Talk:Canute the Great
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[edit] Age of King Knut?
I want to propose a theory, which I hope some people will comment on.
If Canute the Great was at a young age on the death of his father, and the English conquest which he led, it is certainly a point which will be significant for interpretations of his deeds throughout his entire life, as a novice at the begining, rather than the cream of the crop through and through. If he was ten years older, the story differs dramatically, with successful wars and battles, led by the man himself, rather than by the boy sat on the sidelines, to be king out of his league, rather than Viking lord. If we consider the picture we see drawn, as drawn by the Victorians, tales of him as a light-headed fool certainly aren't surpriseing. Victorians were so civil, and the Queen as Empress, leader of the Empire's conquests, was no warrior-king ideal, while Alfred the Great was their hero of the dark ages, and the bastion against the cruel pirates of Scandiavia to boot.
Evidencially, as Cnut let his second wife Emma's son Harthacnut be his heir, and the first wife Aelfgifu was a 'handfast' wife he apparantly treated as a northern queen, he was entirely ready to let her son Sweyn rule Norway, as the deal with Emma was, on some level, an attempt to stem the Norman avalanch poised to break on England if left alone. It must be true, if he sent Sweyn and Aelfgifu to rule Norway together, in 1030, when the boy was nearly twenty, younger or older, he meant the mother to be the mentor, rather than himself. I reckon this is because he was preparing to die, of old age, at 50. His trip to Rome after 1030, and the death, which Norweigians were anticipant of, in Shafstbury, a monastery with much of his patronage, suggest, he was not unhealthy, but his health was at an end. If it is true Sweyn and Aelfgifu were driven away by the Norwegians before Cnut's death, it is likely they knew he was on his last legs, and the likelihood of retaliation, unlikely. It fits with an old man trying to reconcile his wives, the first's sons he let rule in the north, Harald Harefoot probably to be Earl of Northumbria, and the Kingdom of Norway for his first son, and the second's, Harthacnut, true to his word, he let rule Denmark and England. If only the Norwegians were less sore on taxes, it might have been made a success.
WikieWikieWikie 15:28, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Canute v Cnut v Cunt
Which spelling is more authentic, Canute or Cnut? I heard that he was in his day called Cnut, but people changed his name to Canute, due to similarity to the word "cunt". Is there any truth in this? -- Anonymoues 09:47 Oct 27, 2002 (UTC)
I have studied Knud d. Store/Canute the Great quite a bit in both Danish and English litterature and I have never seen it written as "Cnut" before. If it is indeed some medieval British or Danish form of the name it should be specified. In any event, the Danish name "Knud" is more relevant than some medieval British form of it. Celcius 23:44, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
This Danish king is in Denmark called "Knud" ("Knud den Store" = "the Great"). In Latin sources he is called "Canutus", see http://magnificat.ca/cal/engl/01-19.htm
In English he is usually called "Canute". The suggestion about "cunt" has probably litte to recommend it.
S.
I'm surprised not to find vandalism in the page history changing the name from "Cnut" to "Cunt"... 204.52.215.107 01:48, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
In all the history books I've read it's Cnut (as in the title of M.K. Lawson biography, Rumble's collection of papers &c. The ODNB entry is under Cnut [Canute]. Probably most people would search for Canute, as that's the spelling schoolchildren come across when learning about him trying to hold back the tide, but more properly the article should be Cnut i reckon
I'm a History stupid in England and I have to say I'd never even seen the 'Canute' variation until just now on Wiki. It's always spelled 'Cnut' or 'Knut' as in Knutsford, which I happen to live very near to. I also think the article should be changed to Cnut.
[edit] Two errors
There are at least two serious errors in the article Canute the Great. (1) Swein was a Christian, at least in name, though he tolerated paganism; (2) Canute the Great must not be confused with St. Canute. (Ch. De Wolf)
In fact he was a great benefactor to the church, espeicially New Minster in Winchester although he made grants to Canterbury as well. He also made at least one trip to Rome - to attend the coronation of German emperor Conrad II. Whether or not he was a devoted Christian is another matter. M
[edit] Harold or Harald?
