Talk:Caterpillar, Inc.

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Contents 1 Specification of Controversy 2 What the !@#$? 3 Sad 4 Notable Products

[edit] Specification of Controversy

I changed

Caterpillar has been the target of protests because of the use of its products by Israel for land clearance in the occupied territories of Palestine.

to

Public protests have called on Caterpillar to cease sales of its products to Israel because of their use for punative home demolition and land clearance in the occupied territories of Palestine.

Because the protests are not against caterpillar as a business or a business model but calling on them to exercise corporate responsibility as per their own corp resp statement "Our responsibility as a global citizen is to enhance the lives of our neighbors around the world" or "We strive to ensure that our success as a corporation contributes to the quality of life of all people touched by our business..."

It's fairly obvious that Cat can't control what someone does with their machinery once it's sold, however, CAT can be expected not to sell their machinery if they have demonstrated evidence of what it will be used for and they don't want their coroporation to be associated with those actions. Now if you agree with this or not, whatever, that's not the issue. I was changing for clarity.

Next, I added "punative home demolition" to land clearance. Land clearance strikes me as odd phrasology bc land clearance doesn't describe why it's an issue. To my knowledge no one has a problem with israel clearing boulders, trees, etc, the issue is clearing land that is already occupied by people against the will of those people. I chose punative home demolition because that's the term the IDF and Amnesty use, it seems the most NPOV. I also linked to an exhaustive report by amnesty which calls those acts war crimes. However I did not put that part in the article because I think it would just cause a ruckus with people. I also linked to the report to cite my sources for all the people who think home destruction is tinfoil hat nonsense. TitaniumDreads 10:41, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

Thank you for your edits and explanations, TitaniumDreads. I think you have worded the section more clearly, and more fairly. One suggestion is to use reference tags instead of external links embedded in the text. see: WP:CITE. Keep up the good work. — Fudoreaper 04:59, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

Is this page about Caterpillar machinery or the Israeli-Palestine conflict?

Its a page about the company, and coporate governence is usually a important issue. GraemeLeggett 10:14, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Where are the so-called protests? Cat has bigger problems with their labor union, but this is not mentioned in the article. Is this controversy a sufficiently big deal for it to comprise the bulk of the article? Friday 28 June 2005 07:09 (UTC)

(in response to being asked for a section on labor disputes) I don't think the labor disputes are particularly noteworthy. Any large company will have people protesting occasionally. Are we going to write about every one? Judging from whoever the original commenter was above, more people than just me think the controversy section is already way overblown. Of course, I did some internet searching, this is something that some people are concerned about. So maybe it's relevant. Still seems strange that it's the biggest part of the article, though. Friday 28 June 2005 18:41 (UTC)

Its the biggest part ofg the article only because more has been written about it than anything else. Adding something about four year dispute would even things up. British Leyland was famous for its strikes and News International, and British coal mines for picketing. GraemeLeggett 28 June 2005 21:01 (UTC)

I shortened things up. I think it still tells the whole story. Details are probably better located in Jewish Voice for Peace anyway. It seemed silly to have only one subsection in controversies. Friday 30 June 2005 02:42 (UTC)

---

Who cares about someone using Cat products to bulldoze someone else's house? It wasn't Cat who put the guy in the driver's seat.

[edit] What the !@#$?

Whoever keeps saying that Cat has begun to manufacture clothing and shoes is an idoit. Cat has licensed it's logo to clothing and shoe companies - it doesn't make its own.

Furthermore, who gives a !@## about the use of Cat products in Israel? In fact, who cares about Israel?

• For the sole point that it is newsworthy. The issue comes up at their boardmeetings and someone even died bringing it to the worlds attention. We're just interested in the facts as they relate to the company. --Hooperbloob 20:18, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

• So, you'd rather blame a company for making a product than blame the people who use the product to destroy. Lots of new-worthy topics come up during board meetings. I don't suppose you care, though do you? Cat has facilities in almost 1/3 of the world's countries, you can't possibly be saying that the only noteworthy controversy is about Israel? Unless, of course, you're a Jew or a Palestinian. You probably believe everything you read in the papers and see on TV - not realizing that only one point of view is being expressed. You might as well only read the National Enquirer. I only hope with a mind as small and narrow as yours, you’re not a voting American.

I happen to agree that blaming the toolmaker for evils done with the tools is short-sighted and foolish. However, we're not here to write an op-ed piece; last I looked, this was meant to be an encyclopedia. Relevant policies here include WP:NPOV and WP:CIV. Friday 16:09, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

Well, if you are aware of other newsworthy items to include in the article then by all means, please expand it. A section on the lengthy labour strike might be a good addition. --Hooperbloob 16:52, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

• I've added a very general section under the Controversy heading about the labor pains of the 1980's and the environmental pains. Thanks for the suggestion Hooperbloob. I didn't have much time to do a lot of research, just going off of memory. I'll refine it later. --Robotel 16:44, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Sad

Sad to see so much vandalism and hate on a page. I've deleted the comments by the unknown author, as well as Hooperbloob's level-headed responses simply because there is too much hate in the discussion. I hope you don't mind, Hooperbloob.

This was a page about a company, right? Not about religion wars?

In any light - I've reverted the page back to how I re-wrote it several weeks ago. I hope next time I check it out it'll be somewhat the same. --Robotel 14:55, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

I had reverted it to the version prior to your edits because of some suspicious sentences. This one in particular: "The story of Caterpillar Inc. dates back to the late 19th century, when Daniel Best and Benjamin Holt were experimenting with ways to fulfill the promise that steam tractors held for farming."

It shows up on "I'm too lazy and unethical to write my own essay" sites in the intro of their essays about Cat. Some other bits and pieces tend to pop up in various places, but that's the one that triggered the revert in the first place. -- Cyrius|✎ 20:58, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Notable Products

Just a question, why make links to pages that don't exist? There are hundreds of products made by Caterpillar, so unless the "notable products" becomes a pure list of everything, I think it should only go to pages that have content.