Talk:Cassandra phenomenon

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Articles for deletion This article was nominated for deletion on March 26, 2007. The result of the discussion was no consensus.

Is this really recognised as a psychological syndrome? The description here (predicting true events but not being believed) doesn't even sound like a syndrome. At least the version in Twelve Monkeys (believing that one can predict the future but cannot change it) sounds like a syndrome, although I only know it from that fictional work. In any case, we need references! —Toby Bartels 23:32, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Well I found a couple of citation that specifically relate to Asperger Syndrome where the term seems to be "under creation" and is not, as yet, very clearly defined, and might not be considered valid at this point. --Zeraeph 17:45, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] cross post from talk:aspergers

I think it is important, as they say in American Baseball, for the "amateurs to clear the field." Most references of the term lead to Maxine Aston, who holds no graduate degree of any kind and had a bad marriage herself to an aspie. The latter doesn't disqualify her, but she does not submit to peer review; rather she writes for the popular press and thus is about as authoritative as Dr Phil. Except he's really a doctor.

   http://www.maxineaston.co.uk/

I think Dr Attwood's description is informative. Personally, as an often-invisible condition, i don't doubt the partner's of asperger's have unique difficulties. I would be curious to hear more from qualified professionals on the topic.


In social situations with friends and family, two-way misinterpretations of signals can occur, Attwood said. When the partner tries to talk about the situation, he or she may experience what Attwood called the Cassandra Phenomenon. In Greek mythology, Cassandra was given the gift of prophecy, but fated to have no one believe her. "With Asperger's, life is a stage," Attwood said. "The curtain goes up while they are in public and down when they are at home. Because other people do not see the problem, they question your sanity - you are on your own. In some families, denial has held the family together for generations, and you want to bring down the scaffolding." As a result, the neuro-typical partner may actually need more support than the one with Asperger's. Therefore, contact with other partners through newsletters, a support group, or an Internet site is vital.

CeilingCrash 20:50, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Wheat from the chaff

I have yet to find Dr. Attwood committing to the term "Cassandra Syndrome" in print. I came across a few off-hand references to his mentioning it in lectures, but nothing written yet.

There is an astonishing profusion of material written by non-researchers whose only qualification is a bad personal experience, Aston foremost among them. There is a lot of authority-by-association, where Aston will present at a seminar Attwood holds, and refer to it almost as a joint effort. Worse, Aston has lectured at a hospital in Massachussetts, but refers to it constantly as "a Harvard Teaching Hospital." There are no less then EIGHTEEN harvard teaching hospitals in the greater boston area, all the big ones and lots of the little ones. If you break a leg within 50 miles of boston you will mostly likely end up at a harvard teaching hospital. It is hardly a crimson distinction to go talk at one, and implies no endorsement or invitation from harvard university. In short, she has struggled to get her name in the same sentence as Attwood and Harvard in very deceptive ways.

Aston holds a bachelors degree and a certificate from a course of instruction requiring under 200 hours. She is unqualified to publish research.

The lack of peer-review, personal bias shows. Her writings constitute hate-speech :

from http://www.faaas.org/doc.php?25,135

" Problems reported by partners of people with Asperger's syndrome:

 Selfishness 
 Unpredictable outbursts of anger 
 Lack of executive control over life 
 Irrational blame of others 
 Alcohol abuse 
 Sexual problems 
 Lack of empathy 
 Problems in socialising 
 Children overcontrolled and emotionally abused

"

Obviously this is without scientific merit. A single incidence of, say, alcoholism suffices to make the list of "problems reported." While the statement is true on the face of it, it is identical to "African Americans have been reported to voilently attack whites." Well of course it's happened at least once, but how many, how often, who counted, who double-checked, is it statistically significant? This crosses the line from deceit to hateful prejudice.

Her book, to give a representative excerpt, says "There can be very little hope for these relationships if the man does not become aware and accept that he has a problem and if he believes his behavior and actions toward his partner are completely unacceptable." The foregone conclusion that - first, the aspie is *male* - and more importantly - is necessarily the source of 'unacceptable' behavior and actions - makes clear her predisposition to assign blame for relationship problems to asperger's.

Her website announces that "Research by Aston (2003)3 has shown that 75 per cent of couples affected by Asperger syndrome attended couple counselling." Hello !? The footnote refers to her own book of course, and omits a page number.

I will keep looking for Attwood or somebody else who is subject to peer review for mention of this. I think the issue of NT-Aspie relationships and the unique problems encountered by NT partners of aspies is of huge importance.

 http://www.maxineaston.co.uk/ .

I will contact Ms. Aston and see if she wishes to respond to my comments here. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by CeilingCrash (talk • contribs) 21:54, 20 March 2007 (UTC).

