Talk:Cat flap

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This article was nominated for deletion on August 12, 2006. The result of the discussion was keep. An archived record of this discussion can be found here.

Contents 1 Image 2 Isaac Newton 3 Requested move 3.1 Voting 3.2 Discussion 3.3 Terms from the leading manufacturers of the devices--both UK-based 3.4 A compromise: pet flap 4 page content 5 cat owner cultural difference UK/US 6 territorialism 7 unencyclopedic 8 Cat flap vs. pet flap 9 Requested move 9.1 Voting 2 9.2 Discussion 10 yeah, I know it seems that you've gone over this 11 Requested Move, again 11.1 Voting 3 12 There is being bold and there is vandalism 13 Proposed move 14 The proposed move to Door Flap 15 Please don't feed the trolls 16 Homer Simpson 17 terminology 18 Proposed move 19 damn issue of terminology 20 Authorative source on Newton 21 worldview and pov 22 keep it Cat Flap 23 fixed 24 % UK cats outside

[edit] Image

The cat flap shown in the image seems to be installed too high. Our article quite rightly says "slightly lower than the cat's belly"... Can we have an image of a correctly installed cat flap, please? Lupo 06:52, September 7, 2005 (UTC)

Agreed, but it is the only catflap I have. I couldn't set it lower as it would weaken the frame of the door. In truth the cats don't mind it that much, but a better picture would be welcome. -- Solipsist 07:08, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

I'll see what I can do, but don't hold your breath. I put mine lower, indeed cutting into the frame, but since that is several inches thick in my door, it didn't matter. My door looks quite battered, though, not as clean as yours. Lupo 07:57, September 7, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Isaac Newton

It is pretty well established that Isaac Newton invented the cat flap. I think it is mentioned in several of his biographies and there is an example shown in Grantham museum (the town near Newton's birthplace). However, we could use a well sourced reference. At the moment the statement looks a little tacked on.

There is also anecdotal discussion that he invented it to avoid having to open the door for his cat whilst doing optics experiments (which is plausible, and presumably to avoid loosing dark adaptation). And further that when his cat had kittens, he installed three more extra-small cat flaps which seems less plausible. -- Solipsist 07:17, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

I was a little more skeptical, and changed the wording. A rather intense google campaign could not turn up any sources, or description of why people think this is the case (and all of the sort of reputable .edu sources are careful to say "reputed", etc.) Of course, Cat Fancy would have you believe otherwise. :) If you know of a particular biography where this is alleged, we should include it. Sdedeo 00:05, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

Well you shouldn't be too skeptical. I also thought all the web references were pretty rubbish, but I don't think it is just anecdotal. As mentioned above, the Newton - Cat flap connection is displayed in the local museum and I suspect it was also mentioned in Woolsthorpe Manor itself, although I don't recall seeing an original cat flap in any of the doors there - possibly few of the doors are original. Most of their furniture was genuine for the period, but not original.

However I would also like to find a more reliable reference from one of the Newton biographies. Unfortunately the copy of Westfall (ISBN 0521274354) that I read (some years ago) was from the library, so I can't check it easily. I've tried asking on Talk:Isaac_Newton, but so far no one has bothered to look up a reference. It is still possible that there is no documentary evidence recorded in Newton's papers. -- Solipsist 08:34, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

One has to be careful. The story is so cute and colorful that I think many otherwise careful people would be inclined to report it; as the story gets passed from source to source the "reputed" and "legendary" qualifiers get dropped. But if it's in an (academic) biography, we should definitely include it (and also reference the source.) Sdedeo 21:30, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

Well I've had a chance to look at the Westfall book now, and there is no mention of cats or cat flaps in the index. I also scanned through the chapter on Newton's childhood at Woolsthorpe and although it mentioned a number of inventions and models that he made, they didn't include cat flaps.

I also had a more cursory look through the chapter on optics. Newton returned to Woolsthorpe to avoid the plague in 1665/66 and was experimenting with optics around that time and I would guess that this is the most likely time for the invention (assuming the annecdote is true). Some of the unsourced online references mention that Newton invented the cat flap to avoid his cat disturbing him during optics experiments (this makes sense, both in terms of Newton's character and to avoid loosing dark adaption). However, by this point Westfall is totally absorbed in discussing the physics and there is little comment on other aspects of Newton's life until much later chapters. -- Solipsist 15:50, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

This book reporedly asserts it. — Matt Crypto 10:26, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move

[edit] page content

Hi. Two things: 1) Obviously most of the discussion on this talk page has been about the article's name, and a US/British English split has emerged. But occasionally, in the course of that discussion, I've come across hints that there may also be an actual difference in US/British pet treatment. (Full disclosure: I am American; my family has a dog and a cat and no pet door for either — we are bad humans and have never trained either pet well enough to trust it outside.) Some British editors have painted a picture of a world where cats are allowed great freedom while dogs are kept under human control. I have no data or evidence to the contrary, but some hints in posts by other editors, as well as my limited knowledge of American pop culture (the dog running free in the yard is a staple, for instance, of comic strips), make me wonder whether the picture they're painting might be a local, not universal, one. Doops | talk 18:35, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