Was he preceded by Harold II or Harald II in Denmark? Both spellings are used in the article and only one is presumably correct. -- SGB
I think Harold is an Anglo Saxon name. As no Danish king prior to Canute ruled England, Harald would probably be the name of Canute's Danish predecessor.
In 1066 Harold II Godwinson, the last Anglo Saxon king of England fought against Harald Hardradi, the Norwegian king who claim the English throne. Here the difference between the Scandinavian and the Anglo Saxon names is seen.
[edit] Canute's Mother
I am not native speaker, but a lot of sentences made no sense to me. Also, was Canute mother Gunhilda or Sigrid? If Sigrid (as i read in Polish sources) then he couldn't be born in 995 (Since she married Sveyn later). Szopen
Regarding Gunhilda and Sigrid, Sweign was first married to Gunhilda and divorced her and sent her back to Poland when he decided to marry the Swedish Queen? Sigrid. The feelings of her sons Harald and Canute are clear in that once Sweign died, they returned their mother to Denmark. (Anon?)
Sigrid was EITHER Swedish QUeen, OR Polish princess. See the talk on page on Sigrid for that. Szopen 14:26, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
Swiatoslawa, or Saum-Aesa, was obvioously the Polish princess, and the name change to Gunhilda obviously only happens to people marrying across a language barrier. Sigrid the Haughty, married Sweyn Forkbeard after the birth of Harald and Cnut, before 994. It is a good point that (Anon?) puts forward, Harald and Cnut are indeed said to have 'rescued' their mother from Boleslav of Poland, her family, and the only reason must be that she was sent away from Sweyn's court with the arrival of his Swedish wife.
WikieWikieWikie 15:56, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Clapha Canute
Regarding this recently added sentence: "His first name is Clapha, and as he set his base up on the grounds which Clapham in London is built on, the town was named after him."
I'm not saying it isn't true, but I couldn't find any evidence, and really I'm not even entirely sure what it means. Everyking 18:02, 11 Sep 2004 (UTC)
[edit] Concubinage
Aelfgifu of Northampton is described as a "concubine." I was under the impression that she and Canute had a "Danish" or "handfast" marriage which form was not recognized by the Church. That lack of recognition wouldn't make her a concubine, though. Plus, Canute finnaly had to formally repudiate her to make everyone happy, which I don't think he would have found it necessary to do had she been only a concubine. Anyone? --Michael K. Smith 02:31, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
In all the books I have read, including an excellent recent one on Emma of Normandy by Harriet O'Brien, the view that Cnut did have some kind of official marriage to Aelfgifu of Northampton prevails. Certainly no-one seems to have questioned Harold Harefoot's legitimacy when he seized the throne upon Cnut's death (although legitimacy was not such an issue in the succession at that time).
[edit] old faith
The intro para says he "was an avid supporter of the old faith". What's the "old faith"? – Quadell (talk) (bounties) 13:39, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
Scandinavian mythology....eg Odin, Thor, etc
He was an avid supporter of the new faith too. That means he was pragmatic towards religion, as he was, wisely, able to merge the two as best suited his nation(s). WikieWikieWikie 15:56, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit] DoB
from the ODNB, 2004 The poem Knutsdrapa, composed for Cnut by the Icelandic skald Ottar the Black, says that Cnut started his military career unusually young, and mentions an attack on Norwich perhaps identifiable with that by his father in 1004. If so, Cnut might have been born in the early 990s or a little before; if not, his earliest campaigns may have been in 1013 and 1014, which would suggest a birthdate of c.1000. The thirteenth century Icelandic Knytlinga Saga, which wrongly states that he ruled England for twenty-four years, reports that he was thirty-seven when he died, so I think that it's a bit blasé to just state that he was born in 995 - is this supposed to be a happy compromise? It doesn't really fit with either estimation. Also, one of the things I really object to on wikipedia is the way it makes assertions of right and wrong facts with regard to periods or people that we really have very little idea about, as well as much evidences in contradictions, which there is much historiographic debate on, which requires proper analysis. It distorts our idea of the whole area of study, and so if we always listen to popularism, then the truth will never be found, as the facts are ultimately already falsehoods.
