Talk:Côte d'Ivoire

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was no consensus Patstuart^talk|edits 05:45, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Côte d'Ivoire → Ivory Coast. It's time again.

1. Côte d'Ivoire is not English and is in violation of Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English) (and Côte d'Ivoire is not quite French, the official language of Ivory Coast [that would be Côte-d'Ivoire])
2. Côte d'Ivoire violates Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names) which states that, "The title: When a widely accepted English name, in a modern context, exists for a place, we should use it. This often will be a local name, or one of them; but not always."
3. Côte d'Ivoire is less commonly used than Ivory Coast and violates Wikipedia:Naming conventions#Use common names of persons and things
4. Côte d'Ivoire violates guidelines such as Wikipedia:Guide to writing better articles#Use other languages sparingly ("Non-English words should be used as titles for entries only as a last resort") and Wikipedia:Guide to writing better articles#Principle of least astonishment (/kot divwaʀ/ is supposed to be English?)

In addition, there are many other excellent reasons and statistical evidence presented above and in Talk:Côte d'Ivoire/Archive1

The primary argument for Côte d'Ivoire seems to be that the Ivorian authorities have dictated the usage of this form and that the UN concurs. Howver, Wikipedia is not beholden to following the dictates of any specific regime nor is it a manual of diplomatic protocol. It freely uses common English terms such as South Korea, East Timor, Brunei, and Vietnam that are in violation of UN and/or official usage. And other language Wikipedias do the same with Ivory Coast (see above). —  AjaxSmack  08:03, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

In fairness, the above paragraph does not correctly state the "primary argument". The real primary argument is that in this day of age, "Côte d'Ivoire" really has become the slightly more common usage in the English-speaking world, and "Ivory Coast" to many sounds almost as antiquated as "Upper Volta"... I still have not seen a convincing demonstration that "Ivory Coast" enjoys wider usage in the 21st century. ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 23:32, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Survey

Add #'''Move''' or #'''Keep''' in the appropriate section followed by a brief explanation (with further comment in the "Discussion" section), then sign your opinion with ~~~~

[edit] Move to Ivory Coast.

1. Move as nominator. —  AjaxSmack  08:03, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
2. Move per nom (especially WP:UE) - Evv 21:02, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
3. Support. One of the biggest problems is that the advocates of using the foreign name are never to be seen when it comes to getting related articles to sort properly in their categories. Gene Nygaard 01:22, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
4. Support --Yath 00:41, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
5. Support per all the reasons stated by the nominator, far mor common English name. TJ Spyke 07:11, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

   "Ivory Coast" is definitely not "far more common". The current name is actually now more common in English. --Polaron | Talk 07:20, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

6. Support. Use the English form... when it exists! Švitrigaila 09:43, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
7. Wikipedia is descriptive, not prescriptive; it doesn't matter what this country "should" be called in English (by whatever authority one happens to choose), only what it is called. I believe the evidence shows that it's most commonly called "Ivory Coast", and so there it should go. Bryan 06:32, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

   Which evidence would that be? All I've seen indicates the opposite. -GTBacchus^(talk) 23:14, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

8. Support English usage; it may be it will change, as the oppose votes suggest, but it hasn't. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 06:41, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
9. Support. Per nominator. I've never heard it called anything else in normal usage. Proteus (Talk) 08:16, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
10. Support- English use only in the English Wiki Astrotrain 09:51, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
11. Support-We don't use Norvgad for Norway, or Deutschland for Germany, or any other local name, we use English.Cameron Nedland 14:23, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
12. Support: Wikipedia does not use the official name of the country for article title, it uses the most common short form in English. The article will still give the official name at the beginning, probably in the first sentence. Jonathunder 14:37, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
13. Support the move: Even taxi drivers from the Ivory Coast in New York City call it "Ivory Coast" when speaking English. The only point is what the English name of the article should be. We are NOT implying anything about the "rightful name" of the country. Officially, it's "Cote D'Ivoire in all languages", which the article has always said. If they want to be cute, we should describe their cuteness; we need not abide by it; our standard is: what do most English speakers call it? --Uncle Ed 17:00, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
14. Support. If and when it becomes more commonly used, I will support it being at the present title. Deb 11:36, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

    I don't think it's clear that most English speakers call it Ivory Coast. When I was in an English-speaking African country, speaking English with English-speaking Africans, we all called it "Côte d'Ivoire". The google test isn't the be-all-end-all, but "Côte d'Ivoire" gets four times as many hits in a search restricted to Enlish-language pages (see Discussion section below). It also gets more hits on US government pages. It seems to me that WP:COMMONNAME comes down on the side of "Côte d'Ivoire". -GTBacchus^(talk) 21:41, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

15. Grillo 22:42, 12 January 2007 (UTC) (it's called Ivory Coast in English, period)

    What's your evidence for that claim? It seems to me that it's called Côte d'Ivoire in English, based on what I've seen in this discussion. "Côte d'Ivoire" outpaces "Ivory Coast" by 4 to 1, on English language pages. -GTBacchus^(talk) 23:01, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

16. Support as per nom, and, for the sake of English Wikipedia, not getting pushed around by national naming and/or spelling issues.-- Matthead ^discuß!     O       13:12, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Keep at Côte d'Ivoire.