Well, it's certainly a pretty universal picture in Britain. I've very rarely encountered any family who kept their cat inside - most British cats are allowed to go where they please and most British people would consider it extremely odd to confine a cat to the house. Almost every family with cats either has a cat flap or leaves a window ajar for the cats to get in and out. Dogs, on the other hand, are not usually allowed outside the garden except on walks (the majority of British houses have a walled or fenced back garden). The only normal exception would be farm dogs, who are usually allowed to roam freely. -- Necrothesp 00:36, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

I don't understand. If the majority of houses have a walled or fenced back garden, why do they not have a dog flap (or whatever you like to call it) in the back door for the dog to use? Doops | talk 04:46, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

I would suspect that most people would think, if a dog can get in (let's say labrador sized), then so could a burglar. Trust me, dog doors are extremely uncommon, in Britain. Jooler 11:51, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

Indeed. Of course the only one I saw was locked at night or if nobody was in the house, and was in a very rural situation. Probably 100's of cat flaps and 0-1 dog flaps in your average small British town, SqueakBox 14:29, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

Indeed that is the English custom, see below. Hence the British custom should be adopted because it is far more of a British tyhing, and the cultural differences (that seem enormous) should be mentioned, SqueakBox 01:08, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

Because most British dogs would require rather more than a small flap to fit through. More like a door split in two horizontally. - SoM 13:58, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

The dog flap I saw in Wales was enormous, and still only the smaller Cocker Spaniel of the 2 dogs could use it, the full size poodle couldn't. My dog who used to escape through the cat flap was a bit of a Houdini of the dog world, SqueakBox 14:11, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

Yup. Our (large) springer spaniel managed to get through the cat flap on a couple of occasions, but only when she was very frightened by something outside and pulled off an enormous feat of escapology - we never worked out how she did it. The British are fond of big dogs - try getting a labrador or alsatian through a flap in the door! Also, most British people wouldn't like their dogs coming in and out of the garden as they chose - Britain is a wet country! Cats don't seem to make so much mess. -- Necrothesp 11:27, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

2) Here is Jooler's version of the opening ¶: A cat flap is a hinged flap set into a door or a window to allow a cat to enter and exit a house on its own without needing a human to open the door. Cats are independent creatures who like to come and go when they please. Some smaller dogs can use cat flaps and larger similar devices are also available for dogs to use, but as dogs generally usually require more human attention when out of doors such devices are far less common. The broader term pet door may be used to encompass both devices. It seems glaringly obvious to me that this is not encyclopedic in tone. It makes blanket assertions with no support, and it appears quite plainly to be written by a cat-fancier. I'm usually quite good at writing bits of articles to make them more NPOV; but here my attempts were greeted by laughter. Obviously the ideal course is right down the middle; but I think it's better to err on the side of a wishy-washy encyclopedia with too many weasel words rather than the side of a reckless encyclopedia which isn't trusted. Another point: as long as "doggie door" and "pet flap" redirect here, this article is about them too and they should be in the first sentence. Finally, I just have to vent my frustrations at the fact that I tried to make a compromise wording and was reverted 100%. That is not good community spirit. Doops | talk 18:35, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] cat owner cultural difference UK/US

Ok I have to say, that before I came to this page. I had no idea about this, but it appears to be true, that there is indeed a different culture to the keeping of domestic cats in the US and the UK. I found the following page which describes the situation fully. - http://www.messybeast.com/indooroutdoor.htm - see also http://www.messybeast.com/ukcats.htm Jooler 20:45, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for that. I had no idea US culture was like that, keeping many cats indoors all the time, and rescue agencies insisting on it for rehoming. Keeping to the point, does this not mean that cat flaps are a rarity in the US? as Americans don't want to give their cats the freedom and independence that a cat door gives to cats, SqueakBox 23:11, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

That's right, SqueakBox, Americans don't want to give their cats freedom and independence. They're vicious sadists, really. :) Doops | talk 04:47, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

Concomitant with the question of whether there are fewer cat flaps in the US is the question of whether there are more dog doors. Data, anyone? Doops | talk

as per google, there are far far more- [3]Joeyramoney 10:02, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Hey, chill out Doops! I never said Americans are vicious sadists (in that your country is no different from every other in the world, ie there are some but not many). I merely stated the door gives that freedom and independence. It appears the US is more dangerous outside for cats, both due to natural predators and that there is a much greater hunting culture and young kids can get hold of guns so easily. It appears both American and UK cat owners tend to condem the cultural differences of the other country, which is not a good thing. The reality is there are far fewer dog flaps per se, so whether there are also more in the UK or the US is not really relevant to the naming of this article, SqueakBox 13:36, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

Um, it was a joke. I was just teasing you because you wrote "don't want to give their cats the freedom" instead of using neutral language; but I wasn't trying to suggest that this was intentional on your part. As for the dog doors, I think that if they are more common in the US than you and Jooler realize, then that is indeed relevant both to the titling of the article and even more so to its content — which is, at present, still written in Jooler's rather (in my view) unencyclopedic terms. Doops | talk 17:47, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

Cool. We definitely need plenty of humour here. By all means bring any evidence about US habits in this area and we can go from there, SqueakBox 18:33, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

I don't know about the US but in Calgary we don't let the cats out very much because:

(a) there are bylaws which mean that you may be prosecuted if your cat digs up other people's gardens and the city trace it back to you;

(b) cats that go out at night often don't come back: there are animals round here like cougars and coyotes that eat cats.

