Talk:Caul
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[edit] Caul vs. Amniotic Sac
This article contradicts itself. At the bottom it says the caul is also called The Veil but then it says "Not to be confused with the remnants of the amnion or birth sac" which is exactly the definition previously given for caul.
So does the folk tradition hold that these are two different things? I'm confused.
I came to the same conclusion as the above unsigned comment, and I added the "contradict" template. I entered "amnion" in the Wikipedia search field and it redirected to "amniotic sac", exactly what the caul is supposedly made of. Art LaPella 03:10, 24 September 2005 (UTC)
"Not to be confused..." is the contradictory sentence that should be removed; the rest of that paragraph is redundant. I removed both to make the article self-consistent. B.Wind 10:04, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
- The article still contradicts itself: "A caul ... is a thin, filmy membrane, the remnants of the amniotic sac," in the first paragraph, and "A distinction needs to be made in relation to the birth caul and the adhesion of the birth (amniotic) sac to the face or head of a child at birth. The birth caul, more usually just called a caul, is a complete membrane covering the face of the child. The amniotic sac, or amnion, is another completely different kind of membrane" later. For what it's worth, the second description is the understanding I always had while growing up, but I've haven't any medical references for it. As for folklore, as a caulbearer myself I was told it meant I would be a werewolf. Again for what it's worth, though -- the only reference is my own memory, and I don't even remember whether it was my grandmother herself who said it or my mom who said it was what my grandmother said! Then again, for "folklore", is there a better reference than the folk?--Bedawyn 16:56, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
Okay, I've added the Expert tag in the hope that someone who actually knows whereof they speak can clarify this with references. My understanding -- from years of reading off and on about cauls but with no obstetric training -- is that many babies are born "en caul", with remnants of the amniotic sac that can be wiped off. A few babies are born "with a caul", a membrane that covers the face and has folklore attached to it. I don't know whether this is medically part as the amniotic sac or not, but what makes it special in folklore is not its physiological origin but its position as an unruptured veil, and the term "caul" in common usage (not medical terminology) refers only to the facial veil. It seems sensible to me that modern Western doctors would make no distinction between a veil and (other) amniotic remnants, while folklore makes a very large distinction. But as we all know, the world is rarely sensible, so I'd very much appreciate it if someone with obstetric training could let us know whether there is in fact a difference between the two types of membrane (regardless of whether Western medicine considers the difference important or not).
On a related note, I believe the text "The birth caul cannot be wiped off the child's face but must be carefully peeled off" is also referring to folklore rather than medical fact, but have no source for that. That is, I don't know whether a true caul can be wiped off or not, but I know folklore says it shouldn't be just wiped off, but should be carefully removed and preserved.--Bedawyn 23:20, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Famous People
Are there any famous people who were known or rumored to be born with a Caul?
[edit] Caulbearer
I merged the caulbearer article and redirected it here because I don't think a separate article is necessary. Also, this article already discussed the legends. I just put the material in a new section rather than fully integrating it because the information should be verified by a reliable source. -- Kjkolb 05:48, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Sources
For lack of any better sources, I've added the public-domain Dickens quote and a couple of web links, one for medicine and one for folklore. Both are brief, but I suppose better than nothing. For the record, I do not consider the caulbearer.org site a reputable source, as it's promoting a particular ideology and gives no other primary or secondary cites for its information on cauls (although the information itself either agrees with or does not contradict what I always thought of as common knowledge). On the other hand, as a caulbearer myself, I found the site's existence mildly entertaining, so perhaps it has its value as a web link. It just makes me twitchy to see it as the only link and the only thing on the page remotely resembling a source. (I also moved the unsigned Christy Moore bit down here to keep the amnion vs. caul discussion clearer.)--Bedawyn 23:20, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
'Caul' shows up in the song 'sixteen fishermen raving' on the recent Christy Moore album: 'sixteen fishermen raving, each carrying his own caul, they believe it will keep death away as they face the angry squall'
I do not understand what is meant by the line "In a northern light, a baby is born with a caul."
Another literary reference: In "A Tree Grows in Brooklyn" by Betty Smith, the main character, Francie Nolan, was born with a caul.
[edit] the birth caul
does anyone have info on the history of the birth caul,i have a friend who claims to have a birth caul,said to be lucky charm for sailors.any idea what theyre worth?
From what I've heard of it from grandparents and other older relatives the caul should never be sold, damaged or given away, but rather kept by or for the person who was born with it. You might find that the caul is sometimes called the birth veil.
[edit] Quotes
In August someone added the quotation marks to the Dickens quote -- is that standard Wikipedia style? It's not proper formatting in general -- quoted text should be given quotation marks or block-indented, but not both. If I'd seen Wikipedia recommend both, I'm sure I'd have complained before and remembered it, but I haven't time to hunt up the style pages now. If no one else fixes it sooner, at least this note will remind me to look it up when I have the time later. On the other hand, my copyeditor's heart is screaming at leaving it as is, especially given how disproportionately huge the curly quotes are, so I'll go ahead and fix it now. If you have time to look up the style guides and they recommend using both, feel free to revert and I'll take it up with the style folks when I have time.--Bedawyn 00:26, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] what does it mean in the bible
what does it mean in the bible Leviticus 3:4 and the caul above the liver,? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 146.235.66.52 (talk) 14:36, 19 March 2007 (UTC).
