement and might belong somewhere, just not in the summary.

Another option would be to massively expand the Plot Summaries section and have both a "Summary" entry for each book and a "Critical Reception". Or something. If we did that, we could integrate the ISBNs and issue numbers from the "Cerebus Collection" section. I'm not real fond of this, I like the terseness of the summaries, nice and to the point for people who need it, and easy to skip for people who already know.

Alan De Smet 19:48, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Flight summary added

Added a summary of Flight while flipping through my own copy to refresh my memory. I now understand why no one else had summarized. By all that is good, it's a boring freaking book... *sigh* Anyway, Women is next. Alan De Smet 02:35, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Deleted something ...

I took out "and perhaps the longest published work of fiction in the English language." I'm sorry, but the only person who's made that claim is Sim himself, and it's just obviously false. (Sim actually calls it the longest in human history, which is even more obviously false.) Just off the top of my head, Anthony Powell's "A Dance to the Music of Time" is more than 8,000 pages long. Of course, comparing page counts for prose and comics is kind of absurd, but without making that kind of comparison the 'longest ever' claim is meaningless.

Cerebus is a remarkable work in many ways, but that doesn't justify taking the author's braggadoccio at face value. 64.121.199.5

It's not even the longest work in comics. I think Lone Wolf and Cub runs over 9,000 pages---though less happens on each, since the format is much smaller. Other long prose works could include the Aubrey-Maturin series, which, if each book is 400 pages (an estimate based on a single sample point), makes 8,000 pages of prose. The mentally ill have written longer works; Henry Darger wrote an epic of 15,000 pages; Adolf Wölfli, 25,000. Still, Sim has, I think, created the longest single, cohesive work of comics in the English language written and illustrated by the same team, and certainly one of the most literate works in comics. Nothing to be sneezed at. (Oh, and you can sign your comments with ~~~~; I did it for you above.) grendel|khan 14:46, 2005 May 26 (UTC)

I deleted the recently added "with the intention of an epic tale ending with the death of the title character" from the opening paragraph. Sim did NOT begin with the intention of doing 300 issues. He didn't really have a long-term plan, although he has said that the possibility of doing something long-term was in the back of his mind. He has said that he didn't expect to be successful, but he knew he could do three issues and that would make a good "resume." His original announcement that he would do Cerebus for 26 years was made in 1979 after almost 2 full years of doing the comic bi-monthly, and even then he spoke of 152 issues. It wasn't until he went monthly in 1980 he settled on the 300 number. Steve Bolhafner 21:46, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Schizophrenia

I removed this verging-on-libelous sentence:

(He was also, around this time, reportedly diagnosed with borderline schizophrenia.)

I've never heard or read that anywhere. It wasn't added by a registered user. Please do not put back unless you can provide a source (even then, it should probably go under Dave Sim instead). —Chowbok 02:33, September 2, 2005 (UTC)

I did not add the sentence you quote above, but Dave was indeed diagnosed with borderline schizophrenia, he said so himself in his "Getting Riel" discussion with Chester Brown.:

"When I had my breakdown in ’79—when I was diagnosed as a borderline schizophrenic..."

As you state above, it should go under Dave Sim and not the Cerebus entry. —Meowwcat 18:55, September 3, 2005

[edit] Why was this removed?

"*The titles of books 8 through 11 could be read as a sentence (i.e., "women read minds, guys" - the concept of women reading minds is a key plot point)." Is this an inaccurate summary of Sim's intentions with his titles? Proteus71 15:24, November 1, 2005

Without a factual reference that says it was Sim's intention, it's just speculation. Wikipedia isn't a place for people to present their clever insights. Tverbeek 18:15, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

