Talk:Cardinal (Catholicism)

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[edit] Politician cardinals

I have added a paragraph about the politician cardinals - Wolsey, Richelieu and Mazarin. Its not meant to be a criticism of the office but I think the article needs an explanation of why three of the most famous cardinals in history were politicians more than churchmen. Edmilne 07:21, Nov 27, 2003 (UTC)


[edit] Cardinals from bishops only, did the people ever elect the Pope?

A couple questions. Are cardinals restricted to being drawn ftom the ranks of bishops by law or only by custom? Did the "people" of Rome really once elect the Pope or only a small select group such as priests, or politicians? I didn't know the common folk every had a vote in Rome. --rmhermen

In Eastern Orthodoxy and I believe in early Church history, the ordination of any bishop would require at least three other bishops; I think the number was reduced to two in later years. A single bishop could ordain a priest or deacon. But with all three offices, the consent of the people is also required; a bishop cannot be ordained without the people's "Amen"; it's an essential part of the liturgy. On a related note, I believe there was a time in the 1400's just before the Byzantine Empire fell to the turks, that some Byzantine bishops went to Rome to ask for military aid. In exchange, they agreed to adopt the filioque clause and submit themselves to the Pope. By the time those bishops returned home, the people had learned what happened and wouldn't let them off the boat, the agreement never went into effect, and Constantinople fell to the Turks instead of falling to Rome. --Wesley
Requiring the Amen for validity and requiring the actual approval of a vote of the people are, of course, different things. In the the Roman Empire there was often an acclamatio for public events - the arrival of an emperor, the appointment of an emperor, etc. We can treat that as a vote or as a public gesture under duress (sometimes we know it was that - soldiers standing around with weapons). There is a similar acclamation remaining in the Western ordination liturgies for priests and bishops, but no one pretends that the candidates are actually elected by local congregations. Liturgy and ecclesiastical organization are closely related but not identical. Unless we can find cases where men dressed for the ordination ceremony are regretfully sent back to the monastery while someone else is ordained, I think it's better to understand this 'requirement' as acclamatio and not electio. --MichaelTinkler
There is some debate about the role of lay election. Traditionally, the first 4 or 5 popes named their successors in their will. Election then followed, but was not initially limited to cardinals. Again, because of time marching on, it is hard to know preciesely how the early diocese of Rome functioned.DaveTroy 10:37, 9 December 2005 (UTC)


Well, as I understand it some Pope announced that all later cardinals would be bishops, and all later Popes have followed him by only appointing bishops as Popes; but there is nothing to stop the Pope changing his mind tomorrow and appointing a plain priest or a layperson a cardinal instead. The distinction between 'law' and 'custom' doesn't always make that much sense, especially I think in cases like this.

As to who could vote for the Pope before the cardinals could, I'm not to sure. Someone should do some research on the topic. -- Simon J Kissane


Not exactly a vote, but as a pressure group (rioting outside wherever the electors were, stoning electors as they left, etc.) they certainly had influence. I think that under the new code of canon law --voting-- cardinals may be formally restricted to being bishops. John Paul II has appointed several aging theologians to cardinalates who were not previously bishops (Jean Danielou, a Frenchman, is an example), and I'm not sure if he created them titular bishops along with cardinals to make up for it. In the case of these men they were controversial enough that the fact they were over 80 mattered. --MichaelTinkler


I think today whenever the Pope appoints a non-bishop to be a cardinal he has them consecrated a bishop first, but I'm not completely sure. -- Simon J Kissane

yep, just ran and checked online ( http://www.prairienet.org/nrpcatholic/e204-459.html#2 )
Canon 351 §1 Those to be promoted Cardinals are men freely selected by the Roman Pontiff, who are at least in the order of priesthood and are truly outstanding in doctrine, virtue, piety and prudence in practical matters; those who are not already Bishops must receive episcopal consecration.

by the way, the Pope doesn't have to be a bishop on election, either (which I knew, but had forgotten):

Canon 355 §1 It belongs to the Cardinal Dean to ordain the elected Roman Pontiff a Bishop, if he is not already ordained. If the Dean is prevented from doing so, the same right belongs to the sub-Dean or, if he is prevented, to the senior Cardinal of the episcopal order.

you are right that Canon 351 §1 states that non-bishops must receive episcopal consecration, but the Pope has the right to dispense someone from receiving it. Examples: Cardinal Dulles and Cardinal Scheffczyk asked the pope to excuse them from receiving the episcopal consecration because of advanced age. The pope accepted it. Thus those 2 are cardinals without being bishops. 143.50.212.195 15:04, 13 Mar 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Terminology

If, say, the Archbishop of Boston is a Cardinal, is it then correct to refer to him as "the Cardinal of Boston"?