So if you want your cat to have a long life, you buy a litter tray and keep it inside... -- Derek Ross | Talk 23:42, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] territorialism

Hi. I am very annoyed at the territorialism of certain editors of this page. I accept that there was no consensus to move and so the page will remain here under this name. That does not give the move-opposers ownership of the page and the ability to veto any changes made by erstwhile move-supporters. So long as dog door and pet door redirect here, the article has to be written in a way that reflects that fact.

However, I believe in not acting rashly, and so I've avoided the page for a couple of weeks so I could come back with a fresh mind. Today I looked at the article as I found it and did the best job I could of revising it. A glance at the edit history will show that my changes were evenhanded and in no way pugnacious. Wholesale reversion of good faith edits is not what the Wikipedia is about. Doops | talk 21:36, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

I don't see how the passage of a week or two makes any difference. Earlier you put up for dicussion on this page the text that you objected to and asked for comment. No comment was passed, you might think there fore that there was no other objection; and yet you decide to destroy this version and yet again revert a variation on your version. Pray tell me, how do you characterise this as a compromise? As long as this article is entitled cat flap, describes the invention of the cat flap and is illustrated by a cat going through a flap it should talk about cat flaps and then elaborate about far far less common variations for other creatures. Jooler 07:53, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

I often find that taking a step back helps me to look at things freshly and more objectively; that's why I took a week or two away from the article.

yet you decide to destroy this version and yet again revert a variation on your version. Um, no. Please take a look at the edit history; my first edit to this page since November 16 was in fact cleaning up after an anonymous editor (User:169.157.229.67) who had taken this article quite far away from your favored version. In cleaning up his/her edits, I actually (among other things) *moved the alternate names into parentheses* and *restored mention of feline independence* and *changed an instance of "pet door" to "cat flap"*. All three of these may in fairness be said to have moved the article in a Jooler-like direction. Not all the way to your favorite version, of course; but a compromise. (Note: it is doubtless true that my compromise today is similar to the one I proposed several weeks ago. But I absolutely did not go back in the history today to consult my old version; that would defeat the whole purpose of taking a break. I honestly was writing fresh.) Then User:SoM revised me; and I revised him/her; and we had a nice little collaboration going. Hence my frustration.

As for the issue itself -- pet door and doggie door redirect here. And these are (as many of the anti-move voters commented) just alternate names for the same basic thing. Sure, maybe the details of implementation are different; but the same at heart. So what's so terrible about a simple, direct, unflustered opening which gives "cat flap" precedence without relegating the alternative terms to second-class citizen status? Doops | talk 09:42, 2 December 2005 (UTC), substantially revised Doops | talk 11:37, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] unencyclopedic

Sigh. The unencyclopedic personal opinions are back again — authors waxing poetic about cats & dogs and the differences between them, making blanket *assertions* about their nature. We've got the unsourced "very much rarer" statistic again too. For now, let me content myself with pointing out that the word "ablutions" is being used wrong. OK, toodles for now (I've got to dash off to a doctor's appointment and I have to perform my ablutions — i.e. take a shower — first.) Doops | talk 16:33, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Fixed, I hope. Doops | talk 00:33, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Cat flap vs. pet flap

Any pet can use a it, so it doesn't belong at cat flap. Please don't be stupid and move it to cat flap when any pet can use the door. Robin Williams 01:57, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

We had this discussion at ludicrous length a couple of months ago. Mark^{your words} 15:05, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

Please tell me what logic there is at having this at cat flap rather than pet flap. Saying this article should be at cat flap rather than pet flap is plain stupidity. Any pet can use the opening. Are you not aware of that or something? Robin Williams 15:15, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

