Talk:Carnation Revolution
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[edit] Pure Propaganda
This article was clearly written by full blown Marxist-Leninist. This was not a democratic revolution but a Maxist one, an exchange for one dictatorship for another.
The new regime's crimes were numerous, most seriously the creation of brutal Soviet-colonialist regimes in the former Portuguese colonies. Millions of "counter-revolutionaries" died, massacred by local communists, Soviets, East Germans, Cubans, and Zimbabweans.
Within ten years, the population of the former Portuguese Guinea had declined by forty percent. These disgusting wars didn't end until Gorbachev took over in Russia.Scott Adler 21:41, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
- Can you find a citation for these massacres? Andrew Levine 23:31, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Cleanup
This article should be marked for cleanup and improvement. I don't have the time and knowlage for this, but I still have the impression it is too much cliche and pov -prone, does not go indepth enough in many areas. Th unpassioned descitprion of prior and post events, and some section to present diffrent points of view still prevailing would be much needed. --BBird 12:59 29 December 2005 (UTC)
The first couple of paragraphs are barely readable. This article desperately needs rewriting for clarity and citation of sources. -anon
[edit] Opinions not facts
This article is full of opinions (mostly leftist) and short of facts. I would advise not to trust it. It looks more like propaganda full of cliches.
I made some changes. this article looked like taken from the communist party bulletin. The revolution in Portugal is much more controversial in its origins, motivations and cosequnces. The good thing is that Portugal became a full democracy (but only after 1975 and a lot of trouble). But the communist prosections, the orgiac nationalisations and the decolonisation process were all disaters. Portugal is still paying for it. --BBird 16:28, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
I detected on section "Events" some points of inaccuracy, about what I would like to make a discussion. I would be very glad if the author answers. We can read there "In February 1974, Caetano was obliged by the old guard to remove General António Spínola and his underlings (...)». In fact, Marcello Caetano exonerated Spínola and – here is the mistake - the highest commander of all the military forces, Francisco da Costa Gomes, who was a Spínola's hierarchical superior and NOT «his underlings».
Next to the first quoted sentence, this phrase «General tried to change the direction of Portuguese colonial policy, which had become too expensive» give us the ideia, in my opinion, that General Spínola took action for disagreeing of colonial war budget. Actually, the controversially about Spínola were related to the publish of Spínola’s book "Portugal e o Futuro" (“Portugal and its Future”, in a free translation), in witch he proposed a political conversation about the war on portuguese colonies and not a military solution, as wanted by political leaders of Portugal, who extended the war until the Carnation Revolution, when they were deposed.
Referring to MFA, group of militairs that led the coup, the author posted «This movement was borne in secrecy in 1973 through the conspiracy of some army officers of leftist tendencies who had been radicalized by the breakdown of the colonial war.» The MFA at his beginning was an apolitical group and not a «conspiracy of some army officers of leftist tendencies». It was born as protest of profissional militaries against a law that gave quick promotion for temporarily recruited civil people.
In the end of the section it is posted «Caetano was then immediately exiled in Brazil.» Caetano was immediately exiled in Madeira, portuguese island on Atlantic, and after to Brazil.
(Miguel P 05:18, 5 September 2005 (UTC))
[edit] POV?
Well, I'm not an expert on Portugal's history, but it seems to me that recent changes made by BBird gave the article an apologist tone, see, for example, the removal of almost all the occurrences of "dictatorship" and the specious distinction that "[u]nder the Estado Novo, Portugal was considered not a democray, whether by the opposition, by foreign observers, or even by the regime leaders themselves", only to avoid the use of "dictatorship". My sensation is that the alleged "leftist POV" has been replaced by a stronger pro-Salazar POV. GhePeU 10:38, 9 September 2005 (UTC)
Definitely not pro-Salazar, but people have to understand that all this talk about dictatorship are a kind of politically correct speech that occurred in Portugal after 1974, which in many ways pure propaganda. Anyway even if Salazar was a de facto dictator (he was not de jury, his powers were limited by a constitution, a Parliament and so on), Marcelo Caetano, who was deposed in 1974 (Salazar left the office in 1968), was not a dictator. The regime was monoparty (but in 1974 there were different political spheres in the Parliament), but to say it was a dictatorship is too strong and probably inaccurate. My amendmsnt jsut tried to balance the text. To say the truth I don't care much anyway, I just don't like politicaly charged one way views. --BBird 14:58, 9 September 2005 (UTC)
[edit] 40%?
I had already heard about 40% of the Budget going to defense during the war, but I sincerely doubt this number. I have studied Portuguese Economic History and even José da Silva Lopes (one of Portugal's most respected political economists), in one of his best essays (História Recente da Economia Portuguesa, 1996), points out that the war didn't have any major economic consequences for Portugal. A 40% drain would surely have heavy and grave consequences for the Portuguese economy. I would like to know the source from where this data was taken. Thank you. --MiguelFC 21:23, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
I also doubt. Anyway 40% of the Government budget at the time is quite diffrent from 40% today, as the GB at the time reresented much les than today. One of the consequences of 25-4 was the exponential increase in Government spending. --BBird 22:11, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Cleanup of the translation
A lot of this article reads like it was written by someone whose first language was not English.
I've made a number of minor changes to make the article flow better and to delete some bits that didn't make sense.
What this article needs is a photo of a gun with a carnation!--Filceolaire 12:06, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Clarification
'Oliveira Salazar came to control the country until 1968, when he was incapacitated.' How exactly was he incapacitated? Did he suffer a stroke or something similiar, or did someone break his legs while he was having a shower? I think it would be useful if something more specific was here, rather than the very ambiguous 'incapacitated'. Hegar 15:24, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
A kind of stroke. He fell from a chair in his summer house and never recovered.--BBird 15:31, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
As a matter of fact, Salazar did not actually rule the country until 1968. By that time, he was in a hazardous state of health for some years.
Since he had a problem and became incapacited and had been dismissed by the president, to his death (a 4 months period) the ministers and all the people that were around him created a giant theathre to he think he still was rulling. They used to gave him laws to sign. He died without knowing he had been dismissed.
The context section is currently quite large and isn't very exact in terms of framing the Ultramar war. Is anybody bothered by the idea of it being reestructed (and, to do so, partially rewritten) into subsections (such as Dictatorship, Relationships with other nations, The Ultramar war and Economy - just as examples for now)? If not, I'll try and get to do so eventually. Cheers, Zeppocity 06:25, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
The article is quite correct, in fact 40% was really the height of the war and those who say not so are lying. It's not a leftist article as it doesn't make leftist references at all. Please do not erase our history. It was a dictatorial regime, and that's it.
