Talk:Cannabis (drug)

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In Europe, there is currently an epidemic of marijuana cut with Taiwanese roadmarking materials, and ground-up glass, silica and sugar. In some areas of France and the United Kingdom, it is difficult to get marijuana that has not been cut with these substances. (March 2007) The health effects of smoking these substances is not yet known, but the French government's health ministry has issued an official warning and has a telephone hotline for people who do use this marijuana, recommending them to see their doctor and have their throat and lungs checked. People have been hospitalized with symptoms such as coughing up blood.

Quote from the UK Department of Health "The Department of Health has recently received information suggesting that batches of herbal and 'skunk-type' cannabis have been contaminated with microscopic glass-like beads (or possibly ground glass). Laboratory testing has since confirmed a number of cases from a number of different parts of the country, in which cannabis appears to contain microscopic particles of glass. We have no information on other types of cannabis such as resin." (March 2007, see link below)

Would someone please help me add something about this? I don't write very encyclopedic


This article is part of the WikiProject on Psychedelics, Dissociatives and Deliriants, set up to organize and expand entries on Psychedelics, dissociatives and deliriants as well as related subjects according to chemical type, effects, organic carriers, and cultural/historical uses. Please feel free to participate by editing this article and visiting the project page.
Good article Cannabis (drug) has been listed as a good article under the good-article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can delist it, or ask for a review.
This article has been selected for Version 0.5 and the next release version of Wikipedia. This Socsci article has been rated GA-Class on the assessment scale.


Archive index

Cannabis archive 1

Cannabis archive 2

Cannabis (drug) archive 1

Cannabis (drug) archive 2

Cannabis (drug) Archive 3

Taken from Talk:cannabis to explain the existence of this article. Please see this and Talk:Cannabis/Archive 1 Talk:Cannabis/Archive 2 for the sources and discussions of this article. Squiquifox 18:11, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Better Pictures

I have some better pictures of marijuana that are very high detail and resolution. I think I will post them instead of the one on the site. Does anyone have an opinion.

[edit] Sativa is rope, indica is dope

There are three recognized subspecies of Cannabis sativa: Cannabis sativa subsp. sativa, C. sativa subsp. indica, and C. sativa subsp. ruderalis[25]

Where does the link say anything about subsp. ruderalis? According to the taxonomic treatment that most people adhere to (which disregards the last 30 years of scientific evidence), there are two subspecies of C. sativa and four varieties. According to this model, so-called "ruderalis" is really C. sativa subsp. sativa var. spontanea.

It's ironic that most Cannabis aficionados adhere to this model when its chief architect was overtly biased toward treating Cannabis as a single species because the laws at that time (1970s) prohibited C. sativa, but not C. indica or C. ruderalis. In fact, he didn't even include any wide-leafed "indica" strains in his studies! What most Cannabis users call "sativa" is really "indica", and what they call "indica" is something else. Sativa is the stuff they make rope out of. GeorgeLTirebiter 03:29, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

I don't think you are entirely accurate. Frankly you are making a lot of assumptions and I don't quite understand your overlying point. I am pretty sure that most people who smoke Cannibas are consuming a cross of sativa and indica as 100% indica or sativa strains are unlikely to be found.Testerer 03:51, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Please point out the assumptions that you think I am making. From my perspective those are conclusions that I reached after reading the scientific literature. What I am saying is that recent scientific evidence shows that the narrow-leafed drug strains (like the Mexican, Jamaican, and Thai strains of the 1970's) and European hemp and are not as closely related as you and others apparently assume. If that is the case, then it makes no sense to call them both "sativa" (if you don't think industrial hemp is "sativa," then what is it?) If that is not the case, then what scientific evidence can you point to to support your position? Lamarck concluded the same thing over 200 years ago and assigned the name C. sativa to European hemp, and C. indica to narrow-leafed drug strains from India, but apparently he wasn't familiar with the wide-leafed drug strains. Now we know there is this other group from the Hindu Kush. Does it make sense to call them "indica?" Like I said before, what most Cannabis users call "sativa" is really "indica", and what they call "indica" is something else. Sativa is the stuff people make rope out of. Whether they are assigned to different species, subspecies, varieties, biotypes, or some other category isn't particularly relevant to this discussion. GeorgeLTirebiter 13:10, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

i tihnk you should make sure this is not encouraged

[edit] Ancient History

I created the sub-catagory Ancient History as it seemed someone attempted to do so but incorrectly when the catagory was shown with the double = sign on both sides. It also appeared that someone attempted to vandalize this page by adding If you smoke marijuana for more then ten years straight,it is proven by doctors you will become mad homo, I deleted this portion.


[edit] Health issues section is not NPOV

The Health issues and the effects of cannabis article isn't about tobacco, so why is the summary we have here? -- General Wesc 22:24, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

If you're objecting to the other article then take it to that talk page. The fact that it mentions tobacco is not relevant. When it does mention tobacco what it says is for instance "Unlike tobacco, cannabis has not been shown to cause emphysema or lung cancer." which is showing it doesn't cause emphysema or lung cancer. Simply using tobacco as an example doesn't hurt POV.Wikidudeman (talk) 08:04, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
If you can find information not supported by it's citation please point out specifically what it is. HighInBC (Need help? Ask me) 17:43, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
Complete rubbish. Most users inhale it as a combustible substance, which includes Carbon Monoxide and a host of other chemicals. There is no reason why marijuana would not also cause or contribute to lung disease and cancer. --Darth Borehd 01:22, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Slang

Please dont add slang terms for cannabis to the opening. We could fill the whole page with people's slang but then it wouldnt be either readable or encyclopedic, plus its a violation of NPOV. There are at least 100's of slang terms and the consensus is to only include non-slang terms, ie those used officially, in order to remain within NPOV and not generate problems, SqueakBox 17:41, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] A good Article?

I find it hard to believe that this is really a good article. Look at how it starts.

"Cannabis (also known as marijuana or ganja in its herbal form and hashish in its resinous form) is a psychoactive product of the plant Cannabis sativa L."

  • what is with the 'AKA marijuana/ganja in it's herbal form?'
  • aka 'hashish in its (which should be it's) resinous form' (which isn't entirely true or descriptive, actually has quite little to do with cannibas itself.)

Hey, actually its is possessive and it's means it is. You got it reversed. AaronMC 03:56, 17 March 2007 (UTC)Aaron

  • "is a psychoactive product" a product? I thought Cannibas was the plant Cannibas Sativa, Indica etc..? It's a product now. Cannibas is a psychoactive product of the plant Cannibas?

Is it just me or does this sentence seem a bit nutty. I haven't quite dissected the rest of the article but I do hope it is not this misleading and amateurish. Any thoughts? Testerer 20:23, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

I totally agree. In botanical manuscripts, Cannabis is used as a generic term to include all species, subspecies, varieties, and all other groups or individuals belonging to the genus Cannabis. The way "Cannabis" is being used to lead this article is slang, and does indeed sound "a bitty nutty." Instead of Cannabis, I suggest substituting something like, "The crude drug produced from strains of Cannabis belonging to subspecies C. sativa subsp. indica (= C. indica Lam.), also known as marijuana ..."
In botanical manuscripts latin names are usually given in italics, so I have followed that convention in my editing. Please read the rest of this article before you decide if it's good, and let us know what you like or don't like about it. By the way, it's is a contraction of it is. Its (without the apostrophe) is the possessive form of it. GeorgeLTirebiter 21:50, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
That said, an entry in the Merck Index reads:

Cannabis. Indian hemp; Indian cannabis; marihuana; marijuana; bhang; ganja; charas; kif; hasach [sic]; pot. Dried flowering tops of pistillate plants of C. sativa L. (C. sativa var. indica Auth.).

However, the Merck Index is "an encyclopedia of chemicals, drugs and biologicals," and the term Cannabis is clearly used in a restrictive sense to refer to Cannabis used for drug purposes. This can be seen by the synonym Indian hemp, and the taxonomic reference to C. sativa var. indica. Thus, the term Cannabis to refer to Indian hemp isn't exactly slang, but it is somewhat ambiguous and doesn't sound right in the first sentence of this article. Why not say C. sativa L. subsp. indica (Lam.) Small & Cronq. from the git-go, and avoid the ambiguity? The purpose of taxonomy is to delimit groups (taxa) and assign them names that mean the same thing to everyone, so they can be referred to unambiguously. Since the majority opinion of the editors of the Cannabis articles seems to be that Small and Cronquists' taxonomic treatment should take precident, then the name given above is the correct one.
In the botanical literature, the first time a taxon is mentioned the authority who coined the name is also given. Thus C. sativa L. subsp. indica (Lam.) Small & Cronq. informs the reader that Linnaeus coined the name Cannabis sativa, Lamarck coined the name C. indica, and Small and Cronquist reduced C. indica to the rank of subspecies. Thus, the reader should refer to Small and Cronquists' circumscription of C. sativa subsp. indica to determine what subset of Cannabis the author of the article is referring to. GeorgeLTirebiter 03:39, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps the clarification I made to the use of the term Cannabis in the first sentence is a good compromise? GeorgeLTirebiter 13:24, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