Please tell me what logic there is at coming in and moving this without agreement. Ignoring the previous history of this article is plain stupidity. You can't make a page move stick without consensus. Are you not aware of that or something? -- Derek Ross | Talk 23:49, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately, we are unlikely to get a reply. The User:Robin Williams has been permanently blocked for trouble on other page moves and username problems. -- Solipsist 07:13, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Ah. Oh well, it was intended as a rhetorical device to show him the inappropriateness of his comment, anyway. So it doesn't really need a reply. A permanent block seems pretty harsh though... He must have caused a fair bit of disruption. -- Derek Ross | Talk 04:28, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Oh, it was because of his user name too. I see. -- Derek Ross | Talk 04:32, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] yeah, I know it seems that you've gone over this

but "Cat flap" just doesn't work. to be honest, i have never even heard that term in my life. i suggest moving it to pet door or dog door, as the latter gets far more google hits- [5]. if you're going to use a term everyone actually uses, "dog door" quite obviously works much better, and that is the term i have always heard. i'm not sure why people are making a big deal over this. edit- what the hell? this does not even warrant a discussion on the matter! okay, one more they're about equal. it seems that "cat flap" is actually the worst possible title for this article. i propose that it is moved to "pet door" or "pet flap", and we add a picture of a dog door, and elaborate on them a bit, since this article seems to be geared towards cats, when dog doors are more notable, at least on the internet.Joeyramoney 09:47, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

There's been enough debate on this already, but to answer your question about "why people are making a big deal over this", I'd encourage you to think outside of your own experience. For many people, "cat flap" is the term they've always heard, "cat flap" quite obviously works much better, and they have never heard "dog door" in their lives. — Matt Crypto 10:11, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

did you see the google links? it is not often used. most people, it seems, use another term. no, "cat flap" does not obviously work much better. it is easier to just use pet door or something like that and get on with our lives. Joeyramoney 10:32, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

I was addressing your argument from your personal experience, but this is a dead horse, and not worth flogging. Reread the above discussion (and if you want to use Google results, use quotation marks like this: [6]). — Matt Crypto 10:38, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

There will be many terms you have never heard of in your life, you know. That does not make them invalid :) The term "Cat Flap" is widely used. But the whole discussion is ludicrous. Leave it as one or the other, redirect the one it isn't to the one it is and perhaps move on? Life's too short to get into a flap about this flapdoodle. Fiddle Faddle 10:12, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

well, my point is that the majority of people, at least on the web, use another term. it's easier to use something like "pet door" and just move on. there is no reason to keep it at cat flap. Joeyramoney 10:32, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

• Good Grief Why not vote on whether to have a new vote before voting on the vote? Fiddle Faddle 11:28, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

too much voting. Joeyramoney 11:32, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

You do realise that no-one has to vote on this re-proposal. It was a very short time ago it was settled. This vote and counter vote flapdoodle will just lead to page protection in the end. Far better to ignore it, settle on the previous resolution, and get on with enhancing the article. We could, I suppose, also call it a burglar door. Fiddle Faddle 11:47, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Haha, such a flap about cat flaps --Aimaz 12:06, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] There is being bold and there is vandalism

The move of the page wignored any consensus, was draconian and high handed. The fact that this was ignored means I cannot easily Assume good faith. I have no idea how to revert this, however. Do we need an admin? Fiddle Faddle

Moved back due to no consensus. I've taken the liberty of reverting the other changes too. - FrancisTyers · 12:46, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Proposed move

Cat flap → Door flap. It's basically a flap built into a door. The door can be used for any pet. You all obviously find it very difficult to understand that. It's surprising how many stupid Wikipedians there are. Helicoptor 12:54, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one sentence explanation and sign your vote with ~~~~

• Oppose move obviously, as cat flap is by far the best known term for this. We don't decide what words should be used, we just report what common usage is, and I've never heard the term "door flap" before. Also, I would point out that comments like "It's surprising how many stupid Wikipedians there are" are unlikely to make people come round to your way of thinking, and could ultimately get you blocked by some admins (although not by me, I find you hilarious). — sjorford++ 14:44, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose: One of the cat flaps pictured in the artcle is a flap built into a wall. Pet door might be better name. --Silvestre Zabala 21:02, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose, although I agree with your last point. — Matt Crypto 13:48, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The proposed move to Door Flap

This is a blatant nonsesne. It has been proposed by the person who moved the page unilaterally with no consensus. The proposal was made after it was, correctly moved back. This is a total waste of time.

For the record:

Strong oppose Fiddle Faddle 12:54, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

No the moving back was not correct. Non neutral terms are wrong on Wikipedia. That's why fire fighter and mail carrier are not at fireman and mailman. That's why it's world government and not western government Helicoptor 12:56, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

• When a vote is taking place a unilateral move is tantamount to vandalism. the word "cat" is neutral, by the way. Fiddle Faddle 13:02, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

No it's not. It only refers to cats, while the flap can be used for any pet. Just like world government is at that title because it refers to the whole world. It would be stupid to have that article at western government and include the whole world, just like it's stupid to have this article at cat flap and include other pets. Helicoptor 13:03, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

• Regardless, your move of the page, unilaterally, while a discussion was in progress, was tantamount to vandalism. There is no way you can justify such a move, especially since the talk page hre in the latest pointless ballot in this topic was majority opposed. As a wikipedia editor you have rights and responsibilities. The right is to make edits and to be bold. The responsibilities are to make edits in accord with community consensus. It is also very close to personal attacks to accuse many of your fellow editors of being stupid (above). Fiddle Faddle 13:09, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Please don't feed the trolls