I'm not going to just do it, but I think we should consider putting this back in -- Sim's intention is really beside the point. Both of the facts in the removed sentence are absolutely true: books 8 through 11 are titled "Women Reads Minds Guys" and the concept of women reading minds *is* a key plot point, particularly in those books (the "real" Cirin, whose identity we don't yet know, reveals this to Cerebus in "Women" and the Norman Mailer character brings it up again in "Guys"). Whether Sim did it by a process of conscious deliberation or unconscious artistic choice or (if you must) it's a bizarre coincidence, it really is still relevant to a discussion of the work. Steve Bolhafner 22:05, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
If it was intentional, it's relevant. If it was subconscious, that may be relevant but it's unverifiable. If it's just a coincidence (and no, I don't find it all that "bizarre"), it's no more relevant than any other random happenstance that someone tries to staple some kind of meaning to. Include it if it's relevant and verifiable. Tverbeek 03:01, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
In Feature magazine winter 1997 interview with Dave Sim, Dave is quoted "Okay, it's now a day later and I'm compelled to confess an even larger example of adopting unbecoming tactics: to wit, The Flat Assertion Pregnant With Poisonous Implication. . .My reply was "Women Read Minds" which I choose to make a centerpiece of Mothers & Daughters..." (p. 19) Margaret 03:12, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
Which confirms that "women read minds" was a key plot point, but doesn't establish that this is why he titled those three or four books the way he did. Tverbeek 11:13, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
You're reaching. "I choose to make a centerpiece" -- I again assert that this makes the titles relevant even if they were UNCONSCIOUS on Sim's part. Surely you're not still maintaining that this might be a "coincidence." Three of the four titles that make up "Mothers and Daughters" comprise a phrase that Sim "chose to make a centerpiece" of that very novel (it's four books, but it's one novel). That is not a coincidence. Even unconscious and "accidental" moves by an artist that fit so perfectly with his expressed conscious intention must be considered relevant. Personally, I think it's absurd to continue to maintain that the absence of Dave Sim actually stating "Yes, I meant for the reader to look on his bookshelf and see that phrase" means that the above quote doesn't mean that that's exactly what he did. It certainly sounds to me like that's what he's talking about. But you have staked out a position, and refuse to budge. I actually believe he has said it that baldly somewhere, but I haven't found it yet.Steve Bolhafner 00:18, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
"I assert"? "It sounds to me"? Well there's your problem right there. Wikipedia is not a place for you to assert your opinions or impressions. The only "position" I've taken here is that Wikipedia content must be verifiable and factual. Which happens to be an official policy. If there's a source out there which states that Sim did this intentionally, or an independent analysis that argues that it's a meaningful, then put that fact in, with the appropriate reference (e.g. "Sim says..." or "noted Cerebus scholar So-And-So argues that...") But if the sole argument for including this clever bit of fan insight is the self-evident obviousness of it... then it doesn't need to be stated, does it? Tverbeek 02:33, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
Why discuss it ourselves when we can ask the man that knows? When I sent the Cerebus notebooks back to Dave, I asked him in a letter: "The titles to phonebooks 8 to 11 can be read together “Women Reads Minds Guys”. Was this done on purpose to emphasize your “The Flat Assertion Pregnant With Poisonous Implication” that was one of the center pieces of Mothers & Daughters or a “happy accident” (for lack of a better term)." His response: " "Women Reads Minds, Guys" was indeed the Flat Assertion Pregnant With Poisonous Implication that you suspected. A kind of billboard in the middle of the mammoth project hiding in plain sight. I'm surprised more people haven't caught that one." Margaret 23:31, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dave Sim/Cerebus

I think that this article contains too much gossipy talk about Sim. There is an entry for Sim and pertinent information can go there. I think that the 'Cerebus' article should be more about the comics rather than the author. There may be a place for some mentions of Sim here, but I don't think it ought to be as much about Sim as it currently is. Gregory Shantz 01:04, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

  • I agree and disagree. The information that's here is pertinent since so much of Sim's personal beliefs and views are integral to the content of Cerebus, but it needs to be re-written in a way that focuses on the comic rather than Sim himself. If I get time, I may take a stab at a major revision, but if someone beats me to it that's fine. Willbyr 12:25, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
Similar to how Robert A. Heinlein's Lazarus Long and related works were more tied in to his personal life and philosophy than, say, The Star Beast or Starman Jones. Understanding the author is, in the case of Sim and Cerebus, more important than in some less personal work. This is considered true of many other artists and their more famous works, such as Ayn Rand and Atlas Shrugged, Andy Warhol and his Campbell's Soup Can, or Frank Lloyd Wright and his buildings. Interestingly, this is also true of the real-life artists with cameos in Cerebus.
...and to a degree, The Marx Brothers, Keith Richards, and Mick Jagger. --BlueNight 07:02, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Beanhead