This article isnt about Cannabis sativa. Its about the drug cannabis. Which is, of course, a product, both from a supply and denmand and from a legal perspective, SqueakBox 23:51, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Drugs are biologically active chemical compounds. Cocaine, morphine, and aspirin are drugs. Erythroxylon, Papaver, and Salix are not. Why do you think Cannabis is any different? THC is a drug. Cannabis is a plant genus. Marijuana is a medicinal herb, or a psychoactive herb, or an entheogen, or any numer of things you might wish to call it, but it is not a drug. It is easier and more emotionally charged for "anti-drug" crusaders to lump marijuana in with cocaine and LSD etc. by calling it a "drug," than by using a proper description. Likewise, some pro-marijuana advocates think marijuana is a perjorative term, so they refer to it using the generic name Cannabis. However, not all Cannabis plants are considered "drug-plants," so the term is ambiguous when used this way. I understand your point that in the context of this article, one can infer that Cannabis refers to drug strains of Cannabis or products thereof, but why not define your restricted use of the term at the outset so that everyone is on the same wavelength? It is not "superfluous" to be precise with your language in an encyclopedic article. It might not earn you much street cred, but academics and anal retentives (is that redundant?) do it all the time. Heh.
Here is another suggestion on how that might be accomplished:
"This article is primarily about the psychoactive drug Δ9-tetrahydrocannabinol(THC), and the THC-containing herbal preparations marijuana (also called ganja) and hashish produced from the plant C. sativa L. subsp. indica (Lam.) Small & Cronq. (= C. indica Lam.). Marijuana consists of dried mature inflorescences and subtending leaves of pistillate ("female") plants, and hashish is a resinous product consisting primarily of glandular trichomes collected from the same plant material."
My previous suggestion, "Cannabis used for recreational or religious/spiritual purposes ..." accomplishes the same goal without getting bogged down in taxonomy, which is fine by me. Does anyone besides me and Testerer have a problem with the first sentence of this article? Peace out. GeorgeLTirebiter 15:39, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
A drugs is a substance that has an effect on the body, Cannabis does, Cannabis is a drug, it also contains drugs, but is in itself a drug as well. HighInBC (Need help? Ask me) 15:42, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
So by your definition potassium cyanide is a drug, and so is a cayenne pepper? GeorgeLTirebiter 01:17, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't think the debate is whether or not Cannibas is a drug. I don't think that really matters. I personally do think think of smokable Cannibas as a drug, but I must admit, according to wikipedia it clearly is. any biological substance, synthetic or non-synthetic, that is taken primarily for non-dietary needs. What I feel needs to be addressed in this article is a better explanation that Cannabis (drug) is merely a category of substances derived from Cannabis; these substances include, here are wikilinks to their articles... Right now, it seems pretty narrow and assuming. It reads to me more like original research than anything universally fitting to the subject. I personally find it a bit funny that there are more articles in wikipedia devoted to cannabis than you can count- I wouldn't wanna forget the cannibas portal. I'm not sure with so many articles the improvement of just one makes that big of a difference. I do however hope someone takes the time to edit and improve upon the article. Archive away. Testerer 03:54, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Time to archive this page?

This page is getting long in the tooth. I suggest we put it in the Archives and start a new one. GeorgeLTirebiter 11:51, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

If you feel tyhe need to please archive in Archive 3. Too many archives equals more difficulty in finding things, SqueakBox 19:21, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Go ahead and archive it, I can use my bot to make a single page index of all the archives. I do agree with making each archive fairly large, Archive 3 has plenty of room. HighInBC (Need help? Ask me) 19:22, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
I have added the archive index, it will automatically be updated as new items are archived. HighInBC (Need help? Ask me) 21:49, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Semi-protection requested

If there is a good reason not to keep this article permanently semi-protected I would like to hear it. It is constantly vandalized. Why do we put up with this? GeorgeLTirebiter 16:47, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

That is an issue that goes far beyond this article. The reason we keep articles open is because our founder has said this is the encyclo[pedia anyone can edit and we are trying to live up to this ideal, SqueakBox 16:50, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

That is not a good reason. Anyone can edit a semi-protected article. Why do you think we have the ability to request semi-protection if we aren't supposed to make use of it? GeorgeLTirebiter 17:11, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

I dont oppose semi protection sometimes but I dont think wikipedia policy encourages permanent semi protection and this a policy issue not an issue for this article. BTW I actaully think to fulfill what wikipedia's owner is aiming towards is a good reason, SqueakBox 18:14, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

So do I , but what is ideal in not always practical. Whenever I post an edit, first I have to examine all those other posts to see if any of them have anything useful to contribute. I have better things to do than be a spam filter for all those irrepressible goof balls GeorgeLTirebiter 19:27, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
I support a semi-protection for a few days at this time. I would do it myself if not for being involved in a content dispute. A request at WP:RFPP would get the attention of an uninvolved admin. HighInBC(Need help? Ask me) 19:33, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
I have made a request that an uninvolved admin review the need to semi protect this page at WP:RFPP, the gentleman I am currently in a content dispute with has an account old enough not to be effected by this semi-protection, so that is one concern gone. HighInBC(Need help? Ask me) 19:43, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Edit Skirmish

There (still) seems to be a skirmish going in which an anonymous editor claims that the health issues raised in a NIDA report have been "debunked", so they deleted seven paragraphs of this article. My view (after spending several hours providing links to the original articles) is that this is not acceptable. If the anonymous editor actually read the papers cited in the NIDA report and can point out flaws in the experimental design or analysis then please do so, but simply pointing to other studies that have differing results does not prove that the original study has been debunked. If you can point to a statement by Tashkin, say, where he admits that marijuana isn't nearly as big a cancer risk as he previously asserted, that is a lot more persuasive than simply stating that marijuana hasn't been shown to cause cancer and pointing to your own cherry-picked studies.

I looked at the dubunking claims in Archive 3, and some of them are bunk themselves, like this one:

and here we go again: 'This study was presented at the American Heart Association conference held in March 2000, but was never published. An American Journal of Nursing article (April 2001) by Mathre, notes that the study, (Mittleman MA, et al "Triggering of myocardial infarction by marijuana." Circulation 2000:101(6):713; concludes that further study into this possibility is needed.'

Here is a citation and link to the article that 88.155.49.10 says was never published:

http://circ.ahajournals.org/cgi/content/full/103/23/2805

Mittleman, M. A., Lewis, R. A., Maclure, M., Sherwood, J. B., and Muller, J. E. 2001. Triggering myocardial infarction by marijuana. Circulation 103(23): 2805-2809.

Furthermore, the fact that a researcher states that more study is needed shows that the researcher is forthright and is not claiming that their conclusions are definitive for all time. In the field of biology, few studies are. What is interesting about the above cited paper, which I pointed out in my edit, is that the authors acknowledge that heart attacks triggered by marijuana are "rare."

I added a couple statements in my edit that address the problem with the NIDA report:

Editor's Note: The citations given in the above seven paragraphs were all referenced to a single source.[59] It is not clear whether the original articles were read by the author of the above paragraphs, or whether the information presented represents the interpretation of the authors of the summary report.[60] Links to the original articles (or abstracts) are provided herein.

Most cannabis research in the USA is funded by government agencies that publish position papers that only cite research studies that report negative consequences of cannabis use.[60][59] In light of this, some people question whether these agencies make an honest effort to present an accurate, unbiased summary of the evidence, or whether they "cherry-pick" their data.

If all this wiki article cites are cherry-picked studies that show that marijuana is harmless, then this article is not NPOV and will not be taken seriously. GeorgeLTirebiter 02:19, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Here we cherrypick by methodology and peer review, not result. there is no room in this article for studies with substandard methodology or studies that was not published. 88.154.146.37 13:47, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
In the head and neck cancer studies, for example, the tobacco element was not isolated. there is a lot of bad science revolving around the subject and we need to take only the studies with the best methodology. 88.154.146.37 13:57, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

GeorgelTirebiter is absolutely right. I have gone through all the peer-reviewed studies which show harm (after all the section is called "health consequences" and all of them are strong, credible sources. If the only studies that are to be presented in this article are ones that cherrypick in favor or marijuana being harmless, than it is biased and not a neutral point of view. I welcome other editors to list any contradicting studies in the article if they do, indeed, exisit. Elmang

Futhermore, the statement that the US Gov't only funds studies that report negative consequences is false. Here's just one example of this not being true, in 1999, the U.S. Government commissioned and funded the Institute of Medicine study which found potential in the use of marijuana to treat illness for pain. Elmang

If you are referring to my statement above, then that is not an accurate representation. I said "most research is funded ...," not that the US Gov't only funds studies ... Admittedly I do not know the actual statistic so it would be more accurate to say "much research..." I also did not say that those agencies only publish position papers that only report negative consequences, but I believe that is true of many of those reports. There seems to be a cottage industry of cannabis researchers who feed at the teat of anti-drug abuse agencies in the Federal government. I have no proof that those agencies are biased toward funneling grant money to labs with a track record of producing results that put marijuana in a bad light, but given this administration's track record it would not surprise me in the least. I think my statement is a fair one (after changing "most" to many), but I welcome other editors to improve upon it, or prove me wrong.
Also, when 88.154.146.37 refers to "peer review," who is he/she referring to? How many of us here have PhDs or medical degrees? GeorgeLTirebiter 18:49, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
88 is referring to the numerous citations held at Talk:Cannabis_(drug)/Archive_3#Do_something.21 and talk:Cannabis_(drug)/Archive_3#debunked_studies, a previous conversation about this very thing. HighInBC(Need help? Ask me) 18:52, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
See Talk:Cannabis_(drug)/Archive_3#Do_something.21, this was addressed that last time you added all of that, and most of that is from archives when other people tried to use those studies further back. HighInBC(Need help? Ask me) 15:12, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, you dont get to cherry-pick the studies you don't like. See comments by George above.

Please read WP:RS, we do have standards for the sources we use. When a study has been debunked and discredited by peer review it ceases to be a reliable source. Please stop reverting your additions. HighInBC(Need help? Ask me) 16:06, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
Talk:Cannabis_(drug)/Archive_3#Do_something.21 contains numerous citation discrediting the sources you are using. HighInBC(Need help? Ask me) 16:09, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
(edit conflict)I suggest you reword your anti cannabis comments in the health section to fit in with our NPOV policy, the way it was framed made it sound as if the anti cannabis POV was solid fact. I dont disagree with adding this material but in an NPOv manner which means not making it sound as if it is the truth, SqueakBox 16:45, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

After reading that page, it reinforces the credibility of the sources which were cited in the article. In addition, nowhere in that page does it say "when a study has been debunked...." If you have studies which show contrary claims, please add them to the article. thanks. Elmang

I suggets we work out on this talk page how to add the new material in a neutral way, SqueakBox 16:45, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes, please address our concerns about your citations instead of just re-adding it over and over. HighInBC(Need help? Ask me) 16:52, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
From WP:RS: "Exceptional claims require exceptional sources" ... "Certain red flags should prompt editors to examine the sources for a given claim... claims not supported or claims that are contradicted by the prevailing view in the relevant academic community." HighInBC(Need help? Ask me) 16:53, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
The fact is those claims are very much against the prevailing view of the relevant academic community, that is the issue here. HighInBC(Need help? Ask me) 16:54, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

It is not againt the prevailing view of the relevant academic community. Yale, JAMA, NIDA, UK government? That's where the studies come from, is the academic community. It would be more accurate to say that it is not the prevailing view among cannabis users.