It should be noted that Helicoptor and a suspected sockpuppet are the sole supporters of a similar bit of nonsense it trying to move the aluminium article. The next time someone tries to move this article with little or no justification, it is worth remembering that trolls lurk in these parts. -- Solipsist 19:28, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

• Could we create a Troll Flap? Fiddle Faddle 19:44, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Homer Simpson

Homer Simpson once tried to fit through a cat flap and got stuck.--Taida 02:54, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] terminology

i just came across this page rather randomly. i'm amazed to see such an insane argument over terminology, especially when it has produced a consensus in support of a clear misnomer. but language issues seem to invoke irrational emotions in a lot of people. i added some text at the beginning trying to clarify the terminology; i hope someone won't revert this out of some misplaced language patriotism. let me add a few comments that i hope will clarify the situation; perhaps after a few months people's tempers will have cooled and a better name (e.g. "pet door") can be used.

• "cat flap" is meaningless to most americans -- including me, although i've lived in numerous houses with both cat and dog doors. (in fact, when i first saw this term on this page, i completed misguessed what it was referring to.)
• wikipedia usage of english is supposed to be dialect **neutral**; that specifically means "not british or american". british english is *not* a neutral dialect.

Benwing 05:18, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

... and do you have anything new to bring to the discussion? When no neutral term can be found, the dialect of the original author is used. In this case that is British English. Let me assure you that "pet door" is not a term that is used in the UK no matter how neutral you think it might be.

But I'm comfortable with the changes that you made to the lead para, which are all for the good. -- Solipsist 08:27, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] damn issue of terminology

It's obvious to me that people are going to keep complaining until this article gets moved to a dialect-neutral term, so I think this may as well happen sooner rather than later.

Those of you who claim, as Solipsist did, that "when no neutral term can be found, the dialect of the original author is used", should consult the link [9], which *actually* says what the policy is. The relevant points are:

1. The general section is clarified by a list of specific guidelines, with the text "The special cases are clarified in the following guidelines. They are roughly in order; guidelines earlier in this list will usually take precedence over guidelines later".
2. Partway down the list: "Words with multiple spellings: In choosing words or expressions, there may be value in selecting one that does not have multiple spellings if there are synonyms that are otherwise equally suitable. In extreme cases of conflicting names, a contrived substitute (such as fixed-wing aircraft) is acceptable."
3. At the bottom: "If all else fails, consider following the spelling style preferred by the first major contributor (that is, not a stub) to the article."

Note, most importantly:

1. Using [in this case] British English is not the policy but the *last resort*.
2. Using a contrived term is considered preferable to forcing a dialect-specific term.

I'd add that this goes doubly in a case like this where the term [may be considered] a misnomer ("cat flap" vs. "pet flap" or whatever).

Whether you use "pet opening" or "hole that you cut out of your door so your animal can go through" or whatever is not important, but let's *please* not maintain a status quo that obviously is causing extreme conflict!

Benwing 10:21, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

• Amen and thanks for the National varieties of English link. Regards, David Kernow 12:05, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for that Benwing, but it doesn't help much. Probably the only example of a naming dispute that has been resolved by an obtuse 'neutral' name selection is Fixed-wing aircraft and in that case it is a term that is correctly use to describe a superset of the particular item under discussion that is used in all territories, if only in technical circles. For a good counter example check the history of naming disputes for gasoline vs. petrol. Your best entry point is probably Talk:Gasoline/archive2#Article_name (warning its tedious, though occaisionally amusing). This includes similar tongue-in-cheek neutral encompasing terms such as Volatile flammable mixture of hydrocarbons (hexane and heptane and octane etc.) derived from petroleum; used mainly as a fuel in internal-combustion engines.

So no we are not going to move to some made up neologism. That would just be nonsense, not befiting of an encyclopedia. There really isn't as much of a dispute as you imagine. Half the discussion above is initiated by trolls.

Now all of this would be less irritating if some of the US editors adjitating for a move actually bothered to do some research. So far the only substantive editors to have contributed to the article have been British (with an honourable mention to User:Doops who, as a US editor, has made some substantive contributions to the talk page). Here are some questions for you to research;

• When were the first domesticated cats introduced into North America.
• What is the etymology of the term 'pet door' - when and where was the first recorded use.
  • Similarly 'cat door', 'doggie door' etc.
• Take a photograph of a larger doggie door in comparison to a cat flap - US editors claim they are common so this should be easy.
• Take a photograph of a dog using a doggie door (be warned, never work with children or animals - I've taken the photograph of a cat using a cat flap and I can tell you its not as easy as it looks)
• Take a photograph of some other pet using a pet door.
• Come up with a verifiable reference for the invention of the cat flap (afterall, this and the Newton story is what led me to write the article in the first place and it still needs answering)

Again, I've mentioned this before, but whilst plenty of editors imagine they know what's what without doing any research and are willing to argue the toss over naming issues, no one has bothered to do any work.