You and me both...cos I can't find Attwood committing to it either.
I'll be VERY interested to see what Ms Aston will say too. I certainly find her omission of all mention of her marriage significant, but if she can show us references we can use that will be a start on a great article. If nothing else comes up we may have to consider AFD on the grounds of non-notability.--Zeraeph 22:29, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
I'll keep you posted, i invited her to respond directly here or to email me and i'll post for her.
Kind of a shame if we have to take the whole article down, I *do* like the painting !
I'll scour around to see if there are any qualified sources on this; I'd like to see a dispassionate and even handed account of how the NT-Aspie gap is bridged in relationships.

141.149.168.130 03:56, 21 March 2007 (UTC) 141.149.168.130 03:52, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The proof of the pudding

As we say here in England "The proof of the pudding is in the eating". Such is the case with many scientific "discoveries" or "proofs" - the condition often exists long before it is either accepted or even dealt with by the scientific or academic communities.

Perhaps it's worth taking a look at the feedback from two very successful "Healing of Cassandra" workshops carried out by Maxine Aston - it would be nice if Wikapedia would correct the spelling of her name - in Coventry and London last year

http://www.maxineaston.co.uk/HoC_Cov_0608/ or http://www.maxineaston.co.uk/HoC_Lon_0609/

Women travelled from the USA, Canada, Belgium, Ireland and the UK to attend these workshops; Maxine has innumerable email from women testifying to being affected by CAD; Maxine has had innumerable requests from the USA, Canada, Australia and South Africa for her to take her workshops there; clients travel from these countries to seek both her expertise and counsel on these matters.

As to the disparaging remarks made against Maxine Aston, I can only say that these remarks are without foundation and show the calibre of the those writing them.

You only have to visit Maxine's web-site to find her qualifications and make your own mind up. Beyond her educational qualifications she is an author of two books on the subject of relationships and Asperger Syndrome; she has thousands of hours, in the many years she has been working with people, of "real world" counselling - especially in the field of Asperger Syndrome - Maxine continues to work "on the ground" with people; she has never lost sight of the importance of being "in on the ground".

Maxine's books are based entirely upon her research gathered from an enormous number of people, both AS and NT, over many years. If anyone is interested in the exhaustive questionnaire participants completed then please visit: http://www.maxineaston.co.uk/research/

I can categorically say that Maxine Aston was never married to anyone, to her knowledge at the time, affected by Asperger Syndrome; I would be interested to see the documentation that shows Maxine was married to a person affected by Asperger Syndrome or, if the person who wrote that can't supply said, they apologise to Maxine forthwith.

Maxine Aston has used neither the term Cassandra Syndrome nor the term Cassandra Phenomena. Instead Maxine drew a parallel between SAD (which I might add was disparaged by the scientific community for many years) and the Cassandra effect upon women, leading to her calling it "Cassandra Affective Disorder" - emotional deprivation as opposed to sunlight deprivation.

If anyone would like further information on CAD or is interested in the work Maxine is involved in then please, do not hesitate to contact me.

P. Bradley (PA to Maxine Aston) +44 207 871 1957 pb@maxineaston.co.uk

P.S. Forgive my excessive use of idioms but I couldn't but not after reading "amateurs to clear the field." in a previous posting here. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Slowlylearning (talk • contribs) 12:25, 21 March 2007 (UTC).

Well before all things, I have corrected my spelling error in Maxine's name, and apologise profusely, as I honestly recall wondering whether it was Maxin Easton when I saw the URL so I have no idea how I went wrong, regardless, a profoundly irritating thing for me to do.
Let me try and explain what I am trying to do here. I saw the article Cassandra Syndrome referenced on a Wiki project, and decided to establish whether the term was actually in use in any context at all. I discovered the link to Maxine on the National Autistic Society Uk Site, where they referred to Cassandra Syndrome specifically (so you had better get onto them if anyone has a problem with that). All the references I can find so far are ambiguous, not only as to origins but also as to what it is actually called.
It's nice that Maxine wrote a book and runs workshops, truly it is (and she has my fullest, personal sympathy for having married someone with AS without knowing it, that must have been a tough call), and that people feel theyu benefit from them, but she is not sufficiently academically qualified to stand alone as a primary source for a Wikipedia Article on a psychology topic, for that we need verifiable academic references to formal research, not least because, without those, whatever she has to say would be considered original research at present and excluded as such, without regard for her qualifications or lack of.
So anyway, that would seem to guarantee the exclusion of CAD and all reference to Maxine under Cassandra Syndrome until there is formal academic verification.
However, I would appreciate if you could appraise me of any references you have to academic or medical use of the terms "Cassandra Syndrome" or "Cassandra Phenomenon"?
I am going to copy this to your email addy. --Zeraeph 13:36, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm not quite sure how anyone could construe Maxin Easton to be Maxine Ashton?

