Talk:Butlerian Jihad

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Contents 1 Canon Controversy 2 False statement 3 School of mentats 4 When? 5 Conflicting account in the Dune Encyclopedia 6 Disambig page 7 Many differences 8 Reason for name "Butlerian"? 9 Landsraad ref in Rise of the thinking machines section

[edit] Canon Controversy

I Agree. I'm currently in the process of rereading the original series and I agree that the article should contain some mention of the differences between FH and B&K's jihads. Though he left the nature of the jihad vague, it seemed to be more a cultural and spiritual revolt rather than a war against machine overlords. Also, given the general nature of the Dune series and their focus on humanity, the notion that the Butlerian Jihad was a revolt against machine powers doesn't really fit. Several of the primary themes throughout the Dune series focus on human nature, so it would only be logical to assume that Frank Herbert's vision of a cultural and mental revolution does not fit with B&K's idea of a Terminator-like war.

User: LetoAtreides 11:24 EST, 30 January 2006

Difference between Frank and Brian/Kevin Jihads. I have reverted my edits which claim that FH and B&K's jihads are different. I believe whoever deleted them think that FH was so vague about it that B&K's interpretation 'fall under' his description and thus do not contradict him. This is where I disagree - FH does not give many facts (and I do not rely on the Dune Encyclopedia for them) but that there are several hints to what he meant. These are: Characters speak of machines as perversions and something that can 'trap' you into a sense of complacancy - not as a danger to your life and liberty. It is called a jihad, not a revolt or anything else - jihad denotes something religious, connotations which a Terminator-like war in space does not evoke. 'Thou shalt not disfigure the soul' is the single commandment the OC bible creators first came up with, 'thou shalt not make a machine in the likeness of a human mind' fits into this i believe (another reason for believing the revolt was religious in nature).

I collected some quotes from FH's novels below, the word robot or cyborg hardly ever appears in the books - and nowhere is there any hint of men being literal slaves to machines not nor that the war took place with machines on one side and humans on the other. I am not claiming that the 'defenders' against the jihad did not use machines or even autonomous robots against the revolters - that is a possibility for sure. I am claiming that the jihad started for religious and philosophical reasons and was fueled by bigotry and hatred toward machines, probably fear that mankind was becoming unnecessary.

These are the reasons I reverted my edits - B&K have a much simpler and IMHO less interesting backstory than Herbert and they are not compatible. It is not the job of wikipedia to support B&K's claim that they are the literary heirs to FH, nor that they write what he would have written - they should be treated with the same respect as any fan-fic author until such time as they show the notes they claim to have.

"Once men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them."

Then came the Butlerian Jihad -- two generations of chaos. The god of machine-logic was overthrown among the masses and a new concept was raised: "Man may not be replaced."

JIHAD, BUTLERIAN: (see also Great Revolt) -- the crusade against computers, thinking machines, and conscious robots begun in 201 B.G. and concluded in 108 B.G. Its chief commandment remains in the O.C. Bible as "Thou shalt not make a machine in the likeness of a human mind."

(About a fencin machine - which is the closest thing to a robot in the Dune universe).

Its possession was the shibboleth of this age, but it carried also the taint of old immorality. Once, they'd been guided by an artificial intelligence, computer brains. The Butlerian Jihad had ended that, but it hadn't ended the aura of aristocratic vice which enclosed such things.

The human-computer replaced the mechanical devices destroyed by the Butlerian Jihad. Thou shalt not make a machine in the likeness of a human mind! But Alia longed now for a compliant machine. They could not have suffered from Idaho's limitations. You could never distrust a machine.

(So trusting the machine was never the problem).

One moment he felt himself setting forth on the Butlerian Jihad, eager to destroy any machine which simulated human awareness. That had to be the past -- over and done with. Yet his senses hurtled through the experience, absorbing the most minute details. He heard a minister-companion speaking from a pulpit: "We must negate the machines-that-think. Humans must set their own guidelines. This is not something machines can do. Reasoning depends upon programming, not on hardware, and we are the ultimate program!"

He heard the voice clearly, knew his surroundings -- a vast wooden hall with dark windows. Light came from sputtering flames. And his minister-companion said: "Our Jihad is a 'dump program.' We dump the things which destroy us as humans!"

(Leto II remebering genetically).

They made their devices in the image of the mind the very thing which had ignited the Jihad's destruction and slaughter.

(So the Jihad is started because of this 'image of the mind', not because of what that image then did).

"The target of the Jihad was a machine-attitude as much as the machines," Leto said. "Humans had set those machines to usurp our sense of beauty, our necessary selfdom out of which we make living judgments. Naturally, the machines were destroyed."

