Talk:Carmenère

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Carmenère (reviewed version) has been listed as a good article under the good-article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can delist it, or ask for a review.

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	This article was the Wine Improvement Drive subject for 18 February - 4 March 2007. For details on the improvements made to the article, see the history of past improvement drives.
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Contents 1 Grape Name 2 Picture 3 Last week of Wine Improvement Drive 4 GA ?? 5 GA Passed

[edit] Grape Name

I think it would be best to have the article's name be the grape's proper name Carmenère with the "English" spelling being the redirect, not the otherway around as it is currently. Agne 02:03, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

I was just about to comment about suggesting a move. Since no one has commented negatively with your suggestion, I'm going to be bold and do it. --- The Bethling^(Talk) 00:07, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Oh, no: it looks like the spelling is actually Carménère [1]. But many websites have Carmenère or spell it with no accents at all. I suppose we should go with the absolutely most correct spelling. Which? Badagnani 04:30, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Dear Badagnani: Carmenère is fine. At least, that's the name that all Chilean winemakers producing the wine print on their labels, as if by common agreement. I can supply you with plenty of (scanned) bottle labels, if you like. Just write to aka_ef@yahoo.com | Regards, AVM 22:24, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

• Back to this discussion: The original name is Carménère but Chile uses Carmenère. SHould it be moved to the original and just provide a redirect and address the change in name in the article? - Charleenmerced ^talk 14:45, 19 February 2007 (UTC)Charleenmerced

• • I have changed all of the article's Carmenère to Carménère. 2 reasons - both Spanish and French wikipedias have their title in with the Carménère heading. Since the grape and the grapes name comes from France, it should be Carménère. The biggest producer of Carménère is Chile and Spanish wiki's heading is Carménère. Further, I checked the wineries that produce it in Chile and they have written Carménère. Although some do only use Carmenère and CARMENERE (capitalized and adding no accents), the correct spelling is Carménère. Therefore the article title should be changed and there should be a redirect from Carmenere and Carmenère to Carménère. --Charleenmerced ^Talk 04:27, 5 March 2007 (UTC)Charleenmerced

[edit] Picture

• Does anyone have a picture of Carmenere grapes? Or a way to get one?Charleenmerced ^Talk 20:45, 22 February 2007 (UTC)Charleenmerced
• Made some changes to the order of the pictures and added one that compares both Merlot and Carmenere. I still think the Merlot one should stay since it gives the reader an idea of how a real merlot grape looks v. Carmenere grape. Also, it shoes the leaves, which are a bit different. It is still nice to compare both side by side. Finally, as to The Casillero del Diablo wine label picture, I put it with the wine producers. I am hoping to get, in the future, samples of some or most of the wine producers and make a scrolling image gallery. ANother user has volunteered to do this.Charleenmerced ^Talk 06:12, 27 February 2007 (UTC)Charleenmerced

I love the side by side illustration but it looks like the image has been tagged for speedy deletion because of the the license tag. I'm curious if there are any GNU or Public Domain version out there, like in the old French ampelography text that have lapse copy right. I'll do some digging. Agne^Cheese/^Wine 08:19, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

• The owner of the picture gave me permission to use it. I'll add that info to it and remove the tag.Charleenmerced ^Talk 13:12, 27 February 2007 (UTC)Charleenmerced

Cool! I really didn't want to lose that. It is such a neat illustration. I think the absence of a free version coupled with the owner's permission should qualify for Fair Use. However, I would definitely keep an eye on it. I've had picture "mysteriously" disappear on me due to licensing issues before. Agne^Cheese/^Wine 19:13, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

• Now the only picture that I think we really need is one of the wine in the glass so that the reader can get an idea of the color of the wine. Where would be a good place to put such a picture?Agne^Cheese/^Wine 19:13, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

I've replaced your label pic with one which includes a glass - except it's such a dark wine, it's almost impossible to see the colour! I do have a method of photographing wines for colour which I didn't have time for on this occasion, but maybe I can find another bottle... or maybe two... --mikaul 12:42, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Last week of Wine Improvement Drive

At the end of the week, we'll submit for GA status and see what get. If you've had any good Carmenere lately, be sure to swing by the talk page on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Wine/Newsletter/Wine Improvement Drive and give your thoughts and recommendation for you fellow Wine Project members. Agne^Cheese/^Wine 20:33, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

I've had a thorough look at the structure of the article and changed quite a few things. Amongst others:

• switched the "Carmenère & Merlot" and "Growth in Chile" paras around to help things 'flow' a little better
• re-jigged a few paras here and there
• fixed typos, grammar, etc
• fixed links
• added a new image for Casillero del Diablo

Hope you agree it reads a little better & you like the pic - *very* nice wine, thanks for the tip!

