Talk:Casualties of the Turkish-Kurdish conflict

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It is not a Turkish-Kurdish conflict, but it is related to Kurdish seperatism(nationalism). Because not all Kurds sopport PKK. Causalities are due to PKK-Army guerilla war, and terror campaigns of PKK against Kurds that support government and civilians in big cities. Causalities of the Turkish-Kurdish conflict is not correct name for it. Better than mine can be found!Paparokan 18:34, 10 February 2007 (UTC) An article which is named as "Terrorist attacks attributed to the LTTE" exists. Why cannot we have an article as "Terrorist attacks attributed to the PKK". LTTE and PKK are similar groups. Paparokan 18:39, 10 February 2007 (UTC) What about "Causalities of Turkish-PKK conflict" for the article's name?. As, I said above this conflict cannot named as ethnical conflict.Paparokan 00:07, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] it is not Turkish-Kurdish conflict

Title of the article should be changed into 'PKK attacks'. I am from Diyarbakir but i dont support the attacks of PKK. There is no Kurdistan here. It is a city of Turkish Republic. You can come here and see. Some parts of the article should be changed. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.6.67.206 (talk) 18:37, 21 February 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Incorrect Article Title

If you want this article to be truly neutral and accurate the title should be:

Casualties of PKK and Turkish Republic Conflict.

Main reason for necessity of a change is, there is no conflict between Turkish and Kurdish people. Current title suggests there is.--Mehmetugur 12:35, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

I think it's fine. The PKK is Kurdish, the Turkish government is largely Turkish. Plus there are some non-PKK things in there too. --AW 18:42, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
If you try to find an analogue of PKK, we should remember LTTE. LTTE is the Sri Lankan version of PKK. They are similar; one can say the major differences are their countries and names. I can give evidence for this. What I was trying to change was the name "Turkish-Kurdish conflict" for a more proper name, not the article's text. If there is two identical twin groups, names should be similar. If you call one article “Terrorist attacks by LTTE", another one as "Causalities of Kurdish-Turkish conflict", it is not objective. Former name was "Civilian casualties caused by PKK"; it was not founded as objective. (But, in LTTE and ETA articles this name is used and it is not founded as against objectivity.) Now, the name is "Causalities of Turkish-Kurdish conflict" which is not objective.

"Turkish-Kurdish conflict" name is not suitable for the article name because there is not an ethnic conflict. Do you have any proof for this? There is a Kurdish problem in Turkey. PKK, a Marxist group supported by some Kurds attacks Army, civilians and Kurdish feudal forces that support government. This is not a ethnic conflict because in Turkey, there is not a political tension between Turkish and Kurdish speaking groups. They make marriages; many Kurds live in areas with huge Turkish population. There are Kurdish speaking ministers, i. e. Mehdi Eker. To name this problem as a "Turkish-Kurdish conflict" is not objective, it some kind of PKK propaganda. For example in India there was "Muslim-Hindu conflict", people were killing each other. It is not the same as Kurdish problem in Turkey. (See Mustafa Akyol’s book on Kurdish problem in Turkey.)

My proof for PKK/LTTE similarity is : http://www.saag.org/papers19/paper1865.html

"Turkish Government Forces-PKK conflict" is a better name.

Also, see the discussion in Archive1. Paparokan 11:14, 5 March 2007 (UTC)


AW, what do you smoke man ? do you think PKK is just Kurdish, there are lots of Armenian, Arrabs and others. Why dont you stop smoking and type google and do some searches haa :) There are lots of Kurdish people who thinks PKK doesnt represents them I agree with Mehmet, the articles needs changing
The article covers non-PKK related attacks and non-Turkish Republic attacks, so that would be inaccurate. - Francis Tyers · 18:26, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

I used PKK in the name, because it is the primary organization responsible of the killings. I used Turkey instead of Turkish Government Forces, as it is a short form. Names using Kurdish instead of PKK is definitely not neutral.Paparokan 11:39, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Human rights report is neutral, isn't it? It uses the term

"Turkish government forces have, in the course of the conflict with the PKK", and it does not use ethnic conflict. Ethnic conflict is something different and more bloody as in India Hindu-Muslim conflict. Also, PKK should be used instead of Kurdish, because Kurdish feudal forces like Edip Bucak, and many other aşirets support government, PKK attacks them, and kills Kurds that support government.Paparokan 11:44, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

I do not object any name which uses PKK inside. Paparokan 11:46, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Paparokan, I think this article should also mention Kurdish civilian casualties as well. If we have "Turkey-PKK" the title, we woudln't be able to mention them. Khoikhoi 06:04, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

I split it into three parts, now it should be OK, imo. What do you think? I also fixed some references (dead ones, etc).