Finally Benwing, today you have introduced the term 'cat door' to the article as being specifically American English - what is your source for that? Other editors on the talk page here, have claimed that there isn't a British English/American English distinction in the choice of terms. Some have claimed that the American English usage is actually 'Pet door'. As I've mentioned above I've got two copies of the Concise Oxford Dictionary which only refer to 'cat flap' and nothing else (similarly Britannica). So what is your research? -- Solipsist 20:11, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

I've added an etymology section. It isn't really etymology, but definition and notes on the first uses of each term. I hope this clears some things up. - FrancisTyers · 20:46, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for that - that is a positive contribution (one small point below). -- Solipsist 21:09, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Changing the word to another by moving the article clearly would not resolve the issue, and given the enormous opposition to such a move I am curious if not baffled as to why anyone would think it would, SqueakBox 21:39, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, I was hoping a non-partisan approach might yield a solution... Fortunately, this article is not a core topic!  Regards, David Kernow 00:22, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Solipsist, personally I don't know whether "cat door" is specifically American; but I'm surprised you even bring this up. If "cat door" were neutral, surely this entire debate wouldn't exist. However, you seem to have confused the issue of British vs. American and of neutral vs. cat-specific.

Also, what is the possible relevance of [a] photos of cat doors, dog doors, etc.; [b] research about when cats were brought to the U.S.; [c] who invented them; ??? None of these have anything to do with the question of the commonly used term for this contraption.

Furthermore, the fact that two British-written sources use the British term is hardly surprising; alas, my American dictionary (Webster's New World) has no "cat flap", "dog door", "cat door", "pet door" or any other term I could find. Benwing 08:54, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

well, i looked at some of that gasoline vs. petrol dispute; yuck. i'm afraid this problem will reappear over and over until wikipedia finds a proper solution. i bet the same silly arguments have been used on the aluminum/aluminium pages, color/colour pages, etc. etc. etc. ad nauseum: "more countries speak British English!" "more speakers speak US English!" "americans are dominating the world, we need to fight back!" "shut up, you stupid yankee basher!" etc. etc. etc. i think the best solution, as proposed by someone on that page, is the use of country-specific language tags; i bet this is communicated by most browsers and if not, wikipedia could certainly make a good guess from the IP address. this way, there is not necessary a "single accepted" title for anything; an article can have multiple titles, all equally valid, and you get the one that applies to your country.

personally i don't really care that much, but i don't think that perpetually stationing an army around each such page to protect it (as is currently the case in gasoline/petrol) is going to help much. my concerns are mostly (a) the title is a misnomer, please get "cat" out of it; (b) i've (or had) never even heard of "cat flap", and totally misguessed what it was; i suggest the same will happen to other americans, and this is non-optimal. for a term like "pet door", at least most users, whether UK or US, will quickly figure out what this means and not get confused, which is a strong argument in its favor in comparison with the current term. (note that neither issue comes up with alumin(i)um and colo(u)r, and i suspect not in gasoline/petrol, either.)

Benwing 09:11, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

But the word "pet door" doesn't appear in any dictionaries, American or English — at least not the ones I've consulted — if you have more information in this regard, please add it to the article. The words "cat flap" and "cat door" appear in both American and English dictionaries. Its a fortunate thing we have redirect pages. - FrancisTyers · 10:07, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Incidentally, I don't care much about gasoline/petrol, but the status of "Georgia" gets me slightly worked up to say the least :) - FrancisTyers · 10:13, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Posted at: Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Style issues

Catflap has been suggested to be moved to Pet Door several times, as cat flap is uk- centric, not as common usage, and obviously biased towards cats, while dogs use them as well. i see no good reason to not just move the bloody thing, aside from the gang of brits on the talk page who seem to obsess over this and impose their regional POV. Joeyramoney 03:30, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

No comment. - FrancisTyers · 11:42, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

However, you seem to have confused the issue of British vs. American and of neutral vs. cat-specific. No I don't think I've confused any such thing. Previous editors have suggested page moves and argued on both issues. The actual situation appears to be that both are inextricably linked. If you want to move to 'pet door' on the basis that it is pet neutral, then you have a problem because that term isn't used in British English. So you would be converting from BE to AE. These issue have been previously discussed here.

More interestingly, it is possible that a significant part of the problem is suggested by the indoor/outdoor article User:FrancisTyers added yesterday. That indicates that US cat owners rarely let their cats outside and so typically don't have cat doors, whilst 88-92% of UK cat owners do allow their cats outside and so cat flaps are common in the UK. It is quite possible that the opposite is the case with doggie doors, in the UK they are distinctly rare whilst they may be the more common form of pet door in the US. If that is the case, it would explain why the two issues are so inextricably linked - of course someone would need to do some research to find the appropriate statistics.