Good luck with the submission. --mikaul 12:36, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

• The article looks a lot better! Thanks Charleenmerced ^Talk 13:41, 1 March 2007 (UTC)Charleenmerced
• Re-structuring - should re-discovering be before growth in chile? --Charleenmerced ^Talk 19:34, 4 March 2007 (UTC)Charleenmerced

• I am sooooo done. Honestly, there is nothing else to add. Maybe a few (very few) things here and there, but nothing major. I think this article is pretty much done!!!! Can someone please check the Characteristics section to see whether it is ok? It may be a little off on the POV. --Charleenmerced ^Talk 04:29, 5 March 2007 (UTC)Charleenmerced

[edit] GA ??

First congratulations on producing what is turning out to be a very nice article. I do, however, have a couple of comments:

• I think the GA submission is premature. One of the requirements is stability, and there's no way the article can pass that criterion. There are new things being added faster than I can keep up. There's a whole page of changes just today.
• Regarding the long list of wineries that produce Carmenère. While it may be a fine piece of research, I think it detracts from the structure and flow of the article, making it cumbersome, and I wonder if it should even be there.

I think this will settle down into a nice GA article soon, but not yet. -- With best regards Steve.Moulding 23:29, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

• Steve, I agree in part. Regarding the constant adding of info - all my fault, I just found all this info that I had to add and I also restructured the page a bit. Regarding the wineries - well, the thing is that when I started I didn't know there were sooo many considering that Carmenere was thought to be extinct. I think some wineries should be there cuz some are the major producers of the grape (e.g. Casillero del Diablo). So, I guess I'll take votes. Remove or keep the wineries? I will def take out whether it is reserve or estate or etc. As a side note, I think these are pretty much all the wineries that produce Carmenere, a pretty exhaustive list, save 4-5 I may have missed. Charleenmerced ^Talk 00:58, 5 March 2007 (UTC)Charleenmerced

As a past GA reviewer, there is no need for stability concerns. Charleen's changes have been adding some interesting tidbits and stylistic tweaking. The stability concern in WP:WIAGA is primarily aimed at drastic changes, with substantial deletion of materials and edit warring. Further improvements and tweaks (especially during a GA review) are actually expected and even encouraged. More importantly, these are organic improvements and there is no present edit warring. Now in regards to the winery list, I am not a fan of them mostly for the reasons I espouse in WP:WINEGUIDE. I think at their core, a list of winery is inherently POV due to the fact that no matter how exhaustive you try to be, there will some wineries included and some not-which can be seen as endorsements or rejection of these Wineries by the article. If the winery has done something particularly notable and unique (like the first to do this or the largest to do) then that would merit inclusion. Any type of general listing should be avoided. Agne^Cheese/^Wine 05:46, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

• ok, list removed. Final copyedit needed. I would do it but I have read this thing so much that I just can't do it anymore nor would I be as efficient. I tink some tweaking may be needed in the opening paragraph (very little) jsut to make it flow better. The characs also need revising and re-discovering the grape. --Charleenmerced ^Talk 06:23, 5 March 2007 (UTC)Charleenmerced
• I tried really hard to get the 'flow' going again and it was stalling, basically (I think) because of the Chilean section. I realise this is more than a tweak but I've removed the section dedicated to Chile and merged that info into the relevant parts and it seems (to me) to read much better, without diminishing the influence of the Chilean growers. There are a few extra phrases here and there but otherwise the content is much the same as before. --mikaul 17:35, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] GA Passed

This article has passed the GA noms. The following are bot-generated suggestions for improvement.

The following suggestions were generated by a semi-automatic javascript program, and might not be applicable for the article in question.

• The lead of this article may be too long, or may contain too many paragraphs. Please follow guidelines at WP:LEAD; be aware that the lead should adequately summarize the article.^[?]
• Per Wikipedia:Context and Wikipedia:Manual of Style (dates), months and days of the week generally should not be linked. Years, decades, and centuries can be linked if they provide context for the article.^[?]
• See if possible if there is a free use image that can go on the top right corner of this article.^[?]
• Per Wikipedia:What is a featured article?, Images should have concise captions.^[?]
• There may be an applicable infobox for this article. For example, see Template:Infobox Biography, Template:Infobox School, or Template:Infobox City.^[?] (Note that there might not be an applicable infobox; remember that these suggestions are not generated manually)
• Please reorder/rename the last few sections to follow guidelines at Wikipedia:Guide to layout.^[?]
• Watch for redundancies that make the article too wordy instead of being crisp and concise. (You may wish to try Tony1's redundancy exercises.)
  • While additive terms like “also”, “in addition”, “additionally”, “moreover”, and “furthermore” may sometimes be useful, overusing them when they aren't necessary can instead detract from the brilliancy of the article. This article has 9 additive terms, a bit too much.
  • Vague terms of size often are unnecessary and redundant - “some”, “a variety/number/majority of”, “several”, “a few”, “many”, “any”, and “all”. For example, “All pigs are pink, so we thought of a number of ways to turn them green.”
• Please ensure that the article has gone through a thorough copyediting so that it exemplifies some of Wikipedia's best work. See also User:Tony1/How to satisfy Criterion 1a.^[?]

You may wish to browse through User:AndyZ/Suggestions for further ideas. Thanks, Tarret 22:30, 5 March 2007 (UTC)