I totally agree. Maybe the remains of King Canute and Queen Emma, also with Harthacnut, in a chest at Winchester Cathedral, could be studied, for an age authenitication. It is a remarkable stroke of luck for the bones of a man whose age when he did the things he did changes the history of a nation, to be amoung the few survivors of the last thousand years of strifes.
WikieWikieWikie 15:57, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
- Ca. 995 is what at least one of my academic sources estimates. The problem with the bones is that we don't know which are whose; they all got thrown about during some uprising or another and then interred again. In any case carbon dating is not a very precise tool. Haukur 12:47, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
It is expliciltly unknown. If the bones are there, I suppose people have tried yet failed, at the collection of the data nescessary. If anyone can, maybe they should try looking at the things we know about the bones in the collection, all in caskets with names, and the people the names belong to, and the information might be enough to at least find a better estimate of Cnut. Radiocarbon should put them in the right half of a century, or in the correct decade evem, and the examination of skeletons is very accurate, too accurate, maybe.
Anyway, it is irresponsible to put the wrong date on the site, even if it is so widely accepted. The point at the beggining of this section sums up my opinion, and the ??? should be used to avoid falsehoods. At least a wider approximation, yet that is worse form that question marks, these even direct to a quirky little page especially for the facts of unknowns.
WikieWikieWikie 15:57, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit] The Emperor of the North?
This was added to the article:
"On his throne, when at the zenith of his dominion, he was dubbed, by the Skalds, poets who sung his praises, the Emperor of the North, and the King of England most worthy of the title Bretwalda."
Quite a lot of skaldic poetry on Knútr is preserved but I'm not aware of any that calls him "Emperor of the North" or "Bretwalda". Haukur 09:41, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
It should be quoteable, I agree. I knowI read it was the proclamation on Cnut, in a recent biograhphy, M.J.Trow's, Cnut: Emperoror of the North, with no evidence which supports it, while Cnut's age is a main theme also, which I find to be incredulous. I think M.K Lawson's biography, which refuses any comments on Cnut's age at all, refrains from it all together. Point conceded. I will try an edit with only facts, yet it must be, only, the facts.
WikieWikieWikie 15:58, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Removed paragraph
I removed a paragraph. Here are some of the problems I see with it.
Cnut's mother was Gunhilde (once Swiatoslawa, daughter of Mieszko I and Dubrawka of Poland), his father's first wife (his second wife was Sigrid the Haughty, and the marriage bore five daughters).
- This is by no means certain, the issue of Svein's wife(s) is complicated; Swiatoslawa was Canute's sister and there's no direct evidence that it was also his mother's name. Haukur
Swiatoslawa is a useful conjecture, which happily avoids the real complication of whether it was either Gunhild or Sigrid the Haughty which gave birth to Forkbeard's sons. It is reasonably certain a Polish princess was the mother of Canute the Great. I agree Gunild is not the best answer to the question, but the use of Swiatoslawa is within reason.
WikieWikieWikie 16:12, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
His early years were in a culture with powerful ties to the religion of the past, as well as the future, and the Baltic Sea was a mysterious harbour to ancient faiths of anscestral beliefs, which variously held on, until the Clergy's words, and the Crusaders' swords, finally spread the Church's doctrines across Europe's entirety.
- Cnut was a third generation Christian; I don't think there's any evidence that Norse paganism had an effect on him. The rest of the paragraph is a digression. Haukur
His sister was in a marriage with Erikr Hakonson, and the Norwegians were still heavily pagan, as well as the Northumbrians, whom Cnut thought it allright if should rule them as the Earl of Northumbria when he divided the country into it's four Earldoms. It is probable the Scandinavians held on their pagan beliefs strongly. Even to this day!