Eg your opening statement "Long-term cannabis use can lead to addiction for some people; that is, they use the drug compulsively even though it often interferes with family, school, work, and recreational activities" is not only unsourced but even sourced would still be an opinion and therefore it needs to be stated that this is an opinion, whereas it has been presented as incontrovertible fact, SqueakBox 16:57, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

It is not opinion. It is from the largest survey on drug use in the United States which is often cited by even the most pro-cannabis of groups: "According to the 2003 National Survey on Drug Use and Health (NSDUH), an estimated 21.6 million Americans aged 12 or older were classified with substance dependence or abuse (9.1 percent of the total population)" The question in the survey is based on the DSV-IV criteria which is what the medical community uses as the standard definition for being addicted to a narcotic. Elmang

Those surveys are based on people looking for treatment, and here is the catch: the people looking for treatment are offered to do so as an alternative to going to jail[Jacobs, J.B. and Zimmer, L., "Drug Treatment and Workplace Drug Testing: Politics, Symbolism and Organizational Dilemmas," Behavioral Sciences and the Law 9:345-60 (1991). ], so it would count as coercion, and therefore these surveys are not reliable. 80.178.77.213 17:26, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

It is opinion. Both pro and anti drug advicacy is opinion. Sociology/psycholgy doesnt produce facts in the way hard sciences do, SqueakBox 17:36, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Anonymous - You're confusing surveys. The NSUDUH survey does not link the addiction question to people who are in treatment or seeaking treatment instead of jail at all. It asks the question based solely on the DSM-IV criteria, which the medical standard for determining addiction. It does not base that number on anything having to do with actual numbers of people in treatment or if they've gone throught he criminal justice sytem at all. You're confusing your arguement with the one people often make about data from the Treatment Epidsode Data set, which does include responses from people seeking an alternative to jail. Even then a majority of those (according to TEDS) still meet the medical definition for being addicted. Elmang

In terms of presenting things as fact remeber that the laws against cannabis have a distorting rol, eg making supply difficult encourahges an addictive mentality (you'd probably find a load of sugar addicts were sugar products banned etc). The fact is this is a highly disputed issue out in the world and that is what we must present, not being partial and presenting that as hard fact, SqueakBox 17:40, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

I wouldn't say it's disputed when scientific sources finding addiction come from multiple places and studies. Regardless, shouldn't the effects of its legality be addressed in the legality section? This is about health consequences.

[edit] Going about this all wrong...

Hold on folks...the most important thing to do here is let the reader decide whether any claims are to be believed or not. That is, if a study is referenced that claims that cannabis is addicitive from a reliable source, a counter-claim supported by a different reliable source can be referenced immediately afterwards. To only present sources that have been "vetted" behind-the-scenes by a lot of non-experts is to introduce WP:POV. If NIDA says it's addictive and a study in Neuropsychopharmacology says it's not, that is what we write:

NIDA and other groups contend that there is evidence that cannabis is addicitve.[1][2][3][4] However, some studies claim that no clear evidence exists and that the consumption of other drugs with cannabis causes the physiological signs of addiction.[5][6][7][8]

That way everybody, prohibitionists to NORML, can have their properly sourced say in the matter. We don't decide the "truth" here people, we only present what others say is the truth, as long is it follows WP:A. -- Scientizzle 17:47, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Well said. Thank you. GeorgeLTirebiter 19:32, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
Are there any non-experts here? SqueakBox 18:16, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
I'd admit that I'm officially a non-expert, as I don't research cannabinoids, nor their receptors, only a related class of GPCRs. I would say that I'm rather familiar with, and have ready access to every major scholarly article concerning cannabinoids due to my academic standing.
My point is, this here isn't a debate amongst cannabis researchers, but a content dispute concerning all walks of "interested parties", each with different knowledge, histories, credentials, and pre-established POVs. -- Scientizzle 22:03, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
You clearly are far more familiar with the scientific aspects than I am but this article is also about the legal, political etc aspects, I guess my take was that we all have different knowledges but in this article that is needed because we cover a wider grasp, IMO, than one type of expertise is likely to cover. What with Essjay expertise is a hot subject right now, SqueakBox 22:07, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
I hear you loud and clear, and I welcome everyone else's contributions on the topics about which I'm most and least familiar (legality, cultural use, etc.). The Essjay thing certainly makes me wary of flashing credentials to gain an "upper hand" or whatever here or anywhere else. Let's get to work and try to make this article neutral and well-sourced. -- Scientizzle 22:31, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Thank you, Scientizzle, I agree wholeheartedly. That's why I object to the removal of my sourced content. It's reliable, if anyone disagrees or wants to post the viewpoints of others PLEASE do so.Elmang

Can we please work this out on the talk page first. Elmang was presenting paragraphs of anti cannabis prose but what we want is to mix together the pro and anti, as scientizzle suggests. I have no issues with anti cannabis material here but not whole chunks of it on its own, SqueakBox 17:57, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Such information needs to be presented in the context of it's academic standing, the same goes for any other information in the article. The information does merit inclusion, but not in the manner presented. HighInBC(Need help? Ask me) 18:04, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Which is why I suggest we work it out on the talk page. Edit warring only harms wikipedia, SqueakBox 18:06, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

I see citations saying that the US government has declared X number of people addicted to the drug. However, if you look at scientific work, you will see that there is no evidence of the addictive nature. The US court orders people into recovery programs for "Cannabis addiction", but this is a legal point of view, not a scientific one. Legal issue are one thing, but health issues are seperate. Perhaps a wording that more accurately reflect what the citations are saying would clear this up. HighInBC(Need help? Ask me) 18:10, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
Right from the top of the next citation "Withdrawal symptoms following cessation of heavy cannabis (marijuana) use have been reported, yet their time course and clinical importance have not been established." HighInBC(Need help? Ask me) 18:11, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
The claim "People trying to quit report irritability, difficulty sleeping, and anxiety" is cited to [1], which does not support the claims. HighInBC(Need help? Ask me) 18:13, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
The claim "They also display increased aggression on psychological tests, peaking approximately 1 week after they last used the drug" is cited to [2] which says "it is still undetermined whether withdrawal after chronic use results in changes in aggressive behavior in humans" HighInBC(Need help? Ask me) 18:15, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

If it says that, then why don't you cite it in the article instead of removing it all together high in BC? Elmang

It seems much of what is being added is contradicted by it's own sources, as well as already existing sources in the article. HighInBC(Need help? Ask me) 18:18, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Then why don't you post where in the article it contradicts itself instead of removing it. The language comes from a credible sources as listed in the wiki policies.

Back to your claim about court ordered treatment - the facts i have presented in the article are completely independent of that phenomenon because it relies on the medical definition of marijuana addiction instead of treatment rates. Elmang

What medical definition of marijuana addiction, where? HighInBC(Need help? Ask me) 18:24, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

For starters, here: From the DSM-IV "On the continuum of drug/alcohol use, abuse, dependence (addiction/alcoholism) the criteria for determining addiction to drugs or alcohol and/or alcoholism is clearly spelled out by the American Psychological Association in their Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-IV). The definition is key to intervention with drug/alcohol abusers as it classifies abusive drug/drinking behaviors and impacts on the type of treatment that medical insurance will cover. Reflected in the definition is the current research on brain chemistry. Important for us are the guidelines that are offered by these definitions so that we, in turn, can identify drug/alcohol (SUBSTANCE) abuse and drug/alcohol addiction (SUBSTANCE DEPENDENCE).

The term drug encompasses alcohol and, from this point forward, alcohol is included in the term “drug”. In turn, the DSM-IV uses the term “SUBSTANCE” to encompass drugs of abuse, medication or a toxin; for our purposes we shall limit the discussion to drugs of abuse. The DSM-IV-TR (text revision of 2002) continues using the same definitions as DSM-IV of 1996.

SUBSTANCE ABUSE:

           One or more of the following:

   * FAILURE TO FULFILL MAJOR OBLIGATIONS
   * USE WHEN PHYSICALLY HAZARDOUS
   * RECURRENT LEGAL PROBLEMS
   * RECURRENT SOCIAL OR INTERPERSONAL PROBLEM

With SUBSTANCE ABUSE the user has a choice: he/she uses in spite of illegal, unsafe consequences, or inappropriateness of the drinking/drugging experience." From: http://www.tcnj.edu/~adep/factsheets/dsm2.htm Elmang

Ok, but you cannot take that definition, and a second source that lists numbers of people that received treatment, then combine them into a new position. I see no indication that these medical definitions were the one's used to put people into treatment.
It seems you do have valid information to contribute, but you must stick to what each source says, and you cannot combine sources to put forward a new position. HighInBC(Need help? Ask me) 18:37, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
Besides, define addiction as "RECURRENT LEGAL PROBLEMS" is a real US point of view. How can a medical definition include legal problems? That is like saying, if you keep doing it when it is illegal you are addicted, that is law, not science. HighInBC(Need help? Ask me) 18:39, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

I am not grouping sources, I was asked to list how my claim wasn't opinion. It was not opinion because it was not me defining what addiction is, it's the Internationally-recognized DSM-IV definition. And that is how the source defines addiction. I will revert my previous inclusions. You are free to add it. Thank you. Elmang

I suggest against reverting again, you are in danger of violated our WP:3RR rule, and the concerns on this talk page have not been addressed. I will be more specific in a moment. HighInBC(Need help? Ask me) 18:55, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Stop changing the subject (and using that wiki policy to threaten me and stifle my ability to cite claims in an article with credible sources.)

I am not changing the subject, I am staying very much on it. I am simply warning you that there is a policy that you are in danger of breaking. HighInBC(Need help? Ask me) 19:00, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
More specific. The citation [3] does not say which definition it uses for addiction. There are many definitions for addiction, and the ones that include "breaking the law" as a form of addiction are one of the loosest definitions of addiction out there. You cannot combine a definition of addiction from one source and apply it to another that does not explicitly claim that is the definition being used. HighInBC(Need help? Ask me) 19:00, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
Since it is clear we disagree, perhaps it would be helpful to wait a day or so and see if other peoples opinion on this matter clear the situation up. HighInBC(Need help? Ask me) 19:02, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

It's dissapointing that your goal is to discourage other people with valid views from using wikipedia. You do not own this article. Also, how are YOU not in danger of violating the WP:3RR rule? Elmang

If you read WP:V you will see that it is the responsibility of the person seeking inclusion of information to provide valid sources, not the responsibility of those seeking to remove it. I am not trying to discourage valid views, it is more I find your additions are not supported by citation, which I am demonstrating. HighInBC(Need help? Ask me) 19:06, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
The claim "One study has indicated that a person's risk of heart attack during the first hour after smoking cannabis is four times his or her usual risk." which cites [4], which says "Smoking marijuana is a rare trigger of acute myocardial infarction. Understanding the mechanism through which marijuana causes infarction may provide insight into the triggering of myocardial infarction by this and other, more common stressors.", it mentions nothing about "4 times the risk". HighInBC(Need help? Ask me) 19:06, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

The risk of myocardial infarction onset was elevated 4.8 times over baseline (95% confidence interval, 2.4 to 9.5) in the 60 minutes after marijuana use. The elevated risk rapidly decreased thereafter.

