Talk:Carlo Giuliani
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 |
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography. For more information, visit the project page. | ||
| Start | This article has been rated as start-Class on the Project's quality scale. [FAQ] (If you rated the article, please give a short summary at comments to explain the ratings and/or to identify the strengths and weaknesses.) |
||
 |
This article is supported by the Politics and government work group. | ||
Note: I have been forced to make major changes to this article in an attempt to bring it up to standard in terms of WP:NPOV and WP:RS
WP:RS Violations: I have been forced to remove the vast majority of the links from the article, as well as several sentences which cited their sources from the same links. They are in blatant violation of WP:RS. Read it if you don't believe me. A memorial page created by Giuliani's supporters is NOT AN ACCEPTABLE SOURCE!!! I don't know how else to say this... Likewise, neither is a German anarchist/counter-culture blog. Or a dead link to nowhere, both of which were also present. There was one legitimate source I kept, an article from an Italian daily newspaper. I attempted to fill it in as best I could with articles from The Guardian, CNN, and the BBC, since they were pretty much the only reputable sources I had access to at the time. This article could benefit from much more legitimate sourcework, but as paltry as the current sources are, they are cited, referenced, and completely in adherence to WP:RS. If you want to delete/add new ones, make certain they meet the standard!
WP:NPOV Violations: In concert with the above RS violations, the entire thing was clearly written with a pro-Giuliani pro-Anarchist slant, at the expense of the factual impartiality of the article. For example: I replaced all of the instances referring to rioters as "demonstrators". A demonstration or protest, by their usual definitions, specifically refer to a non-violent gathering. Once a demonstration or protest becomes violent (including vandalism, theft, rock-throwing, car-flipping, etc), it ceases to be demonstration or protest and becomes a riot, composed of rioters. To insinuate otherwise is to both violate NPOV and the dictionary. I also carefully distinguished between the "protesters" and "demonstrators" of the nonviolent Genoa marches and the "rioters" of the violent fringe groups.
If you have issue with the article, please bring it up here so we can discuss if before further changes are made. I have a bad feeling about this one...but I'm not one to allow an article so badly in need of Wikification to go undealt with.
Bullzeye 07:47, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
- Calm down boy. Were you there? Anti-globalization sites made by direct witnesses are not legimate sources, while CNN is one? Wasn't CNN the one to compare protests in Paris in 2005 to the Tianamen massacre? COme on!... Avoid massive rewrite, and if you have any POV problem, put a template, discuss the matter, but don't delete sources. Thanks. Giuliani was not a "violent rioter". I doubt you would find any "proof" backing that up... Tazmaniacs 17:27, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
Gianfranco, you write "no demonstrators charged with homicide - No firebombings in the square ever"; but the demonstrators who came forward to testify about his death have in fact been charged with attempted homicide, and the Piazza Alimonda have been firebombed twice. See http://www.italy.indymedia.org/news/2002/12/142458.php for the firebombing; and http://www.italy.indymedia.org/news/2002/12/124937_comment.php#128409 for the statement on the Genoa Legal Forum about the demonstrators charged with attempted homicide. Doctors were not forbidden to help him, but the confusion and chaos that surrounded the situation and the continuing clash did prevent doctors from being able to immediately tend to him.
- Well, I'm not going to discuss the eventual prestige of indimedia. For what we have to consider here, it's not a neutral source. It gives meaning to the otherwise theoretical "right of speech" and "freedom of expression". But it self-defines as "revolutionary".
- Unless you are going to enrich my knowledge, it is the only source for this news.
- After this point, let me please note that in Italy we have an increasing attention (already a deep general interest) for no-global movements and their ideas. This means that the general opinion and feeling is not against them, as the wide popular support for the last peaceful meeting in Florence showed. And the "anti-no-global" Oriana Fallaci, who is often indicated as a "serious" commenter, remained quite alone and in practice lost most of her reputation with her last disconcerting comments.
- Given all what above, and adding that we have several national newspapers and TV-news openly supporting no-global campaigns, I can actually see no danger of censorship (or false covering) on these themes, and I can see instead that some no-global themes are starting to be unexpectedly shared with extreme-right and governmental politicians too.
- In all this, I never read - anywhere, and I read a lot - of those firebombings. I have read instead many stories about what single "Genovesi" had to suffer after the incredible G8 days. For instance, let's consider how are now living those many little shop-keepers or artisans that lost their principal familiar patrimony, set on fire or otherwise vandalised during the guerrilla. This too deserves a mention, I believe. But not one word has been spent on this.
- Then, my friend, let's balance the whole: please add more neutral sources for your contribution, and we'll all have the common interest to add them to the article. On my side, I'll check them very easily and I'll be glad to verify their correctness.
- On a more general reflection, I can't tell if it's really fair, for the same memory and basic respect of himself, to make a martyr of Giuliani, who died in a situation of which he clearly wouldn't today be proud of, if the story had another ending. There is moral sufference on all sides, let's not forget that a young boy too, was forced to have his life forever conditioned by that damned afternoon. I clearly remember the "net's voice", in the following evening, that I hope you can check on Google's usenet archives.
- This is why I'm sure we won't use tendencial arguments here in the Wiki, using instead our usual objective style. --G
When someone picks up a fireextinquisher to throw it at a police officer, they aren't doing it because they under some kind of control or whatever you think must have been picking it up. HE did this because he, and everyone there, believed in what they were doing. Carlos is dead now, so you cannot possibly say what he'd feel about those events later. However, since you aren't a part of the same cause I'm in, I doubt I can ever make you understand.--FionMacCumhail 18:46, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Which happened first ?
It says here in the article that "Carlo Giuliani picked up a fire extinguisher and, apparently intending to throw it at the officers inside the police jeep, was shot in the face by one of the officers."
This suggests that he was shot as a consequence of his intention to throw the fire extinguisher, but the video documentation presented here http://www.piazzacarlogiuliani.org/carlo/iter/dvd/Quale_verita_per_Piazza_Alimonda_en.mp4 proves that it was the other way around. Apparently the officer inside the car flipped and was pointing his gun and yelling "I'll kill you all, communist bastards" afew seconds before Carlo picked up the fire extinguisher, in order to remove the threat...
so i'm not very happy with the current phrasing.
In that second picture you can see the gun pointed directly at him... so at least the claim the bullet was deflected in mid-air is probably wrong (BIG surprise).
The website you cite as "proof" is precisely the sort of utterly biased source-material Wikipedia prohibits. They don't even make the barest attempt at NPOV. If you have objective source material (from a non-biased, reliable source) to back up your material, then by all means post it and cite it. That's what we're all about. But in the mean time, I suggest you take a serious look at WP:RS and WP:NPOV before you make further edits on this topic. Bullzeye 05:33, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
[edit] "murdered anarchists"
I have removed the category "murdered anarchists", as Giuliani was NOT murdered. It's for a court to decide if someone was murdered, not for Wikipedia. And as there was no court hearing... Something Wicked 11:17, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