Also, what is the possible relevance of.... - because most editors who come here suggesting page moves haven't bothered to do any research at all. They just think they know the answer on the basis of heresay, or if we are lucky, a couple of poorly interpreted Google searches. Few if any have bothered to open a dictionary, look at another encyclopedia, or check into the history. We now have several different claims as to what is common usage in America and I don't know which is true, whereas the choice of 'cat flap' is quite unequivocal in the UK. Unfortunately if you now say personally I don't know whether "cat door" is specifically American and you haven't checked a dictionary first, it makes it difficult to support your edit yesterday. Is 'cat door' specifically American English?

There are other issues at play. Other editors here have claimed that doggie doors are as common as cat flaps. I'm pretty sure that is not true in the UK. In my neighbourhood I know of five people with cat flaps. And I've a couple of neighbours with dogs, although only one has a dog small enough to use a doggie door - as it happens non of them have doggie doors. In fact I don't know of anyone who has got a doggie door in the UK, but that is just my experience. So I've tried to get a picture but couldn't. I'm sure they exist; I've seen them in catalogues. But if cat flaps out sell doggie doors by a factor of 10:1 and predate them by a century or two, then the object is a 'cat flap' and 'doggie doors' are a footnote.

Now as I say, it may be that the relatively popularity is reversed in America, South Africa, or Australia, then we have a problem similar to some of the other intractable naming disputes. And you are right, in the long term a software solution with language tagging might resolve things, but until then we will just have to let sleeping dogs lie. -- Solipsist 12:35, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

what i mean by personally I don't know whether "cat door" is specifically American is that i don't know whether it occurs as well in the UK. you should know that, right? if it's UK as well then i have no idea why the UK'ers are objecting; if not then why are you making a big deal of it? Benwing 04:07, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Then it is probably OK. 'Cat door' is not in common usage in the UK, although the OED doesn't appear to flag it as a US only term. -- Solipsist 08:26, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

dictionary.com, which I understand is an American dictionary has Cat flap as the main term and "cat door" listed as a synonym. - FrancisTyers · 08:56, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree this is a risible debate but the problem is that the Americans dont seem to be able to agree on a universally-accepted US term to fight it out against the much-derided British cat flap. Once they do so, would it be within the rules to have the article entitled, say, Cat flap/Doggie door, with cat flap and doggie door both redirecting to there? Jameswilson 02:08, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Authorative source on Newton

With respect to the invention by Newton: I don't think you can say no authoritative source exists'. As mentioned above, the online references such as 'The Daily Mews' are mostly rubbish, however the suspicion is that the invention is mentioned in Newton's papers. The Grantham museum has an exhibit based on the Newton cat flap invention and I've returned to quiz them as to their source. The curator on the door was non-specific, but was keen to assert that one of the Newton biographies does mention it. I've previously read the Westfall biography and more recently looked through it for explicit mentions of cat flaps but can't find anything there. From memory, the book Newton for Beginners (ISBN 1874166072) does mentions it, but that's a tertiory source and I don't consider it to be sufficiently reliable to be worth citing. -- Solipsist 21:09, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Indeed, the wording is bad, and I would happily replace it with better. Incidentally, I've checked JSTOR and they have nothing on cat flaps and Newton. I'm currently searching through Google Scholar, and have found this, "I responded, and went on to say that my love of cats had enabled me to invent the cat flap during my experiments with the spectrum of white light." [10] but its not a particularly good source either. - FrancisTyers · 21:27, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Nothing on Google Scholar, nor on Google Books. Looks like someone gets the job of actually "reading" about this :) - FrancisTyers · 21:31, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Heh, I also just used Google Scholar, and got the above quote but little else ;-) We could start trawling the biographies, but a faster method might be to try and identify a Newton expert and e-mail them. — Matt Crypto 21:33, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Well I tried asking the Newton experts here, but it didn't help much. You might have hoped that some of them had read a Newton biography or two ;-) -- Solipsist 21:56, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, one would *grin*. I'd suggest contacting these people. If anyone does, please drop a note here. I'm quite busy at the moment, but if noone else does, I'll attempt to contact them later this week. — Matt Crypto 22:01, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] worldview and pov

i added these tags as the article largely discusses pet doors for cats, while dogs use them just as much, and of course the term for the article is only extant in the UK, while more POV and commonly used phrases exist. we can just change the bloody title any day now, folks. i'm not sure why you guys have your hearts set on it. Joeyramoney 20:26, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

I've removed the tags. If you have read the discussion above you will see that there is no more problem with a world view than with respect to the choice of gasoline vs petrol.