Is your copy different from mine? GeorgeLTirebiter 20:43, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
I did miss that part, my apologies. Though, what it is saying is not that myocardial infarction is 4.8x as likely in the general populations, but rather that people with acute myocardial infarction an average of 4 days after infarction onset. Big difference. The summary of the study explicitly uses the term "rare trigger of acute myocardial infarction", which directly contradicts the interpretation as it was added. What is says basically is that if you had a heart attack recently then smoking cannabis increases the risk future attacks. HighInBC(Need help? Ask me) 21:33, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
The claim "Some adverse health effects caused by cannabis may occur because THC impairs the immune system's ability to fight off infectious diseases and cancer." cites [5], there is nothing about the immune system in that study except "A second cannabinoid receptor, the CB2 receptor, was identified by Munro et al (1993) in macrophages in the spleen and is also present in other immune cells.". HighInBC(Need help? Ask me) 19:08, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
The claim "Cannabis has the potential to promote cancer of the lungs and other parts of the respiratory tract because it contains irritants and carcinogens" which cites [6], really says "This complex regulation of CYP1A1 by marijuana smoke and the Delta 9-THC that it contains has implications for the role of marijuana as a cancer risk factor.". HighInBC(Need help? Ask me) 19:12, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

You said: "If you read WP:V you will see that it is the responsibility of the person seeking inclusion of information to provide valid sources" That is exactly what I have done. You then proceeded to remove the content altogether. The burdern is on you in the article to list competing claims. Your bias is overwhelming and unfortunate. Elmang

I think I have done an excellent job of demonstrating that you citations do not support your claim. This is not a bias of mine, but what the sources say. Instead of calling me bias, lets wait for others to read the arguments you and I have made. HighInBC(Need help? Ask me) 19:15, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
The claim "Cancer of the respiratory tract and lungs may be promoted by cannabis smoke" which cites [7], really says "A strong physician message to users of marijuana, cocaine, or both concerning the harmful effects of these smoked substances on the lungs and other organs may persuade some of them, especially those with drug-related respiratory complications, to quit smoking." HighInBC(Need help? Ask me) 19:16, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

How is anyone supposed to judge when you've removed all the cited research claims completely? Elmang

Simple, there is a revision history containing your version. Also, I have listed the claims and citations I am disputing on this talk page. Also they are not really cited claims if the citation does not support the claim. HighInBC(Need help? Ask me) 19:19, 7 March 2007 (UTC)


It is more important to me that this article be cleaned up and better organized by using subsections and an outline format that is more conducive to worldwide readers. I've removed the most glaring error in Cannibas slang because it was unreferenced, like most of this article. Though many references are listed, the quality of most of them remains in question. Government sources that have a vested interested in disinformation and propaganda should be looked at very closely.

Is it not possible that this article be treated and explained as Cannabis (drug) equaling a category of drugs that are all derived from Marijuana? Giving examples of each and their common street names. It seems like this article is being held back by speculative criticisms regarding health affects founded on shaky science. I would strongly suggest that all claims in this article supported by only government sources in the cases that said governments actually prohibit responsible adult cannibas usage be removed from the article with great haste. Clearly NPOV issues are at hand and I feel we might avoid much of what is debatable regarding health issues considering how many unreliable government sources are used in this article. Testerer 19:39, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

[EC] I find this comment to be a little counterproductive. Anti-estabishmentism is not the point of this article or encyclopedia, either. If a reliable source is presented, and NIDA is, as per WP policy, it's valid for inclusion of an arguably important viewpoint, scientific- and policy-wise. Again, We don't decide the "truth" here people, we only present what others say is the truth, as long is it follows WP:A. If a valid study counters the claims presented, add a phrase and reference that states such in the article... -- Scientizzle 22:03, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
I agree this article should be supported by science, not politics. Defining addictions as "RECURRENT LEGAL PROBLEMS" for example is a ridiculous, politically based, POV with no basis in science. HighInBC(Need help? Ask me) 19:41, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

The article is actually about cannabis the drug which means it needs to support both scientific and political statements, all "attributable to a reliable source" and written in a neutral way. We musnt not abandon the political issues in trying to make for an overly scientific article nor must science be ignored, SqueakBox 21:49, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Let me rephrase that. Political sources should not be used as citations for medical claims, not when we have medical claims to the contrary. Now mentioning that "a particular political body has X definition for addiction, and by that definition Y amount of people are effected", that is fine. But not saying "Y number of people were addicted", or "this is the definition of addiction". HighInBC(Need help? Ask me) 21:52, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Alleged slang

It took a lot of deabte to agree to include martijuana and ganja in the opening. Neither is a slang term, the first is the word for cannabis the drug in the US and the second is the word for cannabis the drug in India and Jamaica. it took a lot of effort tor each this consensus, please read the archive before reverting me again annd be assured it was iother users who insisted in putting in marijuana and if it is deleted they will put it in again, SqueakBox 22:01, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

I remember the debate, I agree, they are good there. Perhaps the citations used in that debate can be used to cite those statements when they are returned. HighInBC(Need help? Ask me) 22:02, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
Yes, especially since they're both well-established terms and we have redirects for both "marijuana" & "ganja" to this article. -- Scientizzle 22:05, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Not true either, Ganja doesn't redirect here at all.Testerer 01:02, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, someone is going to need to cite some references on the commonness of those terms. Chances are most people don't say marijuana. They say pot or grass or bhang or dope etc, does anyone have any ref's to back it up or is it just original research that probably doesn't represent a worldwide view?

Not to mention

"also known as marijuana or ganja in its herbal form and hashish in its resinous form"

This also isn't referenced itself. I mean, hashish is the resinous form of Ganja? Is it? I thought hashish is something you made, through many, many different methods from Cannabis. I think someone said above, Ganja is a slang word used in 3rd world countries but would probably not be recognized in say, Mexico or Switzerland. Only by English speaking persons are these colloquialisms understood. The word Marijuana has it's own shrouded history and why that name was given to Cannabis, a little bit of research would likely discount this term entirely considering it's origin and relation to Cannabis.

Secondly and most glaringly, Hashish is not "Cannibas in resinous form" that simply is not true and entirely misleading to the reader. A big difference from the actual article on hashish

'Hashish (from Arabic: حشيش ḥashīsh, lit. grass; also hash or many slang terms) is a preparation of Cannabis composed of the compressed trichomes collected from the Cannabis plant.'

This article needs some help. It doesn't need inaccuracies and speculation or regional thinking. Lack of solid information as well as a worldwide view are what needs the most improvement. Testerer 23:13, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm off to go be busy in the "real world", but I'd ask you to check out, if you haven't already, Talk:Cannabis (drug)/Archive 3 for the looong discussions that occured on this topic just a couple month ago. Many of your points were discussed back then. -- Scientizzle 23:26, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
I think regionalism is very important in wikipedia. Ganja and marijuana are, along with cannabis, official terms, eg those used by law enforcers who certainly dont use slang terms. And it is for this reason that we reached the consensus to include these terms. As for hashish, this is also known as cannabis resin (the legal terminology in the UK where resin is more common than bush), so to describe it as cannabis in resinous form seems enmtirely correct to me given that thisa rticle is about cannabis as drug (which isnt the remit at hashish), ie different articles requitre different descriptions, SqueakBox 23:34, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

On Marijuana from this very article:

"The name marijuana (Mexican Spanish marihuana, mariguana) is associated almost exclusively with the plant's psychoactive use."

This is nonsensical, what is this supposed to mean?

"The term is now well known in English largely due to the efforts of American drug prohibitionists during the 1920s and 1930s, which deliberately used a Mexican name for cannabis in order to turn the populace against the idea that it should be legal, playing upon attitudes towards race. (See 1937 Marihuana Tax Act)."

OK so it was propaganda, a made up term, slang (IE: Not it's actual Biological name, Cannibas Sativa right? It isn't Marijuana Sativa, Marijuana Indica? Ganja Indica? Didn't think so.

"Those who demonized the drug by calling it marihuana omitted the fact that the "deadly marihuana" was identical to cannabis indica, which had at the time a reputation for pharmaceutical safety.[63]""

So it was disinformation when it was used initially and sadly many people (including several editing this article) are willing to pick up the torch where William Randolf Hearst left off?

On Ganja, from NIDA:

"here are countless street terms for marijuana including pot, herb, weed, grass, widow, ganja, and hash,"

OK, I'll agree to get rid of the Ganja and Hashish in its resinous form mentions? How's that for compromise? If NIDA is to be accepted as a source in this article, then it should not be cherry picked for favored information.

But wait just one second...

"as well as terms derived from trademarked varieties of cannabis, such as Bubble Gum, Northern Lights, Fruity Juice, Afghani #1, and a number of Skunk varieties."

Fruity Juice? Trademarked Varieties? Uh... maybe NIDA is full of crap and run by former DARE officials after all. Note that the article says "varieties of cannibas" and not 'varieties of marijuana or ganja'.

If this article uses the term Marijuana and then uses the term Marihuana later on, it is inconsistent and seemingly unreliable. If this article wishes to make bold, unreferenced claims based on a limited discussion of a few people, it will be edited extensively and factual, referenced material will replace speculation. Again, so much of this article is not referenced and so many complaints have been made about it's bold fallacies that I must hold my position. Not based on my own region or opinion, they call it herb where I'm from, or Grass. Sometimes smoke or trees or headies.... If this article wishes to redefine Hashish it should at least match up with the Wikipedia article on Hashish, it doesn't it is far from it frankly. As for NIDA's take on this very subject, it is filled with NPOV issues and is overall, entirely unreliable given it's political agenda. I think WW and Unref tags should aid this article greatly until it is edited more accurately and thoroughly. Testerer 00:47, 8 March 2007 (UTC)


"Ganja and marijuana are, along with cannabis, official terms, eg those used by law enforcers who certainly dont use slang terms." If this is the kind of argument being used to justify inclusion we are in for some trouble. Law "enforcers" don't use slang terms? Again, do you have a reference for that or what?

