Talk:Caló (Chicano)

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Thanks for moving the page. I am a total noob and didn't know how. Pozole 20:54, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] List

I suggest moving the list to its own article, List of Caló (Chicano) words and expressions. And some structure, possibly a table, would be nice, with three different columns (one for the word or phrase, one for translation into standard Spanish, and one for translation into English. And alphabetization. The "Usage" section could remain in the primary article. I'm not quite sure how to do tables yet, so I may need help if the suggestion is accepted.--Rockero 22:57, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

I change my mind! I think we should eliminate the list of words and expressions. I found my Dictionary of Pachuco Terms yesterday, and there are far too many. In addition, the list is constantly being added to by IPs and non-experts who add words of Mexican slang, gang slang, and Spanglish words that may or may not actually fall under the definition of Caló. Select words and expressions ought to be included as examples of rhyming, influence from English, archaisms, and mini-jokes, but the list is a bad idea. IMO, the article needs to be re-written from the source material.--Rockero 17:54, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

Since Caló is a language, this section should be called "Caló (Chicano language)—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Cityside Seraph (talk • contribs).

It's not a language, it's an argot, which is different. However, since the use of Caló predates the prevalence of the term "Chicano", a rename may be warranted.--Rockero 22:10, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree. Calo (also commonly spelled "Caló") is more accurately described as an "argot" (from French meaning "jargon of the criminals") instead of a "language" - despite that it does tend to exhibit a hybrid set of rules from both the English and Spanish languages.

With respect to your concern that the list of words and expressions is constantly being added to by "IPs" (Independent Parties) and "non-experts" (?) who add words of "Mexican slang", "gang slang", and "Spanglish words that may or may not actually fall under the definition of Caló", I note your concern. Yet, as it is with all languages, Calo is a constantly evolving form of communication being used by "the people" or "public" at large. Attempting to edit the greater population out of a public forum so open as this would be nearly impossible in addition to being just plain “wrong”.

It would be good to remember that Calo (Chicano slang) neither originated nor proliferated through the usage of any “one” specific regionalized group. There is no one body that can be considered the only so-called "experts". This would be similar to saying that American English has a sole body of authority and expertise that can be drawn on to reference all of the variations of American English that currently exist. Such a body doesn’t exist. Additionally, it should be kept in mind that the proliferation of Chicano “Calo” (as opposed to the archaic “Caló “of Spanish Romani) has come about from a preponderance of usage by the pachuco initially and now the cholo and lowrider communities as well. To disregard this modern day influence would not be accurate. This is especially true if one is considering that the so-called expert is someone who has received their exposure to Calo in an academic setting as opposed to the streets or society outside of the schools. The opinions of those who are most likely to use Calo habitually in every day speech, i.e.; a cholo in the barrio; a lowrider car enthusiast at a show; a police officer in the streets; a gang counselor; a "chavala" (little girl in the barrio); or a Chicano inmate in prison, etc., are more than merely needed they are crucial for a discussion such as this. When attempting to discuss the origin and usage of “Chicano Calo”, it should always be kept in mind that it is has evolved from the streets to then be analyzed, scrutinized, and thus “occasionally” used by academics in their research and reference of Chicano cultura and “not the other way around”. Any article which attempts to accurately describe the usage of Calo in society “must” be open and inclusive to all of the parties who use it. To not include the words and expressions of that population most likely to use Calo daily in speech would be more than merely wrong. It would be a travesty. If anything, an expansion of the list of words and expressions should be encouraged as this would do much good for both us researchers in field and those of us who also actually do use Calo in life.

I also agree with your receptivity to the possibility of a rename for this subject's article. As it is currently named, the possibility of a misimpression is being given to those who have “no familiarity” with either of the words "Calo" and/or "Caló" and “Spanish Romani Caló” (jargon of the Spanish gypsies) and/or “Chicano Calo”. To that greater population which is unfamiliar with either “Calo” and even the term "Chicano" for that matter (which is many), it may appear that “Caló” is an alternative way of saying Chicano. I'm certain that no one here who has contributed to this article in the past or wishes to do so in the future would like such an ambiguity to be the case. This just may make the difference on whether or not some of these potential readers click on the article at all. Some of these types may feel they already know all there is to know about the Chicanos, our cultura, and the slang being used.

