Talk:Canadian titles debate

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Resolution text and source docs' (from http://www.tv.cbc.ca/national/pgminfo/black2/doc9.html) in case someone thinks they should be added to article...

Address of the Nickle Resolution

"We, Your Majesty's most dutiful and loyal subjects, the House of Commons of Canada in Parliament assembled, humbly approach Your Majesty, praying that Your Majesty may be graciously pleased: –

(a) To refrain hereafter from conferring any title of honour or titular distinction upon any of your subjects domiciled or ordinarily resident in Canada, save such appellations as are of a professional or vocational character or which appertain to an office.

(b) To provide that appropriate action be taken by legislation or otherwise to ensure the extinction of an hereditary title of honour or titular distinction, and of a dignity or title as a peer of the realm, on the death of a person domiciled or ordinarily resident in Canada at present in enjoyment of an hereditary title of honour, or titular distinction, or dignity or title as a peer of the realm, and that thereafter no such title of honour, titular distinction, or dignity or title as a peer of the realm, shall be accepted, enjoyed or used by any person or be recognized.

All of which we humbly pray Your Majesty to take into your favourable and gracious consideration."

May 22, 1919

Regulations respecting the acceptance and wearing by Canadians of Commonwealth and foreign orders, decorations and medals

GENERAL

1. The acceptance by Canadian citizens of foreign orders, decorations and medals, of whatever kind or class, is subject in each instance to prior approval by the Government of Canada and publication in the Canada Gazette.

2. Approval is NOT given to accept an order or decoration—

(a) which carries with it a title of honour or any implication of precedence or privilege; (Note: The regulations do not apply to the acceptance of academic degrees and the use of professional and academic titles conferred by institutions in other countries.)

(b) which is conferred otherwise than by the Head or Government of a Sate recognized by Canada as such;

(c) which is in recognition of services by a member of the Canadian Armed Forces or by an officer or employee of an agency of the Crown in Canada in the fulfillment of his normal duties and offered before, on or after the completion of a tour of duty in the donor country;

(d) which is in relation to events more than five years prior to the proposal for the award;

(e) which is at variance with considerations of general policy or public interest.

3. Approval is, otherwise, contemplated in the case of any Canadian citizen (including members of the Canadian Armed Forces and of the public services of Canada and the provinces of Canada) to whom an honour or decoration is offered on one of the following grounds:

(a) for an extraordinary service to mankind;

(b) for conspicuous bravery in saving or attempting to save life;

(d) for services rendered while in the salaried employment of the donor country;

or in recognition of an exceptional achievement or service.

4. Qualified approval may be given to the wearing of orders and decorations conferred on a member of the Canadian Armed Forces or an official in recognition of personal attention to a foreign Head of State on the occasion of State or other official visits.

5. Approval is generally given to accept orders and decorations conferred on Canadian citizens who have dual nationality, provided acceptable evidence is offered that the recipient is ordinarily resident in or has a closer actual connection with the donor country.

MEDALS

6. The acceptance and wearing of medals are subject to the foregoing regulations in the same way as orders and other State decorations.

7. Polar Medal. Any Canadian may accept the Polar Medal when conferred in recognition of services rendered as a member of a Commonwealth team in an expedition organized or sponsored by one or more Commonwealth governments.

8. Medals awarded by private societies for saving or attempting to save a life should be worn on the right breast and not on the left.

9. Applications will be considered for permission to wear foreign medals gained in war-like operations, provided such permission is consistent with general policy and public interest.

APPLICATION AND INTERPRETATION

10. The application and interpretation of these regulations are subject to advice and recommendations from the Government Decorations Committee.

Secretary of State Department Ottawa, 1968

POLICY RESPECTING THE AWARDING OF AN ORDER, DECORATION OR MEDAL BY COMMONWEALTH OR FOREIGN GOVERNMENT

1. Any Commonwealth or foreign government desiring to award an order, decoration or medal to a Canadian citizen shall obtain the prior approval of the Government of Canada.