[edit] [1]

This page is one of the references, but some of the names are probably listed wrong, eg. Enez Atak should probably be Enes Ata and Mehmet Isik should be Mehmet Işıkçı. Please check the pages (in Turkish)

Also I checked the telephone directory, 5 people with last name Ata in Diyarbakir Merkez show up, none with the last name Atak, though this does not prove anything.

We have the following sentence there: Fatih Tekin – 3 year old boy, shot during a police raid on civilians' houses in Batman, 30 March What I understand from here is that policemen raided some houses and shot (most likely intentionally) a child in those houses, which also contradicts the newspapers. According to the newspapers, the police raided some rioting group in Petrol Mahallesi, a street/district, and a ricocheted bullet hit a kid playing in a nearby park. The newspapers might be biased, but theirs is more believable, in my opinion. I guess I am biased, so I am not going to edit that part. deniz 13:44, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Opposition to reorganisation

I'm opposed to reorganising this article into sections based on organisation. For example, if we do this we may separate Turkish attack and PKK attack which were the same and had casualties on both sides. This would be confusing. - Francis Tyers · 21:48, 18 March 2007 (UTC)


We didn't have that. We had the incidents a) involving TAK, b) involving PKK, c)not involving TAK and PKK or unknown

The unknown ones can be put in the right place once we know more about them. We can have a d) for incidents involving only foreign nationals (there were a few of them). If we get to have to many 'other's, we can make section for them and separate from unknowns. Only problem would be TAK and PKK together case, which hasn't happened yet, and if happens, we'll just make a new section

Content box summarises all sections.

deniz 01:56, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

You're disregarding civilian casualties caused by the Turkish military, which by to all reports is around on a par to those caused by the PKK. - Francis Tyers · 10:10, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
I am not disregarding any casualties, I did not remove any, I haven't added any (I removed only one which was written twice, second one under the wrong year).

deniz 13:15, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

By putting them at the bottom under "other". This marginalises them and doesn't make the link between casualties of the PKK and casualties of the Turkish Military. - Francis Tyers · 13:38, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
I am not sure that that matters so much since we have a contents box, but we can move that others section to top, or maybe better yet, we can change the summary into something like this:
Below is a non-exhaustive list of attacks during the conflict, particularly those with civilians as targets. The list excludes attempted or planned attacks thwarted by the security forces. The list is separated into three parts:
  • a) Casualties by TAK, which lists the attacks by TAK, a group split off from PKK, currently we have three attacks listed out of x many (reference).
  • b) Killings by PKK, which lists attacks involving PKK not attributed to TAK. Note that this list contains the casualties of armed conflicts between PKK and Turkish military/paramilitary forces, currently we have around 50 attacks listed out of x many total (reference)
  • c) Others or Unknown which lists attacks not involving PKK, nor TAK. Note that this list contains attacks by the Turkish military/paramilitary on the civilians. Currently we have about 10 attacks listed there. There have been at least x many

such attacks (reference)

I am going to make these changes, take a look them. I am going to remove 'the out of x many' parts for now deniz 20:52, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

I continue to oppose this re-organisation. The article should be organised solely along temporal lines. - Francis Tyers · 12:02, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
And I prefer this version. I don't really see why you insist on the previous version. This version gives us more (relevant) information, this is an encyclopedia, not belonging to you by the way. denizTC 18:19, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
As I have said before, it does not give any more information and leads to a simplistic view of the conflict. - Francis Tyers · 08:50, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] What does this line mean?

"In his article, Rouleau had claimed holding the number from the Turkish Ministry of Justice." Does holding mean hiding from them, or holding mean he got the number from them? --AW 14:36, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] What is the HPG?

It's mentioned a couple times, what is it?? --AW 14:44, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

People’s Defense Forces (Hêrzên Parastina Gel, HPG) — armed wing of the PKK. - Francis Tyers · 15:05, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Timeline

The timeline is unbalanced as it doesn't include details of Turkish military and paramilitary operations, nor does it include attacks and bombings by Turkish terrorist organisations towards Kurds or the PKK. - Francis Tyers · 14:00, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

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