Again with the phony "logic"

"It took a lot of deabte to agree to include martijuana and ganja in the opening. Neither is a slang term, the first is the word for cannabis the drug in the US and the second is the word for cannabis the drug in India and Jamaica"

Martijuana(sic) is the word for Cannabis the drug in the US? Then why did you just call it Cannibas, can you prove that it is in fact 'THE' word in the US? Ganja is 'the' word for Cannibas in India? Really? Got a reference that will back up either claim? Surely you mean it is "a" word or "a" name, which, if not it's actual name(Cannibas), would tend to constitute slang right? So much of this article is speculative and contains original research, I too wonder in amazement that it ever received a good rating. Testerer 00:57, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

You are the only one who has misscalled cannabis cannibas in this section. I'll get some sources. I dont think we are here to prove as if this were a science lab but the fact that so many editors have insisted on introducing the word marijuana in the opening is enough for me, and they ahve endlessly sourced this in the now archived discussion, SqueakBox 01:03, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
Please do read Talk:Cannabis (drug)/Archive 3#"Marijuana", revisited which took place very recently and just because it is archioved does not mean it is not relevant. its highly relevanyt and indicates that a lot of editors are arguing a different line from yourself, SqueakBox 01:12, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
(edit conflict)I dont believe we contradict the hash article. The hashish article states "The resin reservoirs of the trichomes (sometimes erroneously called pollen) are separated from the plant via various methods." indicating that it is indeed resin which from our point of view dealing with cannabis as a drug, we certainly shouildnt mention the "trichomes" because they are emntioned at hashish (though I have long adviocated merging hashish here), SqueakBox 01:26, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, Wikipedia isn't a democracy friend. It will get cut if it isn't referenced and there are references that provide counter evidence. NIDA says Ganja is slang. This very article explains that Marijuana/Marihuana is a made up term. What we are talking about is Cannibas (drug), drugs/substances derived from Cannibas Sativa or Cannibas Indica or perhaps, though very unlikely Cannibas ruderalis. Not what some countries refer to it as. The fact that Marijuana is a very popular name in the US and Canada does not mean it is "the" name. If this were a Scientific discussion or article as other's have suggested, we would of course abstain from slang entirely and instead focus on Biological terminology based on taxonomy right?

All of that is beside the point, the fact is, this article with or without slang is highly unreferenced and full of inaccurate information. It will be fixed in time, we can debate each change to this extent if you want, but the tides of progress and improvement are inevitable. Sorry guys, Hashish isn't the Resinous form of Cannibas. Hashish is a solid and Resin is not a solid. We aren't talking about terpene components removed by distillation' right? That of course would be Rosin. NOTE: I've read the archived discussion in question and many people actually disagree with your view of inclusion.

I did see a lot of lackluster arguments like:

"North America is a big continent."

Then why is slang from India and Jamaica included?

""Marijuana" is a valid enough term to have widespread usage in the very peer-reviewed publications that make this article more informative than the average fanboi page. I think that alone asserts its validity as a proper name to be presented."

Valid enough? I thought it was either or.

"Note: "ganja" hits 5752 articles in PubMed, although only 3 of those do not have "cannabis" & 5 don't have "marijuana"...this indicates to me that very few publications exclusively refer to this drug as ganja. This doesn't mean I don't agree think it may merit mentioning, though...just some further information."

It's called meta data.

"Sure here's a quote from everyone's favorite source, the U.S. government: "researchers asked teens if they had used marijuana or hashish (another form of marijuana)" [25]. It's from one of their delightful anti-drug websites. Regardless of your feelings about the America's war on drugs and the government's peculiar choice of words, I just want you people to know marijuana is used as a broad synonym for cannabis in official sources.-"

I'm pretty sure that drugabuse.gov isn't the most reliable, unbiased, NPOV source out there.

"All we need to say (preferably in the opening sentence), is that for many outside of North America marijuana refers to the dried leaves/buds, while in North America marijuana has become virtually a synonym for cannabis. No confusion, problem solved. Then, later on in the article, if you and Thoric want to write about the nefarious, racist history of the word marijuana, do so, but try to maintain a non-preachy, NPOV tone.-"

Is this some sort of 'let's make a deal or what'? Dried leaves/buds? talk about not entirely accurate.

"I've always thought of it as slang, but apparently not: Ganja"

Linking to a dictionary definition. Well wikipedia isn't a dictionary, it's an encyclopedia, and in Wikipedia Ganja has a different entry.

"I also bolded marijuana and ganja to give them equal weight with cannabis. Can we all live with this version?"

No we can't because bold or not, it is still misleading and petty to include such slang as actual, scientific terms for something that has a real name. My daughter make love her "binky" but Suprise- it's a pacifier. Testerer 01:38, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

We are not a democracy but we base our decisions on consensus. And hashish is called cannabis resin, eg [8]. You are ruight that slowly this article makes its way forward and if you delete marijuana someone will replace it soon enough, it always happens, SqueakBox 01:26, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
RE: "slang" vs. "scientific term", in Archive 3 you'll find that I did plenty of searching on PubMed for various terms, and marijuana was very common, often absent of "cannabis" (vice versa as well). I've no opinion either way on "ganja"--it's rarely used in scientific publications--but marijuana is, and should be in that first line...especially since marijuana redirects to this article. -- Scientizzle 03:12, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

BTW who is NIDA? If its American ganja may well be slang in America but it isnt everywhere, including the Oxfor Dictionary which I have used a s a source but whuich was provided by another editor, SqueakBox 01:29, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Can a good article include totally wrong data?

This really walks on my nerves that this is considered a good article. Indeed it is one of the worst in the whole wikipedia. Maye throughout editing in time it has lost its cutting edge because people actually change little details and this leaves no space for a good and general view for the user. As a doctor I was really disapointed how useless the part on medical complications was. Drugs with history of less than ten years and usage not at all comparable to a widespread usage of Cannabis are much better documented throughout Wikipedia. How about some actual WRONG data? Look at the legal bits... There's a map showing for example it is decrimminalized in Iran. HUH? Are you sure? In iran if police arrests you with half a gram of canabis, you will be fined AND beaten by strap AND go to jail! I guess it is the toughest penalty for it in the world. Alright, we are all here to make Wikipedia more reliable, but more and more people discussing a page does not necessarily mean it is growing better and better. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 85.15.21.141 (talk) 22:36, 7 March 2007 (UTC).

I totally agree with your sentiment. I, and others will hopefully improve this article in the future. Testerer 23:14, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree those maps are very outdated and based on dubious, or unknown, definitions. HighInBC(Need help? Ask me) 15:53, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

I think Wikipedia should develop some kind of quick question or cognitive exercise that you have to answer correctly before you can edit any page. there are too many immature morons out there —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.178.208.77 (talk • contribs) 18:10, March 18, 2007 (UTC)

I think it is fine as it is. Do you have any specific suggestions? HighInBC(Need help? Ask me) 18:12, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Dispute

please outline your reasons for putting on the dispute tag (otherwise my bet is someone will remove it), SqueakBox 01:42, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Anyone reading the discussion page can tell that the accuracy of this article is disputed seriously by enough people that readers should know that this particular article should be viewed with greater skepticism considering the ongoing dispute. The dispute tags are added so that readers are given the best information about an article when reading it. Again, solid references in this article and less speculation might improve it greatly. It is obviously the victim of squatters so it makes it even more important that dispute tags be added.Testerer 01:46, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

I meant and mean specific examples. Generalisations wont help at all as we dont know how to improve the article in order to get the tag removed. What squatters? I trust you dont refer to wikipedia editors as squatters, see Wikipedia:Civility and Wikipedia:Assume good faith. Certainly cant see what the article has to do with squatters? SqueakBox 01:50, 8 March 2007 (UTC)\

Get rid of inaccurate speculative information like:

  • Cannibas/Marijuana aka (Hashish in it's resinous form). is misleading and not accurate.
  • Stop using bogus sources like the "recreation drug information home page" to try and prove your edits.
  • Stop using the dictionary to write an encyclopedia.
  • There is confusion when many people view Marijuana as the name of a plant and not necessarily Cannabis (drug)- that's not articulated at all.
  • Statements like this sound like original research because they are not referenced

"Humans have been consuming Cannabis since prehistory, although in the 20th century there was a rise in its use for recreational, religious or spiritual, and medicinal purposes."

This is a huge claim to make yet there is no references. I doubt you could have any at all anyways because it attempts to show a rise of Cannibas use (not marijuana or ganja mind you) since prehistory!? How could this not be disputed.

This article also has weaselly statements like the following

"The production of Cannabis for drug use remains illegal throughout most of the world through the 1961 Single Convention on Narcotic Drugs, the 1971 Convention on Psychotropic Substances, and the 1988 United Nations Convention Against Illicit Traffic in Narcotic Drugs and Psychotropic Substances, while simple possession of small quantities is either legal, or treated as an addiction rather than a criminal offense in a few countries. The laws in the United States vary from state to state, some having decriminalized the possession of small amounts of marijuana although it is still a federal crime."

It starts out saying how most of the world Cannibas is illegal (which is changing fast and is questionable itself) while jumping to Cannibas laws in the US without doing a fair job of describing anything at all. It also doesn't reference itself, like so much of this article.

How about the subsection called "Immediate effects of consumption"

doesn't that feel a bit like speculation, original research?