WikieWikieWikie 16:12, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
- By most accounts Eiríkr converted to Christianity (at least formally) around or after the Battle of Svolder. He certainly ruled Northumbria as a Christian lord. His name is even in the liber vitae of Thorney. I'll concede that there were no doubt some pagan Norwegians as a part of Cnut's forces and many of those who had been baptized had probably a rather superficial knowledge of Christianity. Haukur 16:17, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
Indeed. If Eirikr was Christian, I am sure it was simply in lieu with the Danish influence, as it was in Denmark itself. In my view, Chritianity was clearly spread in Demark through the Holy Roman Empire, which surely meant it was 'do or die' for the Danes, under threat of Europe's original Crusaders; Germano-Franko empires' imperiums. If this is the case, I am sure any Christianity, although clearly of some, real appeal, was only a flirtation with the wider world beyond Scandinavia, which, I stress, even today keeps it's pagan roots at heart.
WikieWikieWikie 19:22, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
Cnut probably spent some years on Polish soil, maybe at the Jomsviking stronghold Jomsborg.
- We don't even know if Jómsborg existed. Haukur
If it did it is probably right in the middle of Pomerania.
WikieWikieWikie 16:12, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
His mother's mother, Dubrawka, was brought from a nunnery for a pagan marriage and the Slavic princess wed to the principal Duke of Poland, Mieszko, who later adopted Christianity, when the weight it bore on his domain was clearer. This, in conjunction with his father's haughty Christian faith, and the Viking beliefs, was probably the foundation of Canute the Great's pragmatic attitude to religion, happy to accept praises of his poets, Skalds, in verse with pagan connotations, as well as prayers. At a vernacular melt-point, England held up it's Viking sovereignty glady, and the Church overlooked his two wives, always in support of a ruler with a disposition to patronise it.
- I don't quite understand where this is going. And some of the surviving skaldic poetry on Cnut is explicitly Christian. Haukur 20:36, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
I was aiming for some patroniseation of the Church here, which I thought was quite clever (by the suggestion he did not take the institution which almost kept his granparent apart seriously). In terms of the skaldic verse I meant it included both pagan praise, and the prayers, with Churches maybe experiencing similar mixes of influence in his time.
WikieWikieWikie 16:12, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
- I'll write a section on Cnut's skalds. Would that please you? :) Haukur 16:17, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
Oh yes indeed! I am particularly interested in the Knytligasaga, or Knutsdrapa, whichever one is by the Skladic poet, Otarr the Black, and the verse in particular is the one which states Cnut was at a very young age as he set out to war, and the 'Destroyer of the Chariot of the Sea'. It says this, and the verse, in my view, with previous allusion to the young, unchiefly, then reitterates another point, as it proclaims another stage in Cnut's life, as, 'Chief', readying 'arrowed ships', and the 'red shields', for war, at which he was 'daring beyond measure'. I suppose more daring than the measure of bravery he displayed as he was destroying sea chariots (?). I am not sure if Ottar the Black was contemporary with Cnut, but I think he was, which means a proper examination of the poem he produced is very important, yet if he was not, it is still vital to, 'get it', properly. It is this evidence on which the presumption of Cnut's age rests, almost entirely, I think.
WikieWikieWikie 19:14, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Crowning
At an assembly at Trondheim, he was officially crowned King.
- Which source claims he was crowned and not just hailed in the traditional way? Fornadan (t) 15:30, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Comments on Comments
Which of these is better for an introductory paragraph on Cnut the Great, only 'Emperor of the North', as full of interest as he is full of controversial analysis, the first or the second?
- Canute (or Cnut) I, or Canute the Great (Old Norse: Knútr inn ríki, Danish: Knud den Store, Norwegian: Knut den mektige) (ca. 995 – November 12, 1035) was a Danish king of England, Denmark and Norway and governor or overlord of Schleswig and Pomerania.
- Cnut I, or Canute the Great, (Danish: Knud den Store, Old Norse: Knútr inn ríki, Norwegian: Knut den mektige), ??? – November 12, 1035, was a king of England, of Denmark, of Norway, parts of Sweden, as well as overlord of Schleswig - in treaty with the Holy Roman Emperors, Henry II, and, Conrad II - and the Pomeranians also. He was a Viking prince, with some connections to legengendary Jomsvikings of Jomsborg, known as, in some circles, the Emperor of the North.