(Leto II again).

Odrade was suddenly aware she had touched on the force that had powered the Butlerian Jihad - mob motivation.

(People do not need motivation for survival, they need it to start a bloody, ideological revolt).

Lundse 13:21, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

I have added sections in the Frank Herbert talk page referring to this, and people interested in this matter might want to head over there and join the discussion. Lundse 09:59, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

I have changed a few parts to make them fit with a NPOV. They neither confirm nor deny that the prequels go against FH's novels. You and I have been over this elsewhere Lundse, there are many interpretations of Frank's original intent and we need to allow for that. Konman72 13:14, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Gotta remember that the Historical record had 10,000 years to be revised at the point that FH mentions the Jihad. With the Bene Gesserit and the Guild (and many others Im sure) writing and rewriting history in their best interests (or in the best interest of Humanity). Only a select few would have access to the real events that happened after that period of time. What did they gain by fostering a static/stagnant society? Something that was slow to change and predictable, and ultimately controllable.DrSad 13:37, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Some of these Frank Herbert quotes should really be incorporated in the article in a non-POV/OR way; they are cartainly notable but too much is left for interpretation to draw any conclusions. I'll make an attempt soon, but please don't eviscerate me, LOL. TAnthony 18:08, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

If anyone beats me to it, the Old Empire (Dune) article could also use some of the same citations; it currently includes the statement, "This differs from earlier indications by Frank Herbert that it was lack of computers following the Butlerian Jihad which led to man entering a 'second middle age.'" TAnthony 18:12, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] False statement

"The original Dune novel states that the Jihad ended in human victory at the Battle of Corrin. The leader of the Jihad then renamed his royal house "House Corrino", and declared himself Emperor of the Known Universe. The Emperors of the Empire of a Million Worlds were all of House Corrino for the next 10,000 years, until the events of Dune and the ascension of Paul Atreides."

There are two false statements in this sentence: neither was the winner of the Corrin-battle Sheuset ecevit the leader of Butlers Djihad nor were all emperors in the following 10000 years of Corrino descendance. There would also be Harkonnen Emperors and those did not rank among the least of the Padischahs! At a certain time who became new emperor would be decided by the Sardaukar who showed the tendency to install their favourite members of the court on the throne. The first padischah sheuset I. himself had nothing to do with Butlers Djihad as is deoicted here. In FH´s original timeline which was explained in detail in the dune encyclopedia Sheuset was a powerful local leader who united the warrior tribes of the Sardaukar on Salusa Secundus under his command. When Salusa was "discovered" by one of the great houses (this was already after Butlers Djihad) they recognised the deadly fighting prowess of the Sardaukar and intended to use them as mercenaries. But the Sardaukar (noew equipped with spaceships) conquerec and destroyed their "discoverers" and afterwards started a conquest of the whole known universe. The great houses felt they were in danger and united their forces to defeat sheusets sardaukar but failed because sardaukar proved to be invincible in close combat. The final battle of the Conquest was the battle of Corrin. After the battle Sheuset was declared to be emperor.He set the ruling laws for the next 10000 years, most notably the great convention and faufeluchs-the imperial caste system. The Battle of corrin was not a battle of Butlers Djihad! It took place long after. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 172.178.248.112 (talk • contribs) 09:33, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Are the Harkonnen emperors and other material in your comment from the Dune Encyclopedia? Although I am not too sure about the Butlerian jihad and the ascendancy of house Corrin being tied together, as you claim it was not, we need references to the original books (not something written by friends or son, ie. McNelly and Brian&Kevin). Lundse 08:06, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] School of mentats

In buttlerial Jihad the 1st memtat is actually trained by Erasmus, the excentric machine mind for fun. The mentats of course tell different story later, but I do not think there is any discontinuation, because the mentats did not want to know about their TRUE origins. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 192.100.124.219 (talk • contribs) 11:55, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

I clipped off the statement that connected the Bene Tleilax to mentats, since the Mentats were (became) their own school - just like the Swordmasters of Ginaz. As far as how the Jihad changed the Tleilaxu - it allowed them to start fresh after being decimated by scandal. A conversation by Erasmus and his captive Tleilax Master (for lack of a better term) touched on replacing flowmetal with a biological equivalent - maybe a hint at Facedancers? DrSad 21:14, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] When?

When did the BJ happen? (In Dune time reckoning, of course--BG or AG).