2. Commonwealth and foreign governments desiring to award orders, decorations or medals to Canadian citizens shall submit their proposals to the Government of Canada through their diplomatic missions in Canada.

3. The Government of Canada will consider granting the approval referred to in section 1 for the awarding of an order, decoration or medal offered in recognition of:

(a) an extraordinary service to mankind;

(b) conspicuous bravery in saving or attempting to save life;

(d) any substantial act or acts contributing to better relations between Canada and the country desiring to make the award.

4. The Government of Canada SHALL NOT grant the approval referred to in section 1 of an award:

(a) that is at variance with Canadian policy or the public interest;

(b) that carries with it an honorary title or confers any precedence or privilege;

(d) that is conferred in recognition of services by an individual in the employ of Her Majesty in Right of Canada or of a province in the normal performance of official duties; or

(e) that is in respect of events occurring more than five years before the offer of the award.

5. The Honours Policy Committee may advise and recommend on the interpretation and application o this policy and on the disposition of cases arising therefrom.

Original signed by Paul Tellier

January, 1988

1 A spotty history of application
2 Clean-up required
3 Confusing Passage
4 POV
5 Order of Saint John
6 Other examples of Canadians getting British honours

[edit] A spotty history of application

Even beyond the period of Bennett's premiership when the resolution was not in force, at least two Canadians have been made peers by the Monarch. For example, Roy Thompson was made first hereditary Baron Thomson of Fleet in 1964, and upon his death the barony passed to his son Ken.

In my opinion, it is foolish anyway to prevent Canadian citizens from being made nobles of countries other than our own, and I haven't a clue what nonsense was rattling about in Nickle's head to make him want to cease this. --coldacid 01:40, 2005 Mar 22 (UTC)

It's not quite accurate to say that the Nickle Resolution was "reaffirmed" or that "the former policy ... has been in effect ever since", because the Nickle Resolution applies to "subjects domiciled or ordinarily resident in Canada" whereas the subsequent Regulations (1968) and Policy (1988) apply to Canadian citizens. This reflects the coming into existence of Canadian citizenship, but is not merely an idempotent change of wording (though it may be the closest possible). I don't think that Conrad Black fell under the original wording at the time of the controversy over his peerage.

The present topic may have some bearing on the question of the unity of the Commonwealth Crown. Was the Canadian government's request that Black not be ennobled passed to the British government, or directly to the Queen? If the latter, it would illustrate that the "Queen of Canada" and the "Queen of the United Kingdom" are not totally independent; for no advice given by the Canadian government to the former could then affect the action taken by the latter in awarding an honour to one of her own (i.e. British) citizens on the advice of the British Prime Minister. See also Talk:Royal and Parliamentary Titles Act. G Colyer 13:05, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Clean-up required

This article is ridiculously long to have no sections or organisation. There are several bits that are also completely off-topic and POV. DoubleBlue (Talk) 07:28, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Confusing Passage

Am I the only one who can't understand the following passage from the article? "Its adoption and use as a precedent in the area of titular honours for Canadians also informs the history of the creation of the Order of Canada in 1967, which was designed to bestow no titular honours on those recipients whom the Government of Canada recommends that the Queen of Canada honour with membership in the Order." HistoryBA 23:26, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] POV

The article seems quite biased against the Nickle Resolution and against Nickle in particular. For all its detail, it did not mention (until my edit a few minutes ago) that Nickle didn't simply write his resolution on the back of an envelope one day but was appointed to head a special committee to look into the honours question.Homey 10:32, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Order of Saint John

Although this may be a little iffy in terms of British Honours, according to the book Her Excellency Jean Sauvé by Shirley E. Woods, Jean Sauvé was made a Dame of Justice in the Order of Saint John during her visit to England shortly following her swearing in as Governor General of Canada. This was in addition to being Order in Prior and Chief Office in Canada. Perhaps this might fit somewhere ? Dowew 00:47, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Other examples of Canadians getting British honours

Although titicular honours would be more approriate to this article, I am going to look for example and anomalies of Canadians getting British Honours : Dowew 00:06, 28 December 2005 (UTC)