-
- I'm going to go with choice 1 - it's short and to the point, doesn't misspell "Legendary", and doesn't have any intensely awkward constructions. john k 11:34, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
You seem to know your stuff, legenend. Is there any middle ground you feel might be drwan between them? If you or anyone cares to offer any alternate versions, it will be a great help to this Cnut enthusiast!
WikieWikieWikie 15:46, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Alternate spelling
Why is Cnut also spelt Canute? Is it to help with pronunciation, or so people don't confuse it with the c-word? Scott Gall 04:35, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
Knut is the best way it may be spelled. The 'Ca', seems to be an attempt at a 'K', of course, while 'C' is maybe insufficient, which means Knut is the best linguistic compromise.
WikieWikieWikie 11:38, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit] The Empire of the North!
One of these maps should be the one the article uses! Which one? One is based on ideas of 'some of Sweden' a hundred years ago, while the one with the extra bit of Sweden is based on an offical Danish site, today. If you look at the site, which is the source link for it, especially you, Haukurth, it shows that the 'some of Sweden' which is, Blekinge, was a conquest of Harald Bluetooth, integrated into the Skanian region, while Sigtuna is a bit of the Emperor of the North's domain, in a different colour. If you want to disagree with the Danish official historians, maybe incling bias, maybe better informed, prey tell which authority beats this government's. I clearly want to side with the Danes, as their map portrays Cnut as the Emperor of the North much more. WikieWikieWikie 08:43, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
- The latest research indicates that the old supposition that Cnut held Sigtuna as some point cannot be sustained. Although some coins from there read "CNUT REX SW" they are now held to be only partially adapted copies of Cnut's English coins, something common in mediaeval times. For more details see the article on Cnut's coinage in The Reign of Cnut: The King of England, Denmark and Norway, ISBN 0718502051 Haukur 09:21, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
- I feel this explaination is insufficient, yet it intersts me. If a coin is "CNUT REX SW", surely it means, even though adapted from an English type, it is not ENG, but SW. If is in Sigtuna too, the capitol region, it means Cnut was on the throne. It is maybe evidence though that he was a King of Swedes as well as King of English, Danes and Norwegians, separately, maybe not one dominion at all, yet still an Empire, according to English constition anyway. I will buy this book, which is on my Amazon wishlist at the moment, although it discourages me that it seems to be a sceptical author, wishing to downplay the life of the greatest King of England, yet again, still. WikieWikieWikie 09:27, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
-
- Your reasoning represents the traditional theory. The book is a collection of essays by several authors on different aspects of Cnut's reign. Downplaying Cnut is by no means its theme, I'm sure you'll find a lot to enjoy. There are photographs of Cnut's bones there, for example. Haukur 09:56, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
Well, I will read it with an open mind, yet if the coin study reasons on the side of the sceptical, rather than the creditorical (my word), I am unlikely to pay it it's own credit. I like to think, with Cnut's position, as the greatest Viking ruler ever, in consideration, it is actually unlikely a move on Sweden was off the cards. While if Cnut was conspired against by the Swedish sovereign, he was certainly, likely, to be conquering with his forces in the Sigtuna area. I was under the impression, though, it was the unconventional, maybe controversial, theory, because the original map here is pretty old, and the other maps I can find leave Sigtuna out, and the offical Danish historical site is apparantly newer, although the theory may be old in Denmark, and the rest of Scandinavia.