I could literally post dozens more examples but all in all, this article is a mess, full of speculation, does not match up too well with other wikipedia articles that cover the same or included topics. This article attempts to redefine things within the context of this article and not from a fair, worldwide, honest perspective. Testerer 02:06, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for that. I'm signing off now but will respond in the morning, as I am sure will other editors. I think the more examples you can give the better, SqueakBox 02:08, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

How about getting rid of the maps that are clearly misleading and ultimately useless. Either something is legal or it's not. To say "Essentially" legal discredits the entire map. To say "often unenforced" is just as bad. Why is most of Africa listed as "probably" illegal. The fact that these maps remain is proof enough that this article needs help. It is not encyclopedic at all and will improve greatly from more editing. The tags are there merely to allow for more discussion and provide readers with more complete information. Thanks again, after all LOST is on.Testerer 02:16, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Testerer, you raise some good points. I went through and edited some of this article so it would be more readable, but tried not to throw out too much stuff because I didn't want to step on too many toes without consulting other editors. I tried to define the use of the term Cannabis in this article, but met with resistance and I don't want to get into an editing war. I don't think statements that are undisputed have to be referenced. If you find false or misleading statements in this article, then be bold and change them. You don't have to ask us for permission. I agree that those maps are clearly wrong and should be updated or deleted. There are plenty of references that show Cannabis has been used since pre-history, but the part about it increasing in use in the 20th century is poorly worded. The statement could be qualified to indicate that marijuana (hashish, etc.) use increased in the USA and certain other countries in the 20th century. I do not know the statistics. This article should not focus primarily on the USA, but there do not seem to be many editors here from other countries who can fill us in on the details about other locations. You are correct that non-authoritative sources should usually not be referenced (I won't say never), unless one is specifically referring to information that appears in the popular literature. Some of the references are to newspaper articles that report on recent scientific findings. If an article interviews an author of the scientific report then it can be informative, but in general it is better to reference the primary source. The journalists who write newspaper articles almost always get a few things wrong. There was a big splash about Rasta several months ago that fizzled, apparently because the authors released their findings to the press before they were published in professional journals and (I am guessing here) the Rasta claim didn't make it through peer-review. Thanks for pointing out some of the deficiencies in this article. Now how about doing some research yourself and contributing to it? GeorgeLTirebiter 14:09, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Cannabis seeds

I see the sentence stating that Cannabis seeds can be openly purchased throughout much of Europe was removed by HighInBC because of a lack of reference. As far as I know it is a true statement. Here is one reference: Baker, P. B., Gough, T. A., and Taylor, B. J. 1982. The physical and chemical features of Cannabis plants grown in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland from seeds of known origin. Bulletin on Narcotics 34(1): 27-36.

Seeds from which Cannabis can be grown in the United Kingdom may be derived from three principal sources: (a) from seed sold within the United Kingdom for fish bait or bird seed... Seeds sold legally within the United Kingdom have been shown to have poor germination rates ...

It is my understanding that viable Cannabis seeds can be purchased openly in the UK, but it is illegal to plant them (I realize this is an old ref and maybe things are different now). Someone told me that Cannabis seeds can be purchased at pet stores in Holland as bird food. They are even in some bird seed mixes sold in the USA. I don't know about elsewhere in Europe. Perhaps HighInBC thinks the sentence was referring only to viable Cannabis seeds of drug strains? GeorgeLTirebiter 13:04, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for finding the reference, feel free to re-add the information with the citation. I only removed it as it has been marked as needing a citation for some time. Good work. HighInBC(Need help? Ask me) 15:51, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Oh who want weed seeds? How bout this...go to the lamest dope boy and buy a sack then there you go, you got mo seeds in the sack than weed. Feel me!?

Not feeling you no. Most experienced smokers would know that "lamest dope boy" with stuff full of seeds will likely either have crap "Jamaican" Sativa similar, badly grown outdoor varieties. People buy seeds so they can get the best possible quality hybrid strains for indoor growing. Sativa will not grow well indoors. I can confirm buying of seeds is legal in the UK, but only for use as bird seed or fishing bait. Although who would spend £40 on 12 seeds for fishing is a good question of course. CJK

Actually the UK law does not say you have to use seeds for fishing or bird seed it merely says you cant use them for growing. The day the law becomes that prescriptive is unlikely to arrive. Jamaican is rubbish? That is a POV as is the idea that we all live in cold places, SqueakBox 15:17, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The Edit War Continues

I see Elmang has put the NIDA references back in. Unfortunately, Elmang has included the version with all the references pointing back to the NIDA report. I spent several hours searching out the abstracts or full reports and pointing the references directly to them. I also put in a statement saying that all of the references in the above paragraphs were from that report, and that it was not clear whether the author of those paragraphs (apparently Elmang) actually bothered to read the original studies, or whether those paragraphs came directly from the report. It is wiki policy to inform the reader if one has not read a reference, and is referring to someone elses interpretation. Perhaps that is why Elmang pointed to the NIDA report for all the references. I don't know. I have no problem with those studies being in this wiki article, but I have a problem with some of Elmang's statements regarding those reports, such as Elmang's failure to note that the actual incidence of heart attacks triggered by marijuana in the cited study were reported by the authors of that study as "rare." Also, I have a problem with such statements as, "In fact, marijuana smoke contains 50 percent to 70 percent more carcinogenic hydrocarbons than does tobacco smoke." One should be very careful about citing the results of a single report as "fact." It depends on how the study was performed. What is being compared to what? Is that on a per-weight basis of condensed smoke? I propose reverting Elmang's version of those seven paragraphs to my updated version that points to the actual references, and disputes some of the findings. Before I make that reversion, I will wait a day or two to see if Elmang or others respond to this notice of intent. GeorgeLTirebiter 15:46, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes, revert his additions unless they are properly cited. We have gone through this before with him twice. HighInBC(Need help? Ask me) 15:57, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
Elmang's edits verge on vandalism. not only the reliability of the studies is much disputed (Tobacco use is not isolated, substandard methodology, very controversial definition of addiction etc.), the citations obviously distort (as proper for NIDA) the original study (that may or may not have been published and peer reviewed, and was probably funded by NIDA), and knowing this, Elmang keeps returning the paragraphs. this counts as vandalism. LetTheSunshineIn 17:11, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] NIDA is an acceptable source

Yes, the National Institute on Drug Abuse is a branch of the National Institutes of Health, through which it is funded by the American government, which may or may not have a vested interest in the coninued illegality of cannabis (etc.) and promoting the view that the drug is harmful. I think any reasonable person can see that.

But that doesn't make claims by NIDA unacceptable for this or any article. Consider that NIDA, with a budget over a $1 billion (which is claimed to be ~85% of the world's spending on drug abuse[9]), is an important funding and research agency for the USA and stands as an influential organization for research and policy thoughout the world. Thus, even if the official NIDA stance on a drug is influenced by the political climate, that doesn't mean that such claims are inappropriate here.

As I stated above:

The most important thing to do here is let the reader decide whether any claims are to be believed or not. That is, if a study is referenced that claims that cannabis is addicitive from a reliable source, a counter-claim supported by a different reliable source can be referenced immediately afterwards. To only present sources that have been "vetted" behind-the-scenes by a lot of non-experts is to introduce WP:POV. If NIDA says it's addictive and a study in Neuropsychopharmacology says it's not, that is what we write:

NIDA and other groups contend that there is evidence that cannabis is addicitve.[1][2][3][4] However, some studies claim that no clear evidence exists and that the consumption of other drugs with cannabis causes the physiological signs of addiction.[5][6][7][8]

That way everybody, prohibitionists to NORML, can have their properly sourced say in the matter. We don't decide the "truth" here people, we only present what others say is the truth, as long is it follows WP:A.

Rather than delete every (properly added) NIDA source and chastise anyone who adds them, since they are sources that meet WP:A, find reliable counterclaims. NIDA's POV is particularly relevant as it shapes a significant portion of the world's research and drug policy.

I'm not singling anyone out, nor judging the quality of any specific NIDA material. this is just a caution that rejecting a source because you don't like 'em is counterproductive to the project. -- Scientizzle 16:09, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Disputed?

I don't think that because a terminology dispute the whole article should be tagged as disputed. if you think that there are factual inaccuracies in the article, do fix them. Let The Sunshine In 18:03, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree the tag is not needed. Most of the disputes here are without basis, and the few that are, are being handled very well. HighInBC(Need help? Ask me) 18:44, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
then remove it please Let The Sunshine In 19:03, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

A NIDA Research Report on marijuana abuse mentions an unreferenced "series of studies" of rats exposed daily to an unspecified amount of THC for 30% of their typical lifespan that showed neurodegeneration of the hippocampus, an area of the brain associated with memory and learning

There is no room for unreferenced series of studies in wikipedia.. please remove it and state that cannabis temporarily impairs short term memory (i'd do it but the page is locked) Let The Sunshine In 19:03, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

It is a shame that someone would arbitrarily remove such tags without a real discussion. A disputed tag in many ways is a good thing because it helps readers know what is going on behind the scenes. Imagine how much good info about the responsible improvements to this article that readers are alerted to with such tags. Additionally such disputed tags and unfortunately marginalized "terminology" or "factual inaccuracy" issues are not diminished because tags are hastily removed. Many good points have been brought to light in discussion and to blindly remove dispute tags is irresponsible. The main problem with this article is that it is not in fact about "Cannabis (drug)". Most of the article has no symmetrical relation to that subject it all. Of course the history of the Hashishans is more than briefly covered, and even though there is already a well formed article on Medical Cannibas- that subject is again redefined in this article. Did you know the legality of Cannabis (drug) in Hong Kong is also covered in this article? Let us not mention that, Spiritual Use of Cannabis- already having it's own highly informative article- is also defined in this article about "Cannabis (drug)"- because as a reader I really want to read an entire page on Medical Use instead of actually reading the Wiki Article on Medical Cannabis. Such redundancy does not befit a good article. Look at the discussion pages as of late. A few days does not somehow fix the article. The tags are fair. Testerer 06:05, 11 March 2007 (UTC)


"please remove it and state that cannabis temporarily impairs short term memory (i'd do it but the page is locked"

Why? Because you said so. You have a link to prove that? This is why this article is clearly disputed. Too much original research along with copious redundancy. :) Testerer 06:06, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Original reseach? are you serious?! it isn't even disputed. but if you want, I'll give you a link.. Let The Sunshine In 12:13, 11 March 2007 (UTC) about the tag, it's misleading, it makes the readers think that the facts that are written here are lies, when you only claim they are irrelevant, I ask you too change it to something more appropriate. Let The Sunshine In 12:13, 11 March 2007 (UTC)


IMO, all the article is entirely about cannabis (drug), and it doesn't matter in what preperations of it; Hashish, Weed, Bhang, it's all Cannabis (drug). Let The Sunshine In 12:26, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Hashish should by rights be merged into this article, IMO, SqueakBox 17:07, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

according to what you Testerer says, this page need more than all a cleanup. Let The Sunshine In 12:39, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] removal of references & names

someone removed this study i think "(2001-09-01) "Neuroprotection by 9-Tetrahydrocannabinol, the Main Active Compound in Marijuana, against Ouabain-Induced In Vivo Excitotoxicity"...its in an older version of the page if someone wants to retrieve and paste it back...and the new intro on terms I think is not so good...it was "Cannabis (also known in its herbal form as herb, buds, & ganga (typically by today's users in the states), and as marijuana or grass & pot (typically by users in europe, older users, or by the press & authorities). It is also known as hash in its resinous form)"...the fact is I used to live in the states for many years, and knew many many people that smoked cannabis from several diverse areas of the states, and people really never, hardly even once, called it marijuana, it was almost always refered to as herb, buds, or else ganga...it is almost always the authorities that call it marijuana and the name was picked up by the scientific establishment too i suppose...of course there are many code words for it, but the non-coded words and that are typically used arent included anymore!...adding the words pot, grass, and marijuana is also valid, but two of these are generally used by those in opposition to cannabis "pot" and "marijuana"...I think you need to be a little more current and explain these distinctions for the 6 commonly used words...83.78.128.62 18:42, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

the neuroprotection is mentioned here, the first time in the medical use paragraph (prevention of Alzheimer's desease, the claim is attributed to another study of neuroprotection), and the second time in the health issues, where it's unsourced and the study that you mentioned should be put their.
About the names, you are absoloutly right, but the fact that there is a formal use of the name 'marijuana' (as much as I hate it), but herb and buds are two of hundreds of regional slang names, makes it mandatory to mention 'marijuana' but inappropriate to selectively feature a few slang names.