As such, considering all of the above, I’ve created a new article entitled, “Calo (Chicano slang)”. Notice that Calo does not exhibit the accented “ó”. This is done purposely for a number of reasons. Primarily, yet again (just as in the time of the Chicano Movimiento) here is a Chicano attempting to create a distinct impression that there is a difference between what a Chicano’s reality is and something else. There are major differences between modern Chicano slang and archaic Spanish gypsy jargon. This and the fact that I’ve hardly ever heard anyone who actually “speaks” Chicano slang ( who also knows that it even has a name – test this out ) pronounce it as “Caló” uttered with the sound of a hard accented “ó”. Test this supposition out. You’ll see. Generally, if one adheres to the rules of formal Spanish grammar, an "ó" as in "Caló" gives a hard inflection on the vowel with an "up" sounding pitch; whereas the "o" as in "Calo" gives a soft inflection on the vowel with a "soft" sounding pitch. Having been exposed to many countless Calo speaking individuals for over forty years, I can honestly say that I've rarely heard any of them say "Caló" but rather "Calo" with the soft sounding end. After all, isn’t this article being written in English and not Spanish? Haven’t most of us here noticed that the usage of Calo is most often done by those who use it while speaking “English”? To use an archaic Spanish spelling for an incorrect pronunciation of a living Chicano jargon which doesn't reflect the preponderance of its daily usage today just doesn't make sense. Again, Calo is an evolving form of communication being used now in our modern times. Similar to the pronunciation and spelling of our modern term for "encyclopedia", which evolved from the Greek "egkuklopaideia", to the English "encyclopaedia", to its present form; Calo should also reflect its present day evolution and sound.

Lastly, because you and another contributor have both expressed concerns about this article's list of words and expressions, you're thinking that it shouldn't have input from the so-called “non-experts” adding their own interpretation of Chicano slang, and the other believing it's "getting out of hand"; I’ve created a new article entitled “Calo (Chicano slang)” to be exactly that place where anyone can feel comfortably in posting exactly what they "know" to be Chicano slang.

For anyone who may be offended by the length of this post I apologize. I felt there was a need to further explain why an alternative article is needed and has now been created. I notice that the alternative article mentioned was already deleted once this week. I’m hoping that this will not occur again. Paz y Unidad. Cityside Seraph 05:00, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

In retrospect, "non-expert" wasn't the best word to use, especially considering the topic. But you should know that I am in favor of the list--I just don't want it to have unverifiable information. If we let every person that comes along to add the word he and his homies happen to be saying this week, then how would we distinguish valid additions from vandalism and nonsense?

As Chicano Wikipedians, we have to find a way to both conform to policy and present the information that people need. That's why we base a lot of things on consensus. If the article must grow in scope to include the present day, (which I don't really hear people calling the language they speak Calo, but your experience may obviously be different from mine) which is what your post is about, then it obviously must. But we must confront the fact that the publications we have on Caló all use an accent, and are pretty much all from at least twenty years ago.

My suggestion is that we update this article to reflect that the language is alive and therefore constantly changing, and if the lit really is all that old, we should mention that too. Then we use the List, which I suggest renaming, to list as many words and expressions as we want, (although I still like the idea of having a table) and then make sure that the people who are familiar with the issue keep an eye on it to make sure it doesn't get too crazy.

What does everyone else think?--Rockero 06:29, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

I have no problem with documenting Chicano slang, if for posterity's sake. Hell, I have a ton of contributions in my head (even though they violate wiki's "no original research" policy). BUT, all Chicano slang is not caló. I think the caló page needs to keep with the spirit of its creation -- as a sort of footnote to the Pachuco -- and we could use a List of Chicano Slang page, with a section dedicated to caló words. The existing list is horribly anachronistic. Murcielago 15:11, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

I think the dispute is over whether or not Calo is a living or dead language. Obviously, Chicanos still use slang. But do they still call it Calo? And are there any written materials about its contemporary usage? IMO, the answers to these questions should determine whether or not the recent expansion of the definition of "Caló" in the intro is warranted.--Rockero 16:43, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Words and Expressions

I tend to agree about the words and expressions getting out of hand. What complicates things is that (a) caló is in no way a formal language and even the Pachucos mixed their caló with Spanish slang; (b) Pachucos could be found from Tejas to Califas, and depending on region, their caló dialects differed as well. Here's a good example, from a 1950s telegram sent from a Pachuco in New Mexico to his brother upon the death of their father:

"A volar al chante. El jefito torcio. El jueves lo siembran. Tu carnal, Joe."

Note the caló (involving a rhyming scheme), mixed with slang, and the term "torcio" bearing a different meaning from the one listed in the current word list. Any thoughts are appreciated. Murcielago 23:37, 13 January 2006 (UTC)