I will look at the bones carefully too. I assume you read this book rescently, Haukurth, as the comment you made on the bones being lost in a muddle must be now not the case, but the case is still open on the age question. Is there a bone study? I have actually seen an Emma and Cnut picture, their bones in one box, although to see one with the bones set out on a table is the next step for any answer. I reason Cnut was 50 at death. As the idea a twentyish young man was an elect warrior-king, allowed to lead a successful invasion of England by the Vikings, is, unlikely, and the idea Eric of Lade was a mastermind behind Cnut's successes, is, unlikely, both the reasons being the fact Vikings were individuals, and the rulers were the strongest people, front-line-fighters, unlikely to allow a potential hamperance in their structures. It is likely, as the apparant equal, or brother, of Edmund Ironised, which is a point mentioned in the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle, I think, to do with the treaty at the Forest of Dean, Cnut was the same age, thirtyish, on the year of his claim to the English throne, 1016. Which means he was twenty years older in 1036, at 50. It all ties together with this age in consideration, ten years younger is significant.Cnut's death at Shaftsbury suggests old age was the cause, while the Norweigians got wind of his situation prior to his death. 40 seems to me to be too young for a man to die of old age, Cnut was clearly fit, yet still, if he was just a royal toff in tow with a large piece of the pie, maybe he was unfit. It is unlikely this was the case though.
WikieWikieWikie 09:50, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
- The bones are all mixed up, as I explained earlier, but the book shows pictures of the contents of the chests. Haukur 09:53, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
I see. It seems as though the Cnut bones may be separable from the Emma bones though, for an age anylysis. I think it is nescesary for a comprehensive study of the Winchester Cathedral bones. It is a stroke of luck they survive, after Reformation, and the Roundheads. If a few male skeletons exists of the ages 40-50, I suppose it is down to physical identification.
A description of Cnut exists. The Knytlinga Saga tells.
- Knutr was expetionally tall and strong and the handsomest of men exept for his nose, which was thin, high-set, and rather hooked. He had a fair complexion and a fine thick head of hair. His eyes were better than those of other men, being both more handsome and keener sighted.
Of these descriptions, hight, strength, and the high set, thin nose, should be apparant in the bones. I personally trust Norse Sagas on their accuracies - if embellishment and the tendancy to paint pictures of obscure aspects to the stories are a fact, memory and the traditions of poets to pass real history on, are facts also. I got this out of M.J Trow's, Cnut: Emperor of the North, which is really quite good, apart from the biographical slant which fully embraces Cnut as a teenager in 1014, a near crime (although I like it's style, and the fact is slightly in question), which M.K Lawson's, Cnut: England's Viking King, is fully innocent of. Anyway, this description is all there is, while the coin apparantly corroborates it. The bones to compare include 6 men, Cnut, Hardecnut, Edward the Confessor and William Rufus number amoungst them. Edward the Confessor was 60ish, William Rufus in his twenties, as well as Harthacnut, with two more then which might be similar of age range to Cnut, while if they are short and fat, or completly flat nosed, only Cnut's remain.
WikieWikieWikie 10:53, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
I just read on, and the bones are slightly more muddled, and the sets less some, or something. It is a little confusing, with descriptions of past observances of the bones, and the present state the bones are in left non descript. I suppose if the twelve names are not all skulls in the boxes, Cnut's may be lost completely, although, if the picture is after all of Cnut's skull, and the type of nose the Norse Saga tells of the same, a skeleton might be put together, at least partially, while the skull may be enough anyway.
WikieWikieWikie 11:23, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
I can actually see the high set, nose ridge. It is definitely the skull of a big man. It looks like the teeth are smashed, although a jaw floating round could be Cnut's, and the teeth are the best way to tell an age. I can't tell any age, though it is definitely fully grown. I think a skeletal reconstruction, if posibile, is the way for a truely positive result. Somebody get those bones out of the dust and solve this case.
WikieWikieWikie 11:33, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Canute the Great#Family tree
Why does it need clean up? In the context of this article or generally? I think you may have plonked that tag on it while I was editing it and it wasn't at its best. {{User|Neddyseagoon}} 16:14, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Sigtuna?