S.

No. The office of Cardinal does not entail responsibilities over any particular geographic area, unlike (in most cases) the office of Bishop; hence he is not the "Cardinal of Boston". -- SJK.
You can refer to Jean-Claude Cardinal Turcotte, the Archbishop of Montreal; but not the Cardinal of Montreal. - Montréalais


[edit] List of notable cardinals?

If it doesn't already exist, would a List of notable cardinals be of any use? --KF 18:07, 22 Oct 2003 (UTC)

[edit] Naming conventions

The syntactic construction used once on this page, e.g. Jean-Claude Cardinal Turcotte, is not widely understood, and IMO worth a paragraph. I'm pretty sure i've heard the expression "cardinal archbishop" without a name; is that an error? Is "Archbishop Jean-Claude Cardinal Turcotte" better or worse than "Archbishop Jean-Claude Turcotte"?

Also, i changed a listing to

  • Thich Nhat Hanh (Thich is a title, not a name) (b. 1926) expatriate Vietnamese Buddhist religious leader and spirituality author

in List of people by name: Tf-Th#Thf - Thi and intend in List of people by name: Nh, to have

  • Nhat Hanh, Thich (Thich is a title, not a name) (b. 1926) expatriate Vietnamese Buddhist religious leader and spirituality author

By analogy with that List of people by name: Mas-Maz#Maz lists

which i'm inclined to change to

(Note he is the only Mazarin, so there is no need for a duplicate entry for people who don't know about "jules".)

The article Cardinal Mazarin begins

Jules Mazarin, born Giulio Mazarini; but best known as Cardinal Mazarin (1602 - 1661)

but am i right that

Jules Mazarin, born Giulio Mazarini; but best known as Cardinal Mazarin (or with full formality Jules Cardinal Mazarin) (1602 - 1661)

would be accurate and more thorough? --Jerzy 07:41, 2004 Jan 21 (UTC)


Neither "Archbishop Jean-Claude Cardinal Turcotte" or "Archbishop Jean-Claude Turcotte" would be correct; archbishop refers to the individual's position, while Cardinal is his title (unlike, for example, the Archbishop of Louisville, Kentucky, who would correctly be addressed as "Archbishop Thomas C. Kelly" because his title is Archbishop and his position is Archbishop). It would be correct to refer to the individual as "Cardinal Turcotte," or as "Jean-Claude Cardinal Turcotte, Archbishop of Montreal," but it would be an insult to demote him to "Archbishop Turcotte." It is, however, acceptable to refer to him as the "Cardinal Archbishop of Montreal" or as a "Cardinal Archbishop," because those terms signify that the individual is a Cardinal who is in charge of an Archdiocese. (All Cardinals are not assigned a diocese to govern.) --Essjay 03:24, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)Essjay


"Not all Cardinals are assigned a diocese" - however I understand that all Cardinals are also appointed to a parish within the diocese of Rome. Thus although they are "princes of the church" they are also humble servants of a parish. (IANARC) Albatross2147 11:15, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

While Cardinals are all ceremonially tied to particular churches or dioceses, they play virtually no role in those areas besides offering their prayers. When I made the statement "Not all Cardinals are assigned to a diocese" the context was: Not all Cardinals serve as diocean bishops, responsible for the daily functioning of a diocese. Many Cardinals, including the former Cardinal Ratzinger, now Pope Benedict XVI, served in the Roman Curia, the Vatican offices of the church. Thus, in the discussion of Archbishop v. Cardinal, this becomes important. Some Cardinals are archbishops of a particular diocese, but others are not, and you would not refer to a Cardinal as bishop or archbishop of their titular diocese. I was not in any way attempting to suggest that the Cardinals are not "humble servants." It was merely a deliniation of which titles apply to which individuals. --Essjay 22:40, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)


[edit] Some cardinals are not archbishops

Some cardinals are not archbishops due to the fact that they do not lead archdioceses, either residential or titular. Karl Cardinal Lehmann and Paul Cardinal Shan Kuo-hsi are examples, as they are respectively the Bishop of Mainz and the Bishop of Kaohsiung. Mainz was an archdiocese but was demoted in 1801; currently, its metropolitan is the Archbishop of Freiburg im Breisgau. The Diocese of Kaohsiung was erected in 1961 and hasn't been elevated yet; its metropolitan is the Archbishop of Taipei. Pmadrid 18:50, 24 May 2005 (UTC)