Let The Sunshine In 19:10, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes exactly, it should go by that uncited sentence, it actually was there, but an editor removed it with no explanation, i was tracking a frequent "Ann Coulter" editor's past edits and noticed he removed that study from the article with no explanation. As to the names, your argument is sound, I'm just saying that I've been all over the states and only heard a couple names for it used frequently and consistently, those being herb, bud or buds, and ganga...I agree the marijuana name should stay, I was for putting the 6 really common names its called by, two of those happen to have more negative connotations, marijuana and pot, the other four, grass, ganga, herb, and buds are rather neutral it seems...if i was to add a seventh I would add dope, another word with negative connotation usually used by american police, but that one can be confusing as its used for several other drugs too, and most specifically heroin i think, so i wouldnt add that one, yet ganga is called by that on occasion...83.78.136.13 22:54, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Well we certainly wouldnt want just American names were we to use slang though IMO we should not use slang names at all, and the current opening is based on that premise, SqueakBox 22:56, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Another example is this subsection title:

"Relationship with other illicit drugs"

Well this is clearly not written from a NPOV, nor it is worldly is having a fair representation of Cannabis considering many more countries are legalizing or decriminalizing and to use the term illicit unfairly groups Cannabis with chemical based drugs such as Heroin and Cocaine. This is not only disinformative but yet another reason the Dispute tags are fair. The subsection title itself leads readers to believe Cannabis is an illicit drug, I dispute that and I would recommend a change.Testerer 06:10, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Well then fix whatever errors you find, don't tag the article. anyway, in most countries cannabis is controlled, even if it is dicriminalized. illicit doesn't mean criminal, it means not legal, and it most countries, it isn't legal yet (I sure hope it will be..). Let The Sunshine In 12:17, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] This article needs urgent cleanup

Over the months people, mostly stoners, added a lot of crap into this article... it requires urgent attention. Let The Sunshine In 15:13, 13 March 2007 (UTC)


Agreed, the stoners have completely taken over this article. Elmang

I concur with you. My edits have been reverted in hours and at least a few times within minutes. I have other articles that need my attention and I am fed up trying to clean up the pro-bias prevalent in the article. --Darth Borehd 01:15, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Cannabis intoxication article

I would like to start a article on cannabis intoxication but i am not a stoner so i have little idea what its like, so if there are any stoners that could help that would be good.The Right Honourable 09:28, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

That's a very good idea (there is also an article about the psychedelic experience). I'll help if I find the time. Let The Sunshine In 12:24, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

The feeling of being high can actually be quite difficult to describe. It can vary from a simple pleasant feeling throughout your body all the way to a mild delirium(If used in large excessive amounts which I wouldn't recommend)An example from my own experiences would be numbness, mental hallucinations(i.e. The feeling of walking when you are not). Shaking of the knees, twitching, paranoia in some cases.Ishiyma Eloc 23:55, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

That sounds like more than just cannabis, surely cannabis is what you get every time and mental hallucinations like that are rare, SqueakBox 23:41, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Trust me, I check to see if my marijuana is laced or not. So far its never been laced and those are some of the effects that I've felt. Whether you believe me or not, that's your choice.Ishiyma Eloc 23:55, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

That is so stupid. Who the hell twitches n all that shit from smoking? What the hell was you smokin on...crack? Weed makes you feel good inside and out. It may not make evrybody feels the same anyways. You was smokin some laced shit. How did you check it?...cuz the only way to check is to fire that shit up and smell what the fuck it smells like. If it's like this burnt rubber smell then you was on some laced shit...ok!

Hmm. I will not be drawn into an argument over other people feelings or percieved sensations, or hypothesizing that their dope was laced. Everyone has a different experience. Please note that different varieties, different growing methods and even different methods of ingestion ALL have a strong link to the effects that are felt. There is therefore no easy answer to this question....Here are my own views, which I have restricted to the most obvious effects I notice for the majority of varieties I have smoked. The primary feelings associated with MILD cannabis intoxication (i.e. 1-3 spliffs for an experienced user, less than 1 spliff for a novice) are: feelings of well-being and relaxation, a perception of enhanced awareness of sound and visual detail, mildly decreased concentration, increased lethargy (strongly dependant on variety and "ripeness" of the cannabis plant at harvest time), time seems to pass more quickly (a function of the other effects no doubt. I can watch hours of rubbish TV and not get bored) and libido is moderately increased. The strong relaxing effect, which seems to affect the self-awareness of the brain similarly - but much less strongly - than alcohol, depends on the user and the cannabis smoked. Along with the other effects, it tends to lead to more relaxed interactions with those around you, often marked by improved mood, decreased anxiety and heightened enjoyment of stimulus. (You are more likely to laugh at bad jokes, or find poor conversation amusing! These effects all tends to reduce substantially once a smoker has been using the drug for a sustained period) STRONG intoxication (i.e. 4 spliffs or more for experienced user, 1 or more for novice) leads to stronger feelings of the same type as those mentioned above, but with vision and concentration much more severly impaired. Memory is more obviously affected, with short-term memory effects apparent to the user. This only affects the creation of memory whilst under the influence, with memory function returning to approx. normal within 4-6 hours. The effect of "Munchies" varies from person to person, and tends to diminish with continued use. Reports of paranoia and panic attacks are valid and real, however my personal experience is that this is triggered by environmental factors with the lack of clear cognition whilst intoxicated increasing susceptability by encouraging a feedback loop of negative thought. i.e. Cannabis does not cause paranoia, but reduces our ability to "resist" and dispel paranoid thoughts. This can be exacerbated by feelings of increased sensitivity and awareness, which can be seen as unusual, with negative implications. (I call this "unchecked feedback"....Feeling your own heartbeat strongly can be enough to trigger a paranoid reaction, which, unchecked, can in turn spiral such that you notice it more, which further increases heart rate and so on...) Also, in my experience, feelings of depression can also be strengthened by regular cannabis use, however this seems to be due primarily to the effect the drug has on social interaction, such as the tendancy of regular users to introversion and reduced social engagement. The debate on the psychological effect of cannabis tends to place insufficient importance on these functional factors, as well as the fact that people more susceptible to mental instability are more likely to feel compelled to use cannabis as a crutch to "provide" short term happiness in the first place. I could go on to be honest, but I'm out of time!! (CJK - 22 March 2007)

"The right honourable gentleman is indebted to his memory for his jests, and to his imagination for his facts." --Richard Brinsley Sheridan


Well I can tell you the only actual scientific study to date was done through a unified effort of UoO and UoW. The only real effect is an acceleration of the metabolism (hunger, fatigue, and bliss) and a layer of THC induced fat that lines the cells of your brain (minor psychosomatic effects in some people). The fat is temporary for anywhere to day to a few months after smoking, depending on your rate of metabolism. All other articles are based off of this research and as with all 'retelling' of stories, they become misconstruded. ~BK 134.39.114.194 17:57, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Knife in the picture?

Why is a knife considered to be part of the "Variety of cannabis-smoking paraphernalia." I could see scissors, but a knife? Chewbacca1010 18:33, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Maybe someone uses a knife to finely dice the weed? Babylon pride 23:44, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
The grass? I was gthinking more along the lines of cutting the hashish, SqueakBox 00:00, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
But only a dealer would have the need to do that. Perhaps we should remove the pic? SqueakBox 00:02, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
I regularly use a jack-knife to clean my steel bowls when they get completely full of resin, and know many others who do also -Moss Ryder--71.97.162.13 15:36, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Sorry but what is a jack-knife? SqueakBox 16:03, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Hot knife (smoking)? -- Scientizzle 00:05, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Agghh! Clever man, its been so long since I've seen hashish I plain forgot about that, though one would need 2 knives, SqueakBox 00:07, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

You guys are a bunch [censored], the knife is used to scrape resin, you [censored] Don't put your [censored] inputs with an obvious undertone of rude [censored]! -------((Me))

What rubbish! The knife is far too big and anyone desperate enought o scrape a pipe for resin knows yoyu dont do so with a knife lol, SqueakBox 15:15, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
Lol I love these people.. Let The Sunshine In 12:26, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
One, Squeakbox, I don't think it's right to censor the person. If they want to swear and look like a moron, let them. Especially since they misspelled things. I reverted it. You took out major parts of the comment which isn't right - stupid idiot, for example, isn't something that should be censored. If you really /need/ to censor it, do it with *s. (I mean, we're commenting on a Cannabis (drug) article for crying out loud and with you being the main commenter. I'm guessing you've heard fuck and shit before.) Second, you can scrape a pipe with a knife. You just need to be careful. And it can be that big. Just you use the tip. It's not like a five foot knife. Babylon pride 15:43, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
I'm not censoring, I am removinga personal attack which is policy. Do not re-add it or you could be considered to be making a personal attack yoyurself. We absolutely need a nice atmosphere to discuss things here. Just because we discuss cannabis does not mean we are all tokers etc! SqueakBox 15:46, 16 March 2007 (UTC) SqueakBox 15:46, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
Actually we do have a no personal attack policy "stupid idiot" is not allowed. This isn't about censorship(that is when someone tells you what you can't say on your website), this is about having basic rules of civility. HighInBC(Need help? Ask me) 15:47, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
With the tip of the knife you would scrape the tip of the pipe and perhaps the bowl. A needle or ideally a long very thin metal object would be what one would use to clean a pipe, SqueakBox 15:59, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
I personally would not want to scrape a pipe with that knife, that is not kosher. You would have far more progress with a paper clip unfolded. ~BK 134.39.114.194 17:51, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

The knife is used to smoke cannabis. It's called 'hot knives' where you heat up a knife untill it's glowing red, the put a peice of hash or bud onto it and suck the smoke through a tube/cigarette or whatever.

