Talk:Caging list
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Contents |
[edit] Definition
This doesn't really explain what the political practice of 'caging' is; it merely asserts that some politicians were accused of doing it, and opines-as-fact that fears are justified. -- Sylvar 14:27, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
I agree - with Sylvar. This doesn't explain what caging is, gives no example of what is actually done. This article serves no other purpose but to accuse, no information is actually gained. Chemboss
I disagree with you both. The first paragraph clearly states what, precisely, caging is. Following paragraphs elaborate upon it. Don't interpret the "Examples" as the definition and I think you'll agree.--TheMadTurtle 14:42, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Caging is not necessarily a bad political thing
For obvious reasons, I've restored the previous revision of the page, while incorporating the text of the most recent version of the page. While a "caging list" is a term of art in direct mail, it also has meaning in a political context.--SoLeft 07:07, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
As a direct mail professional, I can say with absolute certainty that caging and caging lists simply are what they are -- every direct mail piece, for every customer, political or otherwise, receives a caging list. While I certainly see your point, I believe that your information would be better suited for a page on voter suppression or perhaps a new page on caging list controversy. It simply is not accurate to put that information on the main caging list page.
RazorbacksFan, as you can see from the history of this page, it is the page on caging lists as the term applies to voter suppression; yours is the first complaint in two years that it should be otherwise. I think we should restore the previous version, more clearly distinguish between the two uses, and suggest a split between the two. I think that, rather than the complete elimination of two years of work, would be more appropriate. --SoLeft 06:07, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
SoLeft, I see your point on wanting to preserve your work -- I am primarily interested, as I know you are, in reaching the highest point of accuracy. What do you think about creating two pages? The first, the current "caging list" entry would stay pretty narrow and focus on the actual term, but reference the controversy in 2004 and link to the second page. The second page, "2004 Caging List Controversy," would contain the information regarding that topic, preserving your work and raising the overall accuracy and quality of both entries. Of course, the second article should also reference the first article and state that the actual term "caging list" has a much more technical meaning. --RazorbacksFan 6 September 2006
I am interested in preserving two years of contributions by several users, yes, and I'm also interested in usability. While the origin of the term "caging list" is clearly direct mail, most users, when the search for the phrase "caging list," are interested in its use as applied to voter suppression, not just in 2004, but in the 1981 New Jersey Gubernatorial election, the 1987 Louisiana statewide elections, and so forth. That's evident both from the fact that this article has been in existence for two years without any mention of its application to direct mail and from the fact that a google search on "caging list" doesn't turn up a direct mail reference . . . well, it's after more than a hundred entries, it seems. I'm open to a disambiguation page, but that's rather drastic, and until there's more information on both topics, I think unnecessary. --SoLeft 20:02, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Controversy is not addressed
I, too, came here looking for "caging list" in a political sense, but was surprised that there was a) little explanation of what a caging list was in the general, non-political sense, and b) zero discussion of the controversy of the issue. Having read the article, I have no idea what's so bad about it, and I feel like I should feel bad that I don't--and that, my dear, are tell-tale symptoms of NPOV. The article obviously argues that Reagan and George W Bush were monsters for questioning the living arrangements of people whose mail was returned as not living there by the post office (who I would assume is generally right on these matters.) Whether or not the results come back skewed against democrats is merely a positive side benefit. And if that's all caging is, I've done it all the time as my office sends out monthly newsletters whose real purpose isn't to keep people abreast of changes in our company but to see who's moved to skip out on their bill. All reasonable companies of a particular size do that. --Mrcolj 23:56, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
Hopefully, the recent addition to the article addresses the controversy in the 2004 election. SoLeft 19:21, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] NPOV
I've added the NPOV template to the "Examples" section, which is really (IMO) just a one-sided political screed. The whole paragraph could be replaced by a sentence and one or two neutral references. Joseph N Hall 05:32, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
- Please let me know what you think is screedy about it.
- For example, why is it relevant that the unqualified voters happened to be black? Couldn't the GOP's problem simply have been that they were UNQUALIFIED?
I moved the NPOV tag to the top of the article. Though really I only mean for it to apply one section above where it was, I figured if it could be applied to two sections, it was worth mentioning for the whole thing. (at least until that high-traffic link goes away) 71.199.182.207 11:13, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
Much of the article is clearly written from a partisan POV. I'm not aligned with the GOP or DNC so I feel pretty much equally about both of the big parties and really it seems that the GOP is taking an unfair beating here at the expense of some astroturf activists from moveon.org or the like. 65.87.166.149 12:11, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
- I think it's fine to document the alleged Republican "caging" activity, but the following should be observed: (1) "Examples" is not one example and more examples should be presented—I think that a single political example is wholly inappropriate; (2) an "Example" should be more like a paragraph than an entire section (which should contain several examples, see (1)); (3) any statements in the article must be supported by references that are not purely editorial and that are not obviously biased even if they contain reporting on facts; (4) an effort to find refuting/contrary/counterbalancing references should be made; and (5) if the truth of the allegations is clearly in dispute, then it isn't a fact (from the standpoint of an encyclopedia) and shouldn't be here presented as such. If the point of the "example" is to report on alleged Republican misconduct, then that should be an article in itself because it is not about "caging." Sorry for all the "quotes." I'd like to see more registered users commenting here. Joseph N Hall 17:04, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
- I re-applied the NPOV tag, because I don't see how the article really reads differently in a substantial way since it was removed, and because it still reads like an inventory of Republican transgressions. The article isn't titled "The Republican Use of Caging to Disenfranchise Minority Voters as Reported by Partisan Sources," so it shouldn't be written like that. And, finally, what does a sentence like "Whilst Florida statutory law allows the parties to challenge voters at the polls, this practice is not allowed if the challenges appear to be race-based" have to do with the topic at all? Joseph N Hall 19:06, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Unclear phrase
What does "which are heavily supported disadvantaged groups within that riding" mean? Hackwrench
[edit] NPOV rewrite
It looks like we've had a considerable number of comments from those who either don't see caging list as an exclusively political term, or are offended or confused at the perceived bias with which the current article is written. There is controversy here, and no mention of it in the article, and that's also a point of confusion to many. I vote that we have enough of these comments to justify a rewrite factoring in the concerns listed above, for the first person that's in the mood. So be bold and see what happens--the wikipedia is as much an experiment in democracy as the US. --Mrcolj 14:00, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
