Talk:Caphtor

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[edit] "the isles of the Caphtorim"

The text reads "Cyprus and Crete together were known as 'the isles of the Caphtorim'" Where is the phrase "the isles of the Caphtorim" to be found? When I read "were known as"—the passive of non-attribution—I am generally skeptical. Who "knew" the two islands as "the isles of the Caphtorim"? --Wetman 01:51, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

• I used the phrase as a paraphrase. While no one "knew" this, both isles have been cited as the Caphtorim's origin. I was attempting to show that it is possible that they both were, without original research or toe-stepping. -- Auric 06:14, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

"Were known as 'the isles of the Caphtorim'" normally means to suggest that they were known as the "isles of the Caphtorim". Can this misleading suggestion be improved?--Wetman 17:32, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

• I thought I was the one who added that, a long time ago, and it may well require some editing... I'll see if I can find it again, but I think my source was R.H. Charles, commenting in his footnotes on a reference to the "Islands of Kaftur" being an ancient name for Cyprus and Crete... I did also notice that Columbia Encyclopedia's online entry for 'Caphtor' reads: "(kăf`tôr), in the Bible, home of the Philistines before they migrated to Canaan. Its inhabitants are called Caphtorim. Caphtor has been identified with both Crete and Cyprus." --ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 19:00, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

• • Sorry, I was sure I added that. Let that be a lesson to check the history before commenting. --Auric 04:31, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Surely everyone understands that one scholar's identifying Caphtor with Crete in one instance, and another's with Cyprus in another article doesn't create "isles of the Caphtorim"? Theories of Caphtor serve many purposes and attract undisciplined readers and more than their share of zanies: we should be all the more careful not to invent. --Wetman 15:48, 3 April 2006 (UTC) --Wetman 15:48, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

The answer will be found in the Charles footnote; just give me a chance to get to a library! Unfortunately, while most of his translations are online, the accompanying footnotes are not; this is a great shame because they are the best part and are quite comprehensive... I'm pretty sure he alluded the phrase "Isles of the Caphtorim", and so if this name does appear in any older literature, his footnotes will not fail to cite it, because as I said, they are quite comprehensive! Meanwhile I will see if I can find my photocopy somewhere around here! ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 16:35, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

The assertion has been marked as needing a reference in the meantime. --Wetman 21:07, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rework

This article needs reworking. Too tired right now, will do more tomorrow.

To Do list:

• Cover traditional identification as Cappadocia (i.e Damietta / Caphutkia in Egypt not the one in Anatolia) - Josephus, all the Aramaic Targum's, Benjamin of Tudela, even Jerome if I remember.
• Cover later confusion with Cappadocia in Anatolia.
• Cover connection with Egyptian Keftiu and Semitic Kaptara
• Cover conjectures about these being Crete and or Cyprus and subsequent dogmatic translation as Crete.

IMNHO stuff purely relating to the people called Caphtorites and what texts say about them belongs in the Caphtorites article while this Caphtor article should focus on the locality and its identification. Kuratowski's Ghost 01:57, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Caphtorites really should be merged here IMO. The two topics aren't really separable given there is little data on either one. I'll add a merge tag for discussion. ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 04:57, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Done John D. Croft 09:07, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

The confident assertion here that "The name means chaplet or crown" does not even tell us what language is being adduced. Not very reassuring. --Wetman 02:30, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

In Hebrew the word means a knob or knob-like button. "Chaplet or crown" would be correct if referring to a knob-like structure not a crown that a person wears. No idea if the usage as a place name is older or later than this meaning. Kuratowski's Ghost 09:58, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

I have inserted the Amos quote, where Caphtor is unequivocally a place, and flagged the assertion that it means a knob. --Wetman 21:07, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "The name has been compared to Egyptian Keftiu and Mari Kaptara"

Says who? I can understand the possible connection with the Egyptian term and I am sure that will be possible for us to find many references of scholars having made the comparison. But Mari !? By following the wikilink and searching on a map, I found that it's some less known Finno-Ugric language spoken by some 600000 speakers in some territory about 600 km east of Moscow in Russia!

This "Mari connection" was introduced by this edit. Could this have been the case of some editor (possibly with command of the aforementioned Mari language) who noticed the apparent similarity and suggested a connection? If so, that would be (blatant, in my opinion) Original Research.

Alternatively, since the term Mari was not originally a wiki link (it was made into a wikilink pointing to the aforementioned language by this anonymous edit, is it possible that something else was originally meant and this was introduced by a failure to disambiguate?

In any case I am proceeding to flag that particular bit as (possibly) {{original research}} and {{uncited}}. Unless someone justifies its inclusion within the next few days, I am subsequently going to remove it altogether. It having once been there will be obvious to future editors from this talk page anyway (should anyone find a reason to reinstate it). Contributor175 02:42, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Sorted. The Mari in question is surely the ancient city of Syria where many inscribed tablets have been found, and not the obscure modern Finnish tribe... ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 03:03, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for sorting this out in such sort notice. Contributor175 03:20, 26 January 2007 (UTC)