Talk:Central Serbia

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[edit] UZA or CENTRALNA; CENTRAL OR PROPER

Just for the record if you type

Google search
Uza Srbija 1,500 results
Centralna Srbija 6,480 results
Central Serbia 1,260,000 results
Serbia proper 110,000 results

Avala 13:33, 6 May 2004 (UTC)

This article was not written to discuss the geographic region of "Central Serbia" - it was written to discuss the English-language term "Serbia proper". Moving it to "Central Serbia" defeats the point. It's going back where it came from. -- ChrisO 18:09, 20 May 2004 (UTC)

That search doesn't actually prove the point you are trying to make, since you omitted the quote marks around the terms. This results in there being far more hits than Central Serbia than there should be - it is merely finding all pages with the word 'Central' on them, and the word 'Serbia' on them, not the term 'Central Serbia'.

Here is a real table, conducted using valid searches

"Uza Srbija" 602
"Central Serbia" 6,790
"Serbia Proper" 9,710
"Centralna Srbija" 721

Ooh, look which one won. Morwen 18:23, May 20, 2004 (UTC)

Centralna-721

Uza-602

??There are much less pages on serbian than english. Avala 12:57, 21 May 2004 (UTC)

Remember this is the English wikipedia, not the Serbian one. Morwen 14:20, May 22, 2004 (UTC)

yes it is

Avala 13:44, 23 May 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Moved from talk: Serbia

I see I missed most of this discussion, but it's never to late to try to shed some light on it. In socalist Yugoslavia, the area that we're trying to find an name for was known as uža Srbija (literally "narrower Serbia"). It was usually translated into English as "Serbia proper". The word "uža" in this contest could also be translated as "inner" or "central".

The term itself, which was originally considered neutral, has come into disrepute in Serbia, because it was perceived to somehow imply that the provinces are not properly Serbia.

I'll try to provide some background - through times, the name "Serbia" had several different meanings, some of which are still evident in the present usage.

The medieval core of the Serbian state was in Raška, SW Serbia and Kosovo. Those parts (especially Raška) are known as Stara Srbija or "Old Serbia".

During the ottoman rule, Serbia was considered to include the ottoman regions where Serbs lived, which would in those days include Kosovo, parts of Bosnia and Montenegro. In this frame of reference, the statement "Kosovo has always been a part of Serbia" makes sense. This sense was revived in the 1990's: I met a Serb from Doboj in Bosnia, who claimed that he was from Serbia. That is, of course, a very politically loaded statement.

When Serbia became independent again, the name Serbia got a new definition, meaning the Serbia of 1878 - no Kosovo, no Vojvodina. This is still widely felt in the usage today: Srbijanac ("Serbian" as opposed to "Serb", cf. Bosanac ("Bosnian") and Bošnjak ("Bosniac")) does not include Serbs from Bosnia, Croatia, Vojvodina or Kosovo. This makes the translation "Serbia proper" sound reasonable.

Later, Serbia grew larger and included Macedonia, which was known at the time as "Southern Serbia". Nationalists still like to refer to Macedonians as "Southern Serbs" (note, Južni Srbi - "Southern Serbs", not Južni Srbijanci - "Southern Serbians").

So what to do?

  • "Narrower Serbia" sounds horrible
  • "Central Serbia" is out of the question, because it already means something: the central region of Serbia, much smaller than Serbia minus provinces.
  • "Serbia proper" sounds reasonable to me (especially with its history of usage), but I can see the point of people who oppose it.
  • "Inner Serbia" could sound OK, but lacks precedents.

Should all of this be explained in the article? Zocky 21:54, 24 May 2004 (UTC)

I think that central serbia is the best. It is the term used today, it tells you in the moment where is it located(in central part between other provinces(Kosovo, Vojvodina). Inner Serbia sounds OK really but it is not much different from "central" except it doesnt say where is it located. The other thing is that nobody uses that term. Avala 19:45, 27 May 2004 (UTC)

Look, "central Serbia" ("centralna Srbija") simply means something else. My father's family is from Loznica which is in "uža Srbija", but it's also in western Serbia ("zapadna Srbija") and thus not in "centralna Srbija".
"Serbia proper" is just the common English name for "uža Srbija", even if it can be read to have negative connotations. I mean, should the French to stop using the name fr:Allemagne because it can be read to imply that Germany has rightful claim only to the land originally settled by the Alemanni? Zocky 23:26, 31 May 2004 (UTC)

I am confused. Western Serbia is part of Central Serbia, right? Also North(Sumadija), East and South. Central is not side of the world. But we can call it Central Serbia Proper. Huh it sounds a little bit stupid to me but I think it is OK. Avala 12:37, 1 Jun 2004 (UTC)

No, Western Serbia is not a part of Central Serbia, just as Western Europe is not a part of Central Europe. Zocky 17:33, 3 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Zocky 17:33, 3 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Zapadni deo centralnog dela zemlje. Na to sam mislio.