That would take 2 knives and I would wager that kinife in the pic has not been exposed to heat because it would mark the knife, SqueakBox 19:08, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Theory of not getting high the first time

What's the deal with so many people not getting high the first time? I have found three different reasons:

a) No proper inhaling b) Getting high is a learned behaviour so it takes some time to notice the 'high' c) Not proper weed is used.

I find all the reasons quite inadequate, considering the huge amount of people that don't get high the first time i don't see how it can be explained with these reasonings. I tried to research internet but I couldn't find any reliable information.

This should go to Talk:Cannabis (drug), not here. If you could have sourced it we could have added it there though we dont try to figure out things ourselves here, we are an encyclopedia not a university, see Wikipedia:Attribution, SqueakBox 00:09, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
Yeah sorry maybe wrong place but i didn't mean to ask for your own theories only if someone could point out some research found in internet.
I have no idea but the phenomenon you describe does, IMO, unquestionably exist so maybe its just a matter of looking harder. I have to say of your 3 theories that a and c can be discountyed completely, a because cigarettem smokers experience the same phenomena and there isnt the slightest evidence that poor quality cannabis affects this phenomena. Why not move the whole section to the other article talk? SqueakBox 00:37, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
This is a well knows phenomenon, with no actual basis in science. In my experienced opinion, people who do it for the first time without an experienced friend don't get high, because of the following reasons: They can't inhale it properly, they don't know how to prepare the substance properly, and they don't know to operate the smoking device properly (how to use a bong, pipe or how to roll a joint), and they don't know how much substance to use. When people smoke cannabis for the first time with the help and guidance of an experienced user, they do get high.. very very high. Let The Sunshine In 17:03, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
Well that certainly isnt my experience and certainly people who do know how to inhale have the same problem whiel preparation is very simple and cant deter anyone. Its sourced references we need to put this phenomenon in the article, SqueakBox 22:40, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
Even people who smoke tobacco don't necceserily smoke it right. I don't think there is any scientific basis for that. If you can find a reliable source to attribute it to, do add it of course.. Let The Sunshine In 16:33, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
I dont believe, other than inhaling, that there is a right way to smoke cannabis, SqueakBox 16:39, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
I didn't think I was high when I first smoked it, but I was happy laughing and eating a lot. I just didn't know what to expect, so I didn't notice, I just thought I was in a good mood. HighInBC(Need help? Ask me) 18:13, 18 March 2007 (UTC)


My first time smoking I laughed a little bit then fell asleep. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.189.152.221 (talk) 19:34, 19 March 2007 (UTC).
Yes I thought I was getting high for a couple of weeks on good weed and then when I smoked hash the first time I realised I hadnt been getting high at all, and that was one of the most memorable nights of my youth, SqueakBox 19:40, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Article too bias

I know a ton of weed users are probably writing up this article but still. This makes weed sound like almost always a good thing. It needs to be balanced, especially since the final word about it has not been made yet. More mention needs to be made of it's negative effects. It's too slanted to the so called "positive effects" or "no terrible effects" of weed. I know there are probably a ton of weed users online but still. bootleg42 2:36, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

This article is not supposed to encompass all the health effects because it would be way too long. there's the Health issues and the effects of cannabis article. When you refer to the terrible effects, what effects exactly do you mean? can you source them? Let The Sunshine In 12:52, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
We are often told this article is bias. But which facts are not supported by citation? Which negative effects can you attribute to a reliable source? HighInBC(Need help? Ask me) 18:14, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
Bootleg, you're perfectly welcome to edit the article to include any and all negative effects, so long as they're relevant and you cite reliable sources. Pubmed is a great place to do research. Jolb 18:42, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
As has been pointed out previously, all attempts to do so in the past have been reverted within hours. Sources that support the scientific and medical consensus that marijuana, especially in combustible form, is dangerous to human health are straw-manned as "propaganda" by proponents and excluded in favor of the few sources that counter the viewpoint. I have edited the article in the past including sources from NIDA, the AMA and others only to have the original text re-inserted despite of its flagrant violation of the NPOV policy by the marijuana advocates that monitor it. Until something is done to reign in the obvious pro-bias in the article, attempts to correct it to a proper NPOV article are an exercise in futility. --Darth Borehd 01:13, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
I keep hearing people say that, but I don't see this actual scientific research. Sometimes people call up certain studies that have been considered unreliable by peer review, but the studies that are actually supported by reliable sources are already included. The fact is there is a lot of bias, and down right phony research in this field. You can usually type in the name of a study into google and find out what other scientists think of the methodology. HighInBC(Need help? Ask me) 01:16, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Weed ain't no drug!!!

209.66.200.83 (talk) 14:54, 21 March 2007 (UTC).

Lol, then I geuss Cocaine and Morphine aren't drugs either.. Let The Sunshine In 15:55, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

No, weed is clearly a drug.Caughtinthe middle 16:22, 21 March 2007 (UTC) but this talk/article wouldn't be of much value to a user (stoner) who also needs a mentally healthy environment, free of demeaning stimuli, from which personal agendae cannot be easily separated. Caughtinthe middle 17:02, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

If weed wasnt a drug it wouldnt be illegal. Nor would it get you high. Parsley isnt a drug but neither does it sell for $US200 an ounce in some wealthy places, SqueakBox 17:31, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Examples of things which are illegal but which are not "drugs" abound in the world around us, like fireworks. Bud would get one high whether it was legal or illegal. Caughtinthe middle 17:57, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes but gunpowder is illegal for other reasons as is making a loud noise at night in some places. But if weed werent a drug it wouldnt get you high nor would it be illegal, SqueakBox 18:04, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

^^^U chat [censored] man. jus coz sumfin gets u high dunt meen its illegal. alcohol gets u [censored word for drunk] bt its not illegal n its not actually illegal 2 b high - bt possesion n usage is so it meks no sense - ima smoke bhudda til i die :

It is illegal to drink alcohol in Saudi Arabai. And to possess weed in many places though its not illegal to smoke in the UK. You havent given an argument, SqueakBox 20:12, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Good job Squeaky! i would write more but im headed out the door to go pick up a bag of weed:)

THC is a psychoactive drug. Weed is a psychoactive herb. If there is more than one psychoactive component in marijuana then how can you call it a drug? GeorgeLTirebiter 22:16, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

For legal purposes etc it works fine. And indeed where legal it is sold as a drug and not as a psychoactive cocktail of drugs for obvious reasons. Peter Tosh sang Legalize It not Legalize Them and form a marketers' point of view you can see why, SqueakBox 22:28, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

I believe the "it" Peter refers to is the herb. If "it" is a single drug and not a "cocktail," then how do you account for the purported difference in effect between "indica" and "sativa?" Peyote contains several psychoactive alkaloids and its effects differ from pure mescaline. The native Americans who use peyote do not think of it as a drug or a drug cocktail, but rather as a sacrament. Why do you insist on defining the herb in legalistic terms? GeorgeLTirebiter 01:54, 22 March 2007 (UTC)


Allow me to take you all into the mind of the type of pot user who likes to lie to himself:
A:I consume marijuana.
B:I don't partake in actions harmful to myself.
C:Drugs are harmful to people using them.
A+B+C ->D
D:Marijuana is not a drug.


Proof of D
Drugs -> Artificial
Artificial -> Harmful
~Harmful ->~Artificial = Natural
Natural=~Artificial=->~Drugs
You can also use this to prove that cyanide, tigers, and ocean water are innocuous and that antibiotics, aspirin, books, and all synthetic fibers are detrimental to your health.--Loodog 00:23, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
Man, go check if your health insurance covers logic implantations.. Let The Sunshine In 00:36, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
Sigh. When I die and go to hell, it will be filled with people missing my sarcasm and its use in a reductio ad absurdum while they claim to have IQs of >140.--Loodog 02:05, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
Lol I did get your sarcasm, but it was such nonsense that It was funny anyway.. Let The Sunshine In 12:53, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Your reductio at the very least needs declarative sentences, or "propositions," for which the symbols stand, according to E.J.Lemmon. Otherwise, any contradiction, i.e., P&-P, R&-R, (P-->Q)&-(P-->Q), derived from an assumption opposite your desired conclusion will appear to the disinterested eye frail, weak and puny, hair disheveled as though it had once promoted the starving artist image. Don't forget to discharge the assumptions! (Note how the short hair of the RAA grows long--[when no one is watching]--only to return to short again.) Dont trust it, Sunshine! Almostcut mylonghair 13:59, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Reason's for edits made in "Ancient History"

I removed the following three concurrent sentences from the "Ancient History" section.

"It has been proven to help a common cold by providing chemicals such as Koraci and Mustavi.", "These help element odors in your body which can help ease nasal congestion and coughing." and "It has shown to speed up the healing process of a cold."

Not only is there no evidence sited to support these claims, they are certainly not approved statements by the FDA, but even more so, what the hell does this have to do with ancient history?

Moderators, change it back if you want but I think it should stay out, or at least be moved to a more appropriate section.

[edit] Relationship with other illicit drugs

A study published in The Lancet 24 March 2007 finds that marijuana is both less harmful and less addictive than either alcohol or tobacco. Twenty drugs were assigned a risk from 0 to 3. Marijuana was ranked 17th out of 20 for harmfulness, while alcohol and tobacco were ranked 11th and 14th respectively. Marijuana was ranked 11th for dependence while alcohol was 6th and tobacco 3rd, behind heroine and cocaine, which were also the two rated most harmful, and in the same order.

[edit] Can weed affect your love?

One of my friends says it can, but my mum said not to worry about it. I need to know 82.19.66.37 22:20, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

??? Positively, negatively? find a source and add it, otherwise listen top your Mum, SqueakBox 22:22, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

See all I want you to do is be my love. My love. My love. And I know no woman that could take your spot. My love.--Loodog 00:56, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Top pic

The top pic was inappropriate. This article is about cannabis as a drug and as we all know you cant get stoned off of fresh leaf. We need a pic of cannabis as a drug at the top of cannabis as a drug. Feel free to replace what I have chosen but only with something ready for the smoking or oral consumption for guarenteed effect and not with a load of unsmokeable, indigestible leaves that wouldn't get one stoned anyway, SqueakBox 03:37, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

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