WikieWikieWikie recently re-added that Canute was king of Sigtuna, without adding references. Haukur pointed out above that this is contentious. Is there evidence for this statement, or should the old version be restored? Additionally, it appears he ruled other parts of Sweden as well; the way WikieWikieWikie has it phrased now makes it sound like he ruled only Sigtuna. This needs to be corrected.--Cúchullain t/c 20:38, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
Other recent additions need to be checked out as well, both for factual accuracy and to clean up the wording. I restored the intro to a previous version that was worded better and included all the same info, someone will need to go over the rest of the article as well. I also restored the birth date to ca. 995, which WikieWikieWikie admitted on my talk page was a convention. Is there great dispute on this? If so, it needs to be mentioned in the article, and whatever is done, the date should not be replaced with question marks. This is bad form. --Cúchullain t/c 18:05, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
Maybe I am a bit too adamant on the Sigtuna thing. I must say, though, the Swedish kingdom was only in its fledging state, and lands in the south were Danish territory as the people at the time saw it. See, [[1]], as well as, [[2]], which show, clearly, that Skane was Danish since 899, a time when the Sweden of today was still a patchwork of petty kingdoms, and, that Sweden was a kingdom in 995, which means any conquest of the capital region means the conqueror should be seen as the king. Sigtuna was, as the wiki page, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sigtuna, shows, the capital region.
WikieWikieWikie 18:35, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
Additionally, with the risk of over adamancy on the rulership of Sigtuna, and the Swedish kingdom (main part of at least), if the Letter of March 1027, written by the man himself, says, ruler of the Swedes, and the Skanian dominion was Danish, through and through, it can only be Sigtuna to which he refers. It is contentious. Although the situation seems to be that he was under threat from the Swedes, and the Norwegians, even in Denmark, with attacks by the sea. Sigtuna is clearly a contender for the origin of the threat, along with Norway, and the defeat of Cnuts enemies, which he mentions in the Letter, must mean this threat was at an end, and the threateners dealt with. Evidence exists for his dominion, even beyond Skane and Sigtuna, too, which justifies the title REX SW.
WikieWikieWikie 14:31, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
- If there is contention, we need to identify it. If the Sigtuna thing is something that is really discussed by scholars, it needs to be properly sourced. If it's only your interpretation, then it should not be mentioned.--Cúchullain t/c 18:15, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
- I haven't read through the long posts here, but I noticed the question about Sigtuna. For what it is worth; Historisk Atlas Danmark, ed. by Jette Kjærulff Hellesen and Ole Tuxen, Copenhagen: G.E.C. Gads forlag (1988) shows a map titled "Empire of Canute the Great 1016-1035" (page 10, map "e") which shows England (labelled 1016-35), Norway (labelled 1028-35), Denmark (labelled 1018-35). The same map shows a region roughly bordered by the modern towns of Uppsala, Örebro, Gothenburg, Nässjö and Oskarshamn. This indicated region in simply labelled "Sweden ?". The accompanying text clarifies: "The information in Encomium Emma source [clamining] that Canute the Great should have ruled Scotland are doubtful and these regions are not shown. His reign in Sweden is seen (afspejlet) by coins struck in his name struck in Sigtuna, but it can not be defined better in place or time. The references section (p. 280) gives the following sources behind the map: Brita Malmer: Mynt och människor, 1968, pp. 139-45; Aksel E. Christensen: Vikingetidens Danmark, 1969, pp. 260-71; Danmarks Historie, ed. by Aksel E. Christensen, H.P. Clausen, Svend Ellehøj and Søren Mørch, vol I, 1977, pp. 186-89; Aksel E. Christensen: Knud den Store, Dansk biografisk leksikon [a reference book containing biographies of famous Danes], 3. ed., vol. VIII, 1981, pp. 56-58. The Great Danish Encyclopedia notes in the end of his article: Han vandt også indflydelse i Sverige; de svenske mønter slået i hans navn, som man har fundet, er dog antagelig blot lokale kopier af hans engelske mønter. ("He also gained influence in Sweden; the finds of Swedish coins struck in his name are, however, likely to be simple local copies of his English coins.") The same book's entry on Sigtuna is very short and mentions that Olof Skötkonung stuck coins in the town but it does not mention Canute. This is all I know about this topic. It looks like this theory is disputed but that the author(s) of the map in Historisk Atlas Danmark based it on the coin finds. Valentinian T / C 20:50, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
I have not personally seen a definitive answer to this question. It is definitely a topic of debate though, although no clear evidence (written) survives which can point either way. Unless the 1027 Letter of Cnut's is used, and the coins, as well as pointers that the battle at Holy River was fought at a river near Stockholm, skant other contemporary evidence survives. This is the reason, as well as tactical necessities, which I believe Sweden was under Cnut's rule, albeit obscurely, today. I will endeavor to source as much as I can.