[edit] Merge two articles

Now, we ended up with two articles talking about the same thing –: Central Serbia and Serbia proper, and which should really be merged. Personally, I support Serbia proper because I don't find it politically incorrect, but we should discuss about it. The current solution is not appropriate though – it should be either one or another, but not both. Duja 09:38, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

There was discussion about this already. Article "Central Serbia" is about this region, while article "Serbia proper" is about use of the name "Serbia proper" in English language, not about region. PANONIAN (talk) 00:26, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

Second thing: if you still want to merge these two articles into one, then article "Serbia proper" should be merged into "Central Serbia". Central Serbia is the current official name of this region, while name "Serbia proper" is only a wrong English translation of the former name for this region "Uža Srbija". The correct English translation of this name would be "Narrow Serbia", not "Serbia proper". If some people were stupid to translate this name incorrect that does not mean that we should to use this name as a name of article about this region. By the way, name "Uža Srbija" was used during the time of Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, but it is not used any more. If we use this name or its wrong English translation for the article, that would be the same if we use name "Yugoslavia" for present day "Serbia-Montenegro". PANONIAN (talk) 00:39, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

So, Serbia proper would be only a former name of this region, thus I do not see why it should not have its own separate article. PANONIAN (talk) 00:44, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

I did read the previous discussion, but did not come to the same conclusions as you.
  • Where is "Central Serbia" "current official name of this region"? AFAIK nowhere. The region AFAIK does not even have a "current official name".
  • "Serbia proper" is pretty established phrase in English, also used for other places with similar situations, to distinguish the core state from exclaves and autonomies (e.g. "Russia proper"). The "correct translation" is not "Narrow serbia" – that is a literal translation and we don't translate word-for-word, don't we? AHD gives the following definitions for "proper":
4.a. Belonging to one; own. b. Characteristically belonging to the being or thing in question; peculiar. 5. Being within the strictly limited sense, as of a term designating something...8. Worthy of the name; true.
  • I also disagree that "Serbia proper" is a "former name of this region". This region never had an official name, and the term "Serbia proper" is still in use in English. The region has the same political status for 60 years, and "uža Srbija" is still used occasionally (although indeed less than before, for its perceived offensiveness). We should talk English here though.
I (and I think most people) would always parse the phrase "Central Serbia" as denoting mostly Šumadija, to distinguish it from western Serbia (Loznica), southern Serbia (Vranje) etc. I apprehend that "Serbia proper" can sound politically incorrect to some people, as it's parsable as "true Serbia", and I don't insist on it (although I don't agree with that ressentiment). But having the separate on article "Serbia proper" just to discuss political (in)correctness of the term is IMO silly. Duja 08:10, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

Well in official publications of the Serbian government this region is called "Centralna Srbija". So, it is a kind of official use of this name. In the past (during the existence of SFRY), the name "Uža Srbija" was used officially like this. English term "Serbia proper" is a English translation of the name "Uža Srbija", and it simply does not reflect the fact that usage of this name was changed in Serbia. Wikipedia certainly should to respect such change. Also, this google search could show that name "Central Serbia" is quite used in English:

PANONIAN (talk) 11:02, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Forked article not an option

Contrary to Panonian, I see nothing "settled" on this talk page, and furthermore, I suggest it's clearly not sustainable to have two articles on exactly the same topic, just to uphold one or other set of objections to terminology: see WP:FORK. I don't much mind which way 'round the merge happens, but merged they surely must be: please don't remove the tags again until this is settled one way or another. (Use "mergedisputed", if you must.) Alai 02:46, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

These ARE NOT two articles about same topic. One of these articles is about the region and another is about use of the name "Serbia proper" in English. But what ever, if you want to merge them, then you merge "Serbia proper" into "Central Serbia" but not otherwise. I will not accept POV and incorrect name "Serbia proper" as a name of the article about that region. PANONIAN (talk) 02:59, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Given the "modest" content of both articles, it's far from clear that they're scoped in the way you claim (much less that they should be), and certainly not that there's in any way enough distinct material to justify both. Panonian, your opinion on what the title of the merged article is noted, but statements of what you "will not accept" are not in the least helpful. Alai 03:27, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

BTW, on this whole "official name" thing: please see WP:NC(CN). Alai 03:29, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

The point is that name "Serbia Proper" is insulting for the inhabitants of Serbia who do not live in that region. I do not think that we should to use names which insult people. When I said that I will not accept it, it is because it insult me. You or somebody else may want to have this name for the article, but I have right to fight (through legal ways) to change it, of course. PANONIAN (talk) 03:34, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