Additionally, Avery Cardinal Dulles is a priest, not even a bishop. Gentgeen 19:26, 24 May 2005 (UTC)
  • Terribly sorry to have made such an egregious mistake; while I was aware (and argued above) that many Cardinals do not serve as the prelate of ANY diocese (arch or otherwise), and thus are not bishops or archbishops in the diocean sense (although still of the episcopal rank), and that some of them are not of the episcopal rank, I was unaware of any Cardinals who served as bishops rather than archbishops. My peculiar experience is with the US, and there are no cardinal bishops in the US, only cardinal archbishops. (Although, there are Cardinals in/from the US who do not serve as diocean prelates.) Essjay 03:33, May 25, 2005 (UTC)


[edit] Use of "His Eminence" for deceased cardinals?

I am unclear on the appropriateness of forms of address for deceased cardinals. I know while living, they are refered to as His Eminence, and when I have edited a cardinal article, I usually begin it:

His Eminence John Cardinal Smith (born February 30, 1950) is a...

But should articles about deceased cardinals begin the same way? I guess this is a bigger question about the retension of forms of address after death — should George VI of the United Kingdom begin with "His Magesty"? The article Style (manner of address) was not totally clear on the issue.

--Eoghanacht 17:00, 2005 August 15 (UTC)

[edit] Origin of the term

Actually, I've heard a different etymological explanation for "cardinal." Cardo does not only mean 'hinge' in Latin, but also "wedge." Some scholars say that prior to 11th century spin, the term originally had a negative connotation. Cardinals were priests who were "wedged" or stuck into an appointment from the outside--a priest the Vatican appointed to a high rank in a diocese which was not originally his, for example. This is the explanation given by Diarmaid MacColloch in The Reformation, and in Princes of the Church: A History of the English Cardinals by Dominic Aidan Bellenger and Stella Fletcher (see https://www.thetablet.co.uk/cgi-bin/book_review.cgi?past-00042 ) Makrina 03:07, 2 January 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Links between popes

See my comment on the talk page about creating a list of which Pope elevated their future successors as cardinals (and any other contributions are welcome). Jackiespeel 18:29, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Discuss merge Cardinal (title) into Cardinal (Catholicism)

  • Support - Bring that info over here. The Cardinal disambig page still makes it clear what kind of cardinal you are looking for -- MrDolomite | Talk 23:45, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Support - an unsourced double is pointless, especially as it turns out to be almost not linked to Fastifex 12:08, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment: As the issue has already been noted and discussed on this talkpage, I have now redirected the other article and removed the merge tag here (which i added originally). There is no reason to keep the other article around as it would in any case end up as a redirect eventually. Anything worth merging is still available in the history. up◦land 09:20, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
If so, then you should merge it. If you don't do it when you convert it into a redirect, it's highly unlikely another random editor will. I usually assume that redirects with history have already had content merged elsewhere. Gimmetrow 03:56, 18 August 2006 (UTC
The fact that the merge has not been completed is clearly stated here for anyone to see. I don't see the point of leaving a merge tag on a page for several weeks when nobody seems willing to do the merge, and it is pretty doubtful what there is worth merging in any case. The other article is much shorter than this one, and completely unreferenced. up◦land 04:43, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

While you're thinking about merging, the Cardinal Bishop, Cardinal Priest and Cardinal Deacon articles have a lot of overlap. Is there a good reason they could not be subsections of the "orders of cardinals" section here (leaving redirects in place)? Gimmetrow 03:56, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Seeing no objections, I have merged the text of these three articles here. Much of the text was overlapping, going over the same general history for the Bishops, Priests and Deacons, discussion of titles, etc. The other three places remain as redirects. Gimmetrow 21:05, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cardinal John Doe