1. Weak keep - I urge voters to have a good look through Talk:Côte d'Ivoire/Archive1 for previous discussions. I care not a whit for the 'Official' government request - my argument (see Archive1) is that neighboring anglophone countries like Ghana use the French form. Weak only because I am tired of this discussion.. Wizzy…☎ 09:32, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
2. Keep: The arguments to keep at Talk:Côte d'Ivoire/Archive1 not countered yet. It's "Côte d'Ivoire" for English speaking Africans like me who've actually been to the country. -- Jeandré, 2007-01-08t20:21z
3. Keep here, as endlessly discussed before. When a country changes its name from an archaic English name, we use the new name; our articles talk of neighbouring Ghana and Burkina Faso, not neighbouring Gold Coast and Upper Volta. Shimgray | talk | 20:34, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
4. Keep this is it's UN sanction official name that even the United States government as well as the UK acknowledge and use. I think that is good enough for the English encyclopedia. 205.157.110.11 21:23, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
5. Keep "Ivory Coast" is no longer the most common name in official use by the UN and the US State Dept. as well as others. --Polaron | Talk 15:24, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

   Rather misleadingly put. Ivory Coast is still in common use by the U.S. Department of State, however, as these hundreds of hits show. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Gene Nygaard (talk • contribs) 09:38, 10 January 2007 (UTC).

   "Cote d'Ivoire" is still more common by at least 4:1 --Polaron | Talk 21:17, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

   Comment If you restrict your search to .gov sites, you get 153,000 for "Ivory Coast" and 211,000 for "Cote d'Ivoire". -GTBacchus^(talk) 20:44, January 10, 2007 (UTC)

   Last time I checked, Wikipedia does not need US regime approval for article titles. —  AjaxSmack  23:08, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

   I certainly don't suggest that we do. I'm just pointing out another indicator of usage in the United States. I've yet to see any indicator that "Ivory Coast" is more common among English-speakers. -GTBacchus^(talk) 23:10, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

6. Lukewarm keep. Even if Ivory Coast is still prevalent, Cote d'Ivoire is steadily gaining ground, so if we move it, we'll probably just have to move it back in the future. --Groggy Dice T | C 21:06, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

   What is your evidence that it's "gaining ground"? Bryan 06:38, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

7. Keep per Shimgray. This is the proper name of the nation. GassyGuy 01:10, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
8. Keep - As I wrote above, Côte d'Ivoire is the official name in all languages. The CIA World Factbook lists the country by that name as well as FIFA amongst others. Argentina means "silver" in English, and yet no one calls it that in English. Similiarly, the "Rio Grande" isn't called the "Great River". Seems perfectly logical to me to extend the same courtesy to Côte d'Ivoire. -- Exitmoose 07:47, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

   Yes, English speakers call Argentina Argentina and Rio Grande Rio Grande but they call Ivory Coast Ivory Coast so you just made a case for moving the article. And "courtesy" is not relevant since Wikipedia is not a Ivorian regime agency or a diplomatic manual. —  AjaxSmack  23:08, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

   The evidence I've seen indicates that more English-speakers call the country "Côte d'Ivoire". Per WP:COMMONNAME, so should we. -GTBacchus^(talk) 23:13, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

   What evidence? Considering Côte d'Ivoire has non-English letters (ô) and sounds (/vwaʀ/) to start with it seems unlikely English-speakers outside of official circles would indulge in such exercises. Media actually read by civilian English speakers continue to use Ivory Coast (see here). —  AjaxSmack  23:23, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

   The evidence I'm talking about is that there appear to be four times as many English language pages in Google's index containing "Côte d'Ivoire" than there are containing "Ivory Coast". I've also seen plenty of maps and such publications - printed in English - calling the country "Côte d'Ivoire". Under the link you provided, we learn from one commenter that all of the textbooks in his school library that were published in the last 10 years call it "Côte d'Ivoire". Also, I've travelled in Europe and Africa, and had conversations with English-speakers in English, and in every case, we called it "Côte d'Ivoire". I particularly remember my Nigerian roommate in Kenya, who didn't speak French, but called the country "Côte d'Ivoire". These conversations were quite "outside of official circles". Perhaps it's surprising that so many English speakers are willing to utter a French-sounding name, but it's true nevertheless.