There was a note to the effect that Beanhead was borrowed by Bob Burden from Cerebus. Beanhead originates with Burden, although "Limbo" did appear in Cerebus magazines as a back-up feature. Added a note about the appearance of the Carrot in #108. 24.33.28.52 12:13, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Longest running series by single creative team?

While Cerebus is the longest running series by a single creative team, Larson's Savage Dragon is not #2. Stan Sakai's Usagi Yojimbo has been running non-stop since 1987. Though it's switched publishers (and therefore reset numbering) twice, there were no substantial gaps in publication and distribution. There have been 147 issues published to date, and the comic continues to be published 9-10 times per year (a little over a month per issue).

There are several Japanese comics from one author that are longer: Mitsuteru Yokoyama's "Three Kingdoms" which is 47 volumes long. Takao Saito's "Golgo-13" which is around 140 volumes long, also "This Is the Police Station in Front of Kameari Park in Katsushika Ward" is 130 volumes long. Let's just say the longest running English comic and leave it at that. - Cooper Holmes
Lone Wolf & Cub is over 8700 pages long and by a single team. And it is available in English. --Lalli 14:23, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The Little Aardvark Who Could...

I added a link to this massive online essay about Cerebus to the reviews section. I'm not sure what criteria is being used for adding links here, but I happen to know this work took about 18 months for the writer to put together (no it wasn't me) and it is equivalent of about 200 printed pages, covering every one of the major storylines with some interesting points of view. 23skidoo 13:31, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The magnifier

I've added in a bit about Cerebus's magnifier quality, but it's been too long since I've read the books to say exactly what it does aside from the info I've given. Please correct and expand as necessary. Willbyr (talk | contribs) 02:33, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

From what I can gather (original research!) as a reader and fan, Cerebus seems to act as a luck charm, affecting others' probability toward an extreme rather than an average. Victories are more tremendous, and defeats are more total. Cerebus himself is the plot device, the McGuffin.
After working with Weisshaupt, the Feldwar States are a potent political entity -- until Cerebus, as pope, turns against him for power and gold. He is a major threat to Cirin -- until his absence allows her to take over lower Estarcion. He amplifies the chauvinism (a word lacking in the article) of the men he gathers to take it back from the Cirinists -- until New Joanne finds her way into his bed, and his palace becomes an isolated fortress of impotent manhood. (Excuse the purple prose, talking about Sim does that to me.)
This effect also impacts the lives and careers of most people he comes into contact with. Astoria's political machinations are first enhanced, then crushed, then enhanced, then crushed. Rick Nash's schizoid break results in a Cerebus fixation that makes him first a prophet of Cerebus, and then a prophet of the heretofore-unmentioned God. His Jaka look-a-like lover, later known as New Joanne, and their son, Sheshep, build an empire, which is probably fated to rise to great prominence, and fall just as hard and fast.
Only Lord Julius seems unaffected by this. This is possibly a metaphor for money and bureaucracy winning out over might and magic, a variation on the tragedy of "the mundane over the sublime" symbology Sim claims (through Weisshaupt) is the overarching theme of the entire run. However, this could be the ultimate magnification, amplifying the tragedy of the mundane over the sublime to a national scale.
Overall, the magnification seems to be both a plot device to make interesting situations move much faster than they historically do, and a reflection on Sim's personal worldview on fate vs choice. --BlueNight 07:42, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Erik Larsen's "The Savage Dragon"

The article says that, as of 2005, Cerebus leads Erik Larsen's "The Savage Dragon" by 170 issues. Well, it's 2007--anybody know what the deal with Savage Dragon is? If it's still running, somebody ought to update the claim. Buck Mulligan 16:16, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

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