If you believe that the only problem is to do with the relative frequency of the use of cat flaps by cats or dogs, you will have to substantiate your claim that they are just as frequently used for dogs with some references. -- Solipsist 21:13, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

according to a simple google search, "dog door" brings far more matches than "cat flap". [11]; [12]. when you google "gasoline" vs. "petrol" the difference is much smaller, so the two are not comparable. anyway, the article is just called "Gasoline" now. i don't know how to make this any clearer- "cat flap" is pov and not (as) common usage. "dog door" appears to be a far mor common term. "pet door" will not bring up a single problem. the united kingdon is not the center of the world, buddy. not everyone talks like you. Joeyramoney 22:57, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Shrug. There's many differences between UK and US English, and on various Wikipedia articles, sometimes we use a US version of a term, sometimes we use a UK version. Normally, we use whatever got there first. And that's what we'll do here, end of story. As an aside, the curious thing is that, on Wikipedia, whenever a UK term gets used, there is pretty much always a constant pressure from certain US-English speakers who just can't stand the idea of putting up with something different from their own experience. There's typically not an equivalent pressure the other way round. — Matt Crypto 07:36, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

I hope we are trying to write a decent encyclopedia, not one based on Google. Using google stats to prove something is both original research and not a source. Find a source for your claim that dog door is more common than cat flap (couldn't disagree more). Also the gasoline petrol argument seems to have resolved in favour of the choice of the original editor, which in this case was cat flap, SqueakBox 23:43, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

how is google irrelevant? Joeyramoney 04:11, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Well for one thing you don't appear to know how to do the correct searches, nor interpret the results - you really need to include quotes around your searches. The searches you are trying will return pages that just include the words 'dog' and 'door', so for example at the top of page 28, Google returns a page that includes

A door is what a dog is perpetually on the wrong side of.

and I dare say there are many many others like that. For more on the problems and biases of using Google see Wikipedia:Search engine test.

Now if you do try some better Google searches you will still end up with more results for 'dog door', unless you limit you results to UK sites in which case you get the opposite result. Google does have its place, but you need to know how to use it and even so it often amounts to original research. If possible, it is better to use more reliable sources, such as a dictionary.

Now the choice of article title has been tested four times since last November and every time the concensus is to stay at 'Cat flap'. So apart from the choice of article title, what exactly are your reasons for thinking that this article is POV or has a limited world view? The article discusses both cat flaps and doggie doors, points to some of the international variations and generally refers to 'animal' throughout rather than either dog or cat. -- Solipsist 07:57, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Did you find "dog door" in any dictionaries yet? - FrancisTyers · 08:01, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] keep it Cat Flap

Can I propose this article be kept as Cat Flap and all you Americans stop moaning about the correct use of ENGLISH!Oxyman42 00:19, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm an American, and I opposed moving it last time. (Grumble.) The problem is that the Brits consistently use Cat flap, while Americans use cat door, doggie door', and pet door almost interchangably, making cat flap clearly the most commonly used name. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 15:42, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] fixed

hopefully some of the silly bickering will stop now that dog door has its' own article. either you have an entry for both cats and dogs or seperate entries. having an article that pertains only to cats in highly POV. i don't think we could get much more NPOV than this. 67.172.61.222 21:41, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Oh just wait for some highly intelligent editor to propose a merge! Fiddle Faddle 22:02, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] % UK cats outside

The messy cats article cited at the end of the introduction states that 82-92% of cats in Britian have access to the outdoors. The messy cats article does not explain whether or not feral cats are included. Therefore, the use of the messy cats article to verfiy the statement on this wikipedia page that "particularly in the United Kingdom where it is believed that about 99% of all cats (including ferals) have access to the outdoors, many of these via cat flaps" is confusing to me. Have I missed an embedded number on that page? Did someone mean to link another page? If there is no response to this comment, I will edit the introduction to better reflect the cited article. Enuja 01:46, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Well the article used to say 90%. User:SqueakBox up'd it to 99% in August. I'm not sure why, so I've restored it back to 90%. Mind you, I'm not sure it makes sense to mention feral cats at this point - it might be necessary to qualify the statistic correctly, but almost be definition I doubt that feral cats will be using cat flaps. -- Solipsist 09:26, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

I got a bit carried away, and did more than just cut down the 2nd paragraph in the introduction to better reflect the source. I tried to cut out as much superfluous language as possible. I still couldn't glean any info as to how ferals fit into the 88-92% outdoor access statistic, so I just removed the mention of ferals entirely. Maybe the "features" section should be divided and ferals getting into houses through cat flaps put into a "drawbacks" section? I'm not sure, because many of the features directly address drawbacks. I took out all of the definitions of cat flap and cat door in the etymology section, as the very beginning of the article defines these synonyms quite well indeed. I didn't do anything to the last 3 paragraphs (last 4 sentences), as I'm not sure what to do with them. I haven't found any sources yet, and those things aren't really "features" of cat flaps, just interesting little tid-bits tacked on to the end of the article.Enuja 22:37, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Looks good to me. At the moment, I don't think we need to mention feral cats - I doubt that it is common for feral cats to enter a house via a cat flap. On the whole cats are uncomfortable with entering another's territory, although I imagine it does happen occaisionally, especially if a feral cat learns that there might find food inside. If someone can find a useful reference on the subject we could re-add it. Mind you I did once find a wood pigeon tapping at my girlfriend's cat flap - which seemed particularly unwise. -- Solipsist 07:54, 27 October 2006 (UTC)