   I grant that we also have evidence that, in many publications, "Ivory Coast" is more common. I don't, however, think we can estatblish that it's the more common usage among English-speakers. -GTBacchus^(talk) 23:41, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

9. Keep per official recognized name. Doing google searches for hit count is almost pointless, because the name change is so recent. Older references will not have changed, and to expect every other online presence to be able to react as swiftly as we are capable of is highly optimistic. The US gov't (for example) has recognized the new name, but, as pointed out above, there are still some lingering usage of the antiquated name (many of the cited hits are transcriptions of verbal exchanges, and many of them are questions from press members, etc... ). Neier 08:32, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
10. Keep Per Neier use official name--Barry^talk 14:03, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
11. Keep per Barry. Bramlet Abercrombie 15:01, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
12. Keep. Why is it that if one side doesn't like a vote result, we have to keep voting until they get the result they want? But when they do like it, then it's final, eh? Maybe we should hold regular elections on the title of this article once every four years? ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 18:24, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
13. Strong keep - In October 1985 the government requested that the country be known as Côte d'Ivoire in every language, without a hyphen between the two words (thereby contravening the standard rule in French that geographical names with several words must be written with hyphens). AJAXsmack, you must understand that the guidelines mentioned above respect official namings. Many "support" votes above do not understand that the official name of this country is Côte d'Ivoire and think it is only a French transliteration. Please do not confuse proper names w/ the rest, otherwise we'd be needing to replace Nike, Inc. w/ Victory Inc..-- Szvest - ^{Wiki me up ®} 19:20, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

    Wikipedia is not a diplomatic handbook and is not required to follow the dictates of any regime. Many of Wikipedia's articles are at unofficial names such as South Korea (not Republic of Korea), East Timor (not Timor Leste), Soviet Union (not Union of Soviet Socialist Republics), Kiev (not Kyiv), and Washington, D.C. (not District of Columbia). —  AjaxSmack  23:08, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

    Who cares what the régime of Ivory Coast says?Cameron Nedland 01:38, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

14. Keep – I do. Since there is no convincing evidence that "Ivory Coast" is more widely used than "Côte d'Ivoire" among speakers of English worldwide, I see no reason to defy the government's request and possibly provoke political controversy. I don't regard news reports as "convincing" because the language conventions of news agencies are determined by centralized editorial boards, which may or may not make their decisions according to what is most popular. Plus, there are hundreds of millions of English-speakers outside the West whose language conventions are ignored by the Western media. -- WGee 04:06, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
15. Keep - this seems to be by far the most common usage worldwide, and is also the official name according to the many sources cited by others. Do any major international organizations call it Ivory Coast? Tuf-Kat 16:27, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
16. Keep. Two common names, of which this is the official one. Prolog 00:26, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
17. Keep. It may have been better known as "Ivory Coast" in the past but Côte d'Ivoire is clearly now the acceptable name. Per the country's request, governments and news services now all use that term and it therefore is the appropriate way to refer to the country in English. WJBscribe ^{(WJB talk)} 18:31, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
18. Keep per above. Baristarim 21:08, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
19. Keep as Cote d'Ivoire; the Wikipedia is not a repository for anachronisms. --McTrixie/Mr Accountable 02:58, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion

According to advanced Google search there are 5.430.000 hits for "Ivory Coast" on English pages, and 21.900.000 for "Côte d'Ivoire". So Ivory Coast is less commonly used than Cote d'Ivoire. -- Vision Thing -- 20:03, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

In this case, how do Google hits reflect usage for encyclopedic purposes? I.e., is it necessarily relevant to Wikipedia? (cf. fart vs. flatulence) —  AjaxSmack  23:16, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

We often use Google to measure usage on the Internet. It's a pretty imperfect measure, but I'm not aware of a better one that we can access, and I've yet to see any measure according to which "Ivory Coast" is more common in English language sources. Even allowing that the google test is imprecise, four to one is pretty far from equality. -GTBacchus^(talk) 23:18, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Usage on the internet is not general usage. Google hits reflect the plethora of UN and diplomatic documents online not usage of English speakers. For terminology in English-language media that civilians read, see here. —  AjaxSmack  23:27, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

And many of the hits for "English" pages showing Côte d'Ivoire are actually to French text, as examioning them will show; there are better tests, including encyclopedias, at WP:NC (geographic names). Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:49, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

In cases like this one I like to see what other, more "established", encyclopedias prefer to do. In both Britannica and Encarta Côte d’Ivoire is used. -- Vision Thing -- 11:48, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Usage in English media

So no one strains a mouse finger, the text below is copied from Talk:Côte_d'Ivoire/Archive1#Vote. —  AjaxSmack  23:51, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

You could have also put the responses to Jtdirl that totally refuted all of his arguments on that same archive page... But rather than reproduce the entire archive page here, the archive page pretty well speaks for itself without being cherry-picked and selectively quoted... ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 00:20, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.