I didn't want to push the merging issue above (read: I gave up), but I agree with Alai. To Panonian: I still fail to see why is the term "Serbia proper" "insulting for the inhabitants of Serbia who do not live in that region". I see it as projecting of term "uža Srbija" (which some find insulting indeed, which sentiment I attribute to the era of Milošević's raise) into English. It has little to do, though, with how English speakers call the land. (I don't know, I'm asking). Duja 14:19, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

The problem is that English name "Serbia Proper" is nothing else but a translation of the former Serbian name "Uža Srbija". And since you agree that name "Uža Srbija" is insulting for some, I do not have to explain why "Serbia Proper" is insulting too. "Serbia Proper" is a translation of one old Serbian name that is no longer in use because some found it insulting. Since the name was changed because of that, the English language should also to reflect such change. The name of "Yugoslavia" was also changed into "Serbia and Montenegro", and we do not use name Yugoslavia in English any more. Another examples are whether we will use in English name "Gypsy" for Roma people or name "Macedonian Slavs" for Macedonians. Both names, "Gypsy" and "Macedonian Slavs" are insulting, no matter how often they are used in English. "Serbia Proper" is a same thing. PANONIAN (talk) 19:05, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

But you didn't convince me that it's a translation -- you can Google "Russia proper", and find a quite similar situation to Serbian at China proper. It even says that "China proper" is a controversial concept and There is no direct translation for the term China proper in the Chinese language -- yet the article stands at "China proper". Second, even if some people find the term "Serbia proper" offensive, "Central Serbia" is even more inadequate. How do you call it in Serbian? Would you say that Vranje je grad u centralnoj Srbiji and not expect a strange look from the converser? WP:NOT#Wikipedia_is_not_censored states that "Wikipedia may contain content that some readers consider objectionable or offensive." If the traditionally used English term for the area is "Serbia proper", so be it. Duja 19:28, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

I don't know about "Serbia proper" being a translation of the term "Central Serbia" in Serbian. As far as I understand it, it seems to be a legacy of the period before 1912 when Serbia didn't yet rule Kosovo, Vojvodina or what's now Macedonia. Serbia at this time was (not exactly but close enough) confined to the geographical region that we now know as "Central Serbia". There is certainly an implication in the English usage that Kosovo and Vojvodina are additions to Serbia, rather than being an integral part of the country. I understand that some Serbians may find this offensive, but obviously I'm not responsible for how the term has been used! -- ChrisO 20:02, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
Aargh, you're now adding to the confusion :-). Panonian's statement was that the "Serbia proper" was translation of "uža Srbija" (lit. "narrower Serbia"), which I disagree with. As far as I know, "uža Srbija" itself was coined in SFRY, but the term went into disfavor when Serbs turned against 1974 federal constitution, which gave too much rights to the provinces.
Now, my point was that the term "Central Serbia"/"centralna Srbija", at least in Serbian language, does not denote the subject of the article, but rather Šumadija. I'm not 100% sure for English though. However, "uža Srbija" is not replaced with anything, and is still colloquially used Google. News and media often use "unutrašnjost" (inland) or just "Srbija", disambiguated by the context. If an average English speaker can deduce what "Central Serbia" is about without looking at the context, I'll be satisfied and shut up. Duja 21:24, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I did said that term "Serbia Proper" is a translation of "Uža Srbija". And here is proof: name "Uža Srbija" was never used before 1945 when Serbia with two autonomous provinces was created. This term was invented to designate part of Serbia that lie outside of the autonomous provinces. This name ("Uža Srbija") was used between 1945 and 1990, when it was replaced with term "Centralna Srbija". The English name "Serbia Proper" also could not to exist before 1945 because before this year, the region that could be designated with that name simply did not existed. So, it is quite obvious that "Serbia proper" is a English translation of the term "Uža Srbija" (or if not a pure translation, then at least English version of this name). Also, these terms "Russia proper" or "China Proper" are names of the groups of regions, not quite similar cases with "Serbia Proper". The important thing is that both names "Central Serbia" and "Serbia Proper" are used in English, so we simply discuss which of the two established English names we will use. But my point is, that who ever invented this term "Serbia Proper", he certainly had in front of him a map of Serbia from 1945 with three marked regions on it: "Vojvodina", "Kosovo" and "Uža Srbija". He obviously thought that name "Uža Srbija" could be best written in English as "Serbia Proper". We must ask this question: what would be if the name "Centralna Srbija" was used for that region from the beginning and if our English translator had another map with name "Centralna Srbija" written instead of "Uža Srbija"? Would he then also translate this as "Serbia Proper" or as "Central Serbia"?. As for the question about Vranje, yes it is in Central Serbia, check any government publication about this, for example this one:

The fact that from the geographical point of view, Vranje is in the south of Serbia is a different question. I think that most accurate definition of this is that Vranje is located in the southern part of Central Serbia. Also, if the traditionally used English term for the area is "Serbia Proper" that does not mean that we should to use it because term "Central Serbia" is also term established in English in the recent years. Should we also to use another traditional English names, like to use name Rodezia for Zimbabwe?