James-Charles Noonan writes that "it is improper to refer to a cardinal in any other form than John Cardinal Doe. The recent practice of Cardinal John Doe is improper and has no foundation in law." How recent is "recent". The order "Cardinal John Doe" is found in the early-twentieth-century Catholic Encyclopedia, e.g. "Cardinal Giovanni Battista Caprara" in the article Legate, and doubtless long before. Those who drew up the index of the electronic copy chose the form "John Cardinal Doe". It is surely they who are recent, not the encyclopedia. I am quite unfamiliar with the name "James-Charles Noonan". How authoritative is he? What law is he referring to? A Church law governing English usage in the matter? I don't believe there is such a law. Lima 04:51, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Noonan is a yank, and the book is used by some Catholic colleges in the U.S. No idea what he is referring to in the second sentence, which I included in the quote hoping someone else would have an idea. Anyway, this is a reference replacing the former vague "some authors" - is there any official authority for the "Cardinal John Doe" form either? (Both forms can be found on the Vatican site.) Gimmetrow 05:20, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, I have failed to find the form "John Cardinal Doe" as a way of referring to cardinals anywhere on the Vatican website. Without examining sublinks, I have gone through the links for each department of the Roman Curia listed in this section of the site, and have only found the "Cardinal John Doe" form (Secretariat of State: Cardinal Angelo Sodano (twice); Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith: Card. Joseph Ratzinger; Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments: Card. Francis Arinze (three times), and Card. Jorge Arturo Medina Estévez (once); Congregation for the Causes of Saints: Card. José Saraiva Martins (35 times!); etc.) Where does the site use the "John Cardinal Doe" form? Perhaps it quotes something prepared in English elsewhere, but I have failed to find any example. Is Gimmetrow perhaps thinking of the signatures appended to the end of documents? As stated, Cardinals sign as "John Cardinal Doe" or "John Card. Doe" (adding a cross only if they are in charge of a suburbicarian see or - I think, but cannot guarantee - any see). Of that there is no doubt. The only question is whether cardinals should be referred to as "Cardinal John Doe" or as "John Cardinal Doe".
That Noonan is a Yank is evident from his use of the Americanism "John Doe", in place of the "John Smith" of other English-speaking countries. ("John Doe" has the advantage of being two letters shorter than "John Smith".) I do not have a copy of the Catholic News Service stylebook, but I presume it gives the "Cardinal John Doe" rule. I, for my part, would consider that book more authoritative for correct usage in this matter than Noonan, whose idea is probably based on no more than the style for signatures. See what the US Bishops Conference Office of Media Relations says of the stylebook. The Writer's Guide, Institute on Religious Life also says it should be followed. Lima 08:23, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
What exactly does the CNS Stylebook say? It seems to me that both forms are used in English. The "John Cardinal Doe" form can occasionally be found in other languages. Some pages from vatican.va found by searching for "Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger": English: [1] [2] [3] [4] French: [5] [6] Italian: [7] [8] [9]. On brief inspection the last link appears to use both forms for Card. Hoyos on the same page. A general google search for "Bernard Cardinal Law" is informative: while most news articles say "Cardinal Bernard Law", the other form can be found in the New York Times (Dionne, 26 May 1985), the Boston Phoenix, and even Britannica. Gimmetrow 11:40, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
As usual, trow must be given to Gimmetrow. Only one of his citations (No. 8) is clearly invalid: it has the "John Card. Doe" order only in the signature of the document. The other four French and Italian citations all refer to just one and the same document, and have the "John Cardinal Doe" order only in the title that has been added on the website (by an English-speaker who believes in the Noonan order? or, perhaps more likely, by someone who moved to the top the signature that should be at the bottom?). The document itself (as distinct from the added title) does not have it in either language. No wonder, since "John Cardinal Doe" would sound very strange in those languages. There remain Gimmetrow's English citations, and he is perfectly right in saying that the "John Card. Doe" order does appear, even if only in a very few cases, on the Vatican website. Citation 1 has it only in the website title. But the December 1999 English document of the International Theological Commission (2) does have "Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger" in its body (unlike, of course, the other language versions of the same document). "John Cardinal O'Connor" has been added to the internal title of document 3 (he is, of course, referred to as "Cardinal John O'Connor" on the page that gives the French version of the same document). And whoever wrote the English version of the Jubilee programme for catechists and religion teachers on 9-10 December 2000 (4) was certainly a believer in the Noonan order. So Gimmetrow is right: the Vatican website does sometimes allow "John Cardinal Doe", even if by no means on a par with "Cardinal John Doe".