  • Insert by Zereaph - you missed my point, which was that, I haven't got a clue how I moved straight from wondering if her name was "maxin easton" to typing "maxine ashton" either (though I suspect it may be tied to the same part of my brain that can often be found talking to shopping trollies?), but that is what I did...my only plea in mitigation is that I had never heard of her until a few minutes before I typed the citations--Zeraeph 18:44, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

As I said, neither Cassandra Syndrome nor Cassandra Phenomenon have ever been used by Maxine Aston; she uses the term Cassandra Affective Disorder. What the NAS want to refer to it is their concern however no where on Maxine's web site will you find those references.

As I said, there is more than enough real physical testimony, from people to warrant Maxine using the term; whether it is listed on Wikapedia or not is of very little interest to either Maxine or the women she helps.

Perhaps you might try searching Google - that esteemed search engine - for Cassandra Affective Disorder and see what you find.

The top listing from FAAAS http://www.faaas.org/doc.php?40,0 states: "Her research has led her to define Cassandra Affective Disorder (CAD) as a distinct disorder affecting NT family members who are living with AS behaviors".

If you follow through to other links you'll find: http://www.lorman.com/bookstore/bookstore_details.php?sku=363157 which says "Cassandra Phenomenon/Cassandra Affective Disorder - Newly Recognized Family Disorder Within Asperger's Syndrome Families".

I could go on with this but I leave it to anyone who is interested.

Being patronising does you no favours; Maxine's work is very important to those who benefit from that work. Once again I refer you to the feedback from previous workshops: http://www.maxineaston.co.uk/HoC_Cov_0608 and http://www.maxineaston.co.uk/HoC_Lon_0609.

As you're obviously not interested in finding out about Maxine's qualifications: herewith I provide: 1st class BSc (Hons) Psychology. Currently writing her dissertation for an MSc in health psychology. C.C.CERT. Relate. C&G 7407 FE Teacher. Diploma in Casework Supervision. E.M.D.R. Practitioner. Lectured at the University of Coventry. 13 years experience as a counsellor. Over 5,000 counselling hours behind her. Trainer to Relate Counsellors. Author of The Other Half of Aspergers (NAS 2001) Author of Aspergers in Love (Jessica Kingsley 2003) Frequent speaker at international conferences; the 7th Dutch National Autism Congress in March 2007 was Maxine's last presentation.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Slowlylearning (talk • contribs). 14:42, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Revert and AFD?

In the light of what P.Bradley has said, it would seem that any connection between Maxine and Cassandra syndrome is a, currently, non notable coincidence, so I would like to revert all mention that I made of her here?

However, without that, it would ALSO seem that Cassandra Syndrome, as presented, is just a term somebody made up and created a stub about, which really doesn't seem notable enough for an article to me, so I would like to propose an AFD on the grounds of non-notable, or even non-existant topic?

Thoughts?--Zeraeph 13:47, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Agreed, I vote to at least strike mention of Ms. Aston, absent formal peer review and credentials to submit to such (the only pertinent consideration here.) This in and of itself does not necessarily express an opinion on the quality of her work.
The terminological correction, that she refers to it as Cassandra Affective Disorder as opposed to Syndrome appears a moot distinction.


The error in fact about her marriage to a person with AS is my fault entirely and I apologize and will remove mention of it from this discussion which appears to be a soon-to-be-moot matter anyway. The rest of my comments I stand by.
Should we dig a bit more into attwood, perhaps email him? He does seem to be using the term at least casually ... CeilingCrash 17:09, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
Mailing Tony Attwood seems an obvious thing to do, now you mention it. I think Maxine Aston can stay if Tony Attwood corroborates? It's hard to call. --Zeraeph 18:34, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
My gut response is 'yes', but on further reflection, i don't think we can source private communication from subject matter experts. The best we can hope for is he will point us to a source (which may turn out to be his own writings.) If that source corroborates her by name, then she can stay. If it corroborates Cassandra but not Maxine, then Cassandra can stay but Maxine can't. Does this make sense?
(You wanted lively discussion ... boy did you get it! :) )
I shall email Dr Atwood and simply ask him if this is referencable anywhere, and out of personal curiosity what he thinks of it, and post the reply here. I will of course refrain from any ... editorializing or personal POV's.
It is my guess that the term Cassandra will be too loaded to find favor in the research community. The aspect that nobody believes Cassandra seems very apt (as asperger's is often quite 'hidden'),