WikieWikieWikie 21:45, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
- If there are no reliable secondary sources, it is original research on your part to include the material. From what you are saying, it seems we need to remove the claim entirely.--Cúchullain t/c 23:15, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
There you go. I don't know why I didn't just put these refences in before, I have had the book for ages. That is, Cnut: England's Viking King, by the expert on the middle ages, M.K. Lawson, and the pages I reference 95-97 cover the argument on the domains Cnut held in the north pretty thoroughly. Graslund, on the other hand, is an archaeologist as far as I can gather, and the information he provides seems to me as pretty reliable, although I have not read the Scandia article myself, which cover controversy on the Helgea A battle, specifically. I will definitely reference alot more soon.
WikieWikieWikie 16:11, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
- It appears, given the information Valentinian has brought up, that it is at best contentious whether or not Canute ruled in Sigtuna. WikieWikieWikie admits that he hasn't even read the article he gave as a source for that; I'm betting it doesn't even say definitively that Canute ruled Sigtuna. Saying he may have, or that he had some influence there, is entirely different, and it's dishonest for us to claim unequivocally that he ruled over Sigtuna in the face of the contradicting sources. This needs to be taken care of.--Cúchullain t/c 21:12, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
-
- This area is out of my normal area of expertise. I vaguely remember hearing this story a few times but that's about it. Dansk Udenrigspolitiks Historie ("A History of Danish Foreign Policy") volume I (Konger og Krige) must have more information, but I've never read this particular volume. Valentinian T / C 21:31, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
I can only agree with Cuchullain as far as the fact it is wrong to claim an unlikelihood as a fact. It is however extremely likely that Sigtuna was at some point under the control of Cnut. Coins minted with REX SW, though not necessarily entirely accurate, mean, if they were minted in the vicinity of Sigtuna, by a monier previously on the payroll of Anund Jacob, although with CNUT on the coins, this area was his. The inaccuracy only goes so far as the fact Cnut probably never was in complete control of Sweden, although Anund Jacob was definitely on the defensive, and the forces under Cnut's command supreme. I never claim that Sweden was his, only that the capital region was, and the claim he was not so far off. I will concede there was never a coronation, as we know it today, although all of Sweden must have made some truce of fealty to avoid conquest. Cnut was, I believe, considerably aged, and the lands of Sweden far too exspansive to conquer fully. Sigtuna though, was enough to drive the point home far enough, if not a deal further.
I only wish I could find the website I link as the reason for the doctor on the map. It was very clear, as well as a recent interpretation of history. On the site it said it was an offical Danish goverment map, which was part of a sequence of all the lands Denmark ever held.
WikieWikieWikie 19:37, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
Surely this is a case of innocent untill proven guily, or right until proven wrong. The case is that Sweden was a kningdom on its first legs at the time, and the Letter of 1027 clearly states, in Cnut's own words that god had aided him in the destruction of his enemies, i.e. the Norwegians and Swedes who attacked Denmark, and that he thought of himself as ruler over not only England, Denmark and Norway, but some Swedes also. The parts of modern Sweden in the south were fully Danish, so other parts must be what he refers to. Surely, with the Sigtuna coins as proof, Cnut defeated the Swedish king, and the capital was occupied. His visit to Rome and Conrad's coronation after Holy River means both the Norwegians and the Swedes were dealt with, and the threat no more. On his return he was made king of Norway, and if he had many more years (with a birthdate in the 980s), he would have probably been made Swedish king too. The source I state being an article which points out that Holy River was the name of a watercourse near Sigtuna at the time. Anund Jacob, king of Sweden, to boot, is out of the picture here, defeated in battle no less, so he cannot be used as counter evidence for Cnuts claims (really Sigtuna is a compromise... of sorts).
WikieWikieWikie 19:55, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
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