Does any reader of this page have access to the Catholic News Service Stylebook? Gimmetrow does not. Neither do I. There can be no doubt that it supports the "Cardinal John Doe" practice of Catholic News Service itself. But it would be good to know how exactly it phrases its judgement. And I think it can be counted on to have made its judgement after wider consultation than Noonan. Lima 16:16, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
The problem with the way some edits to articles relating to cardinals have been worded is that they imply, or say straight out, that the "John Cardinal Doe" form is incorrect. It's not "incorrect." One might argue that it is obsolete or that it is becoming less common, but it's clearly not "incorrect" as it's been used for hundreds of years and is still perfectly common today. (For example, the last time I was in Chicago, the cathedral had a sign listing Francis Cardinal George, in that order, as the archbishop. The Basilica of the National Shrine of the Immaculate Conception in Washington regularly noted, until his recent retirement, when Theodore Cardinal McCarrick, in that order, would be celebrating Mass.) The real issue is that an article purporting to be encyclopedic in nature should not take a position in an argumentative form. It's better to acknowledge the issue without condemning one side or the other, and indeed I think it's quite commendable to note that the difference exists. For example, the article providing a list of cardinals contained a statement about the traditional form being an "idiosyncratic" usage, and a former version of that article said that "[t]he correct order" is the "Cardinal John Doe" order notwithstanding the "John Cardinal Doe" order used throughout that article. But Wikipedia's credibility suffers if an article states (or even clearly implies) that the content of the article is wrong. Why would anyone place value on a purported encyclopedia that questions the accuracy of its own content? I realize that my comments here relate to two articles, but the two are so closely related, and the same matter was at issue in both, that the concern is valid. My other thought is that usage in other languages is irrelevant to English usage. The French put the adjective last: "transport super-sonique" rather than "supersonic transport" (referring to Concorde) or "Boulevard Rene-Levesque" rather than "Rene-Levesque Boulevard" (a street in Montreal). That doesn't mean that Wikipedia articles written in English need concern themselves with the French usage. I don't see why the usage referring to a cardinal need be subject to a different standard. 1995hoo 15:07, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
"John Cardinal Doe" may not be exactly wrong; but it has less authoritative support than "Cardinal John Doe". Lima 15:16, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
I suppose there is always the proclamation made on 19 April 2005 at the Vatican: "Annuntio vobis gaudium magnum; habemus Papam: Eminentissimum ac Reverendissimum Dominum, Dominum Josephum Sanctae Romanae Ecclesiae Cardinalem Ratzinger qui sibi nomen imposuit Benedictum XVI." They don't say: "Annuntio vobis gaudium magnum; habemus Papam: Eminentissimum ac Reverendissimum Dominum, Dominum Sanctae Romane Ecclesiae Cardinalem Josephum Ratzinger qui sibi nomen imposuit Benedictum XVI." Of course, above I did indeed make the point that the order of the wording in other languages need not and should not govern the convention used in English, but the Papal Proclamation does, in my view, constitute strong support for the argument that "Cardinal" goes immediately prior to the surname, and constitutes far stronger support than media usage. One particular reason why I believe this is that we know that there have been many other changes in the procedures surrounding the selection and inauguration of a new pope--for example, John Paul I refusing a coronation and his two successors continuing that tradition; the most recent conclave not requiring that the cardinal electors remain locked in the vicinity of the Sistine Chapel for the duration; the ringing of the bells in 2005 to confirm the white smoke--yet this custom was not changed. 1995hoo 21:27, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
Good idea. However, as 1995hoo says, the proclamation was not in English. Lima 04:09, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Incorrect date given on Stigmata movie and wrong link

"Jonathan Pryce played the fictional Cardinal Houseman in Stigmata (1995)."

The movie was released in 1999 not 1995 and also the link to "Stigmata" links to the act of stigmata rather than the movie "Stigmata"

Though the movie is about a woman who has stigmata if someone was trying to follow the link for the movie they'd get the article on the affliction (or gift if you so desire) of stigmata.

199.67.7.151 16:32, 22 September 2006 (UTC) Stonent

[edit] Bishop or cardinal?

Illustration from Les Très Riches Heures du duc de Berry.
Illustration from Les Très Riches Heures du duc de Berry.

I was checking the caption I used for an image in medieval cuisine, and I became a bit unsure of a guess I made. The person sitting to the left of the duke (in blue robe and fur hat) seems to be a man of the cloth, but is he a cardinal or a bishop, or, in fact, neither?

Peter Isotalo 14:32, 12 January 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Cardinals from other churches

I have come across references to various "senior religious persons" from churches outside the Catholic one being made cardinals (Britannica Yearbooks) - how many are there/have there been, and what is their position? (Can they attend papal conclaves for example?) Jackiespeel 16:52, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Do you mean Cardinal_(Catholicism)#Other_Cardinals? Gimmetrow 22:19, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
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