however her role in mythology as a prophet of doom may be regarded as inappropriate for *any* medical or psychiatric condition. Let's see what attwood says ... CeilingCrash 18:57, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Oh heavens yes, that's what I meant...mail him to see if he has, or knows of, anything published to corroborate Maxine and/or Cassandra syndrome (which may, or may not, need a rename). --Zeraeph 19:10, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
Well, here we are, I found Tony Attwood's references to "Cassandra phenomenon". One big problem, those references are unrelated to Maxine Aston's work in any way. Obviously those who crossreferenced the two misunderstood that. --Zeraeph 20:20, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
Looks good, at least we have something. No word from attwood yet, i'll keep you posted. I'm going to remove the attribution to Linehan as her writings also do not meet the criteria (she is an attorney). And let me try to restore the painting :)

208.49.146.130 21:06, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

OK, but as far as I can see, painting is still there? Hmmmmm --Zeraeph 21:18, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
Yes my browser was just configured to filter images of greek mythology post-rennaisance. My bad.

CeilingCrash 21:38, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Qualifications

I thought I would outline the qualifications Maxine has:

1st class BSc (Hons) Psychology. Currently writing her dissertation for an MSc in health psychology. C.C.CERT. Relate. C&G 7407 FE Teacher. Diploma in Casework Supervision. E.M.D.R. Practitioner. Lectured at the University of Coventry. 13 years experience as a counsellor. Over 5,000 counselling hours behind her. Trainer to Relate Counsellors. Author of The Other Half of Aspergers (NAS 2001) Author of Aspergers in Love (Jessica Kingsley 2003) Frequent speaker at international conferences; the 7th Dutch National Autism Congress in March 2007 was Maxine's last presentation.

P. Bradley (PA to Maxine Aston) +44 207 871 1957 pb@maxineaston.co.uk —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Slowlylearning (talk • contribs) 14:09, 21 March 2007 (UTC).

The standards here are universal to scholarly exposition, the intent is to apply those standards as uniformly as possible. 'Physical Evidence', books written, workshops and such do not rise to this standard. There has been no peer review in which experts in the field have had the opportunity to refute the research and scrutinize its methods.
For example, her posting of a questionaire on her website to gather data for research introduces Selection Bias which renders the data non representative of the population. That is, those who visit her site and take the test may be predisposed in any one of a hundred ways which renders them non representative (eg, may be predisposed to being sympathetic with her published views, hence their initial presence.)

Peer review exists to prevent this sort of error.

CeilingCrash 17:20, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Have to agree with CeilingCrash...and even if I didn't, it's still original researh and, as such, "inadmissible as evidence" I am afraid.--Zeraeph 17:38, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
Yes, 'original' in the sense used here meaning 'not previously published as in a refereed journal.' —The preceding unsigned comment was added by CeilingCrash (talk • contribs) 17:43, 21 March 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Bludgeoning an expired equine

Just to clarify, my objections to the content of Ms Aston's writings are not part of the consideration for exclusion. That was me essentially sounding off. My fellow wikipedians systematically ignore comments on content and focus on wikipedia's stated policies.

I just wanted to make that distinction clear to those who may be new here.

CeilingCrash 18:00, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Word from Attwood :

I have an answer from Attwood regarding the sourceability of the term Cassandra :

"... this is not a recognized disorder but is used to describe the feelings of someone who is a partner of a man or woman with Asperger's syndrome. The intention is to provide some degree of ‘legitimacy’ to the problems faced by a partner. I do not think that the intention is for this to be recognized as a psychiatric disorder in a clinical sense."
Best Wishes
Tony

(Note, this was not a response to me, but to another person who happened to ask

him the same question.)

It seems clear we should strike the article. Thoughts? CeilingCrash 02:31, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

DEFINATELY clear to me too. I am quite sure Wikipedia is WP:NOT a forum for DIY psych disorders!
...and if anybody ever does manage to attribute a specific syndrome to the partners and relatives of Aspie I hope to heaven they find something more appropriate and respectful to call it than "Cassandra". I am not sure who the term dispects most, the Aspies or their partners...am I the only person who remembers that to call somebody a "Cassandra" is to imply that they are someone who places undue emphasis on the negatives in life, and that volubly! Let's go for AFD. --Zeraeph 02:45, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
Yes, and the term Cassandra is also commonly used sarcastically, since no mortal has the gift of prophesy. 141.149.168.130 05:26, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
HONESTLY! Where DO these people get their terminology from? ;o) Maybe whoever is in touch with Tony Attwood should mention these aspects to him, along with one other, which is the "Cassandra" has VERY gender specific connotations that are singularly inappropriate in any area related to support? --Zeraeph 12:40, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
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