Also, by all means "Serbia Proper" is not legacy of the period before 1912, but of the period after 1945, no matter that borders of Serbia before 1912 were similar to the borders of present-day region because before 1912 that area was known simply as "Serbia", not as "Serbia Proper", "Central Serbia", etc. It is correct that Vojvodina and Kosovo were additions to Serbia in 1945 and that is why Serbian name "Uža Serbia" (similar as English "Serbia Proper") was used for the region, but after 55 years (in about 1990), some people came to understand that term "Uža Srbija" reflect only the situation from 1945, but not the current one, so the term was replaced with "Centralna Srbija". As for Šumadija region, it is the Central part of Central Serbia, but it is not Central Serbia. Term "Uža Srbija" is not used any more in the Serbian government publications, it might be still used unofficially by certain individuals, but I simply saying what is official and what is not. Here is the example: Maybe you would like to call the language you speak by some other name, but there is official name of that language used by the government, same thing with the name of the region. Also, English readers would easily know what "Central Serbia" is since they can to see that on the map posted in the article. PANONIAN (talk) 22:25, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Once again: wikipedia practice and guidelines are to use the common name (in English). Not to use the official name, or a name they can "easily know" what it is after looking at a map, or anything but the common name. Googling for the two gives a roughly equal number of hits, though it's clear that many references to "Central Serbia" (or indeed simply to "central Serbia") are in the sense that Duja suggests, not in the sense of this article. It would be preferable to have some information on what "reputable sources" (national and international organisations, news outlets, etc) use. Alai 02:11, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
  • Well, try also to see how many google hits you will find for "Gypsies" and "Roma people" key words. No matter how many google links are there, it would not be appropriate to name Wikipedia article about this ethnic group "Gypsies". I do not think that google hits are something on which we should base our naming policy. By the way, what about these google links for "Serbia Proper", which say: "that the proper approach to Serbia is to..." :) PANONIAN (talk) 00:26, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

I still disagree on several points, but I don't consider the matter so important to be pushed to death; we wasted too much energy to this discussion. We both made our points, and let's agree that we disagree. Not a big deal in any case. Regards, Duja 22:41, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, but I couldn't resist flogging the issue further:

Territories considered to be outside "Serbia proper" are Kosovo and Vojvodina. Within the Serbia it is generally accepted that those territories are just as much a part of Serbia as any other part of the country in every way. As a result, the concept of "Serbia proper" is seen as obsolete and redundant, if not downright offensive, as it implies that some of Serbia's territory is not as "proper", which can be used to justify separatism, a generally reviled idea. On the other hand, proponents of Kosovo, or Vojvodina separatism would support such a distinction, as they want to make clear the difference between the concept of "Serbia proper" and "Serbia", merely a political entity.

I assume you would agree with most of the statement above. You know what? I copied it from China proper word by word, then just replaced names. Duja 15:46, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Just to address Alai's point about "Serbia proper" dating to after 1945, not so; I've just done a quick search of an electronic database of the London Times and have found uses of this term dating back to 1915, e.g. "Serbia Proper Occupied", an editorial of 1916 about how the inhabitants of Bosnia, Croatia, Slovenia etc. yearn for "union with Serbia proper" (how times change!) etc. So clearly the term has a long usage in English. I'd guess that it was in use well before 1915, as the Times' writers evidently thought their readers would know what it meant. I don't have time to research this properly now - I'm actually on holiday at the moment - but I'll look into it when I get back home. -- ChrisO 16:31, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

I assume you mean Panonian's point, as I didn't make such a claim. Note, however, that what was meant by "Serbia proper" was very likely to be significantly different, as were the borders of the then kingdom of Serbia. (Not to mention there being the small matter of a war on at the time, or indeed previous principalities, voidvodships, and what not prior to that.) Alai 21:41, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

I do not doubt that term "Serbia Proper" could be used as early as 1915, but in that time that name was obviously used for this region:

That have nothing to do with the region about which our article is. But here is the real question: should we then restore separate "Serbia Proper" article and wrote there about usage of this name from 1915 to the present-day as a name of different regions during the history? PANONIAN (talk) 00:17, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

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