It started around 200 B.G. and ended in 108 B.G.. Then the Battle of Corrin took place in 88 B.G. which could be considered the end of the Jihad. Konman72 22:01, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Conflicting account in the Dune Encyclopedia

Which as a regrettable result of conflicting with recent lucrative prequels means it's permanently out of canon and will forevermore stay out of print! That said -- it does paint an interesting, and largely unrelated picture of an alternate Butlerian Jihad. Is there any reason that rapidly-fading alternative should not be at least noted somewhere here? Pseudo Intellectual

You make a good point; why not have content that conflicts with canon explored in the article for the Dune Encyclopedia itself? And perhaps some other interesting quotes/excerpts. As it's out of print, many people have never seen it. I don't know why that article isn't already full of such info, as there is so much controversy on the subject.

I did notice that the Encyclopedia talk page has some contributors suggesting such info be put under the Dune discrepancies article, but I disagree — the scope of that article is really canon works, that is, inconsistencies among Frank Herbert's own books, and then the Brian/Kevin books. The Encyclopedia falls out of that scope. TAnthony 03:07, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

I just recieved a near-perfect condition copy of the Dune Encyclopedia for my birthday. Joy! I didn't realize how rare it is until I started reading about it! I will cherish it always. And, I must say, I drastically prefer the events described in the encyclodia to the events that are currently accepted as "Canon". A philosophical "enslavement" to machines and a genuine jihad, rather than literally being slaves to machines. The whole computers are evil and will kill us thing is so old and overdone now, reading the Dune Encyclopedia's interpretation was a breath of fresh air. This version of the events should at least be discussed, in my opinion, even if it isn't canon. (Although, personally, it will always be "canon" to me...)PiccoloNamek 09:42, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Disambig page

I've reverted the link to the new Butlerian Jihad (disambiguation) page and instead put the Dune Encyclopedia reference within the article itself. This seems to be the convention among Dune articles with such references, and it does seem the most intuitive way to go. I think the real purpose of a disambig page is as a gateway to a term/name used in several unrelated topics; an alternate Dune reference doesn't seem to count. But I'll certainly leave the disambig page alone in case it is useful to someone. TAnthony 17:06, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Many differences

This article strikes me as biased. The fact is, the Butlerian Jihad as presented in Frank Herbert's novels is not consistent with the Jihad as presented in the Brian Herbert and Kevin Anderson novels. Some of those differences are explained above. Further, the Jihad as it was outlined in the Dune Encyclopedia is also inconsistent with the Jihad from the Brian Herbert and Kevin Anderson novels.

Brian and Kevin's current "Dune Universe" may officially be canonical, since it is produced by the current copyright holders, but it conflicts with earlier continuity. Although the Encyclopedia is no longer considered canonical, there was a time when it was. The "Dune Universe," as such, has not been static but has been changing with time.

I propose that either this article be split into three sections, arranged chronologically:

• An outline of the Jihad as it was in Frank Herbert's novels, where the "Thinking Machines" were obviously intended to refer to computers and to people's dependence on them, not to physical fighting machinery - and of the cultural influence this interpretaion had on the real world at the time;
• a summary of the Butlerian Jihad back-story from the Dune Encyclopedia;
• and the third section being the current summary of the Kevin Anderson and Brian Herbert version

or that alternately, there be three articles, one for each of the versions. That was my intent in establishing the disambiguation page.

Macduff 17:51, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

I am totally with you on sectioning the article; many Dune articles which span both the original series and one of the prequel series are sectioned this way (Shaddam Corrino IV, Hasimir Fenring, Margot Fenring, Ix (Dune)). Contributors just have to be very careful about POV and original research when writing these sections and pointing out discrepancies. In the example of the classic Dune series itself, I would quote direct passages from the texts, not summarize, and let readers interpret them. By then providing contradicting direct quotes from the prequels, readers can determine discrepancies on their own. This is really the only way to do it and abide by Wikipedia content rules. Again, it's a bit of a slippery slope, but there are plenty of peoople out there who will slash out the original research wording and leave the acceptable stuff. I'll try to contribute myself.

I think a properly-referenced section with info from the Dune Encyclopedia is totally appropriate. As far as the canon status, though, the Encylopedia may have been "undisputed" for a time, but Herbert himself in the forward reserved his right to diverge from it and did later contradict it. He was OK with it, but he didn't write or edit it so it's basically just fan fiction. Not that I don't own a copy!!! TAnthony 18:51, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Sectioning is fine, but we cannot state objectively that the BJ as presented in the original series is different from the one in the prequels. The fact is, the Jihad is only mentioned a few times and every time it is done so with a certain ambiguity. If you intererpreted it as "computers" rather than "fighting machines" then that is fine but that is your opinion and cannot be presented here as fact. Also I would say that the sectioning should be original, prequel, minor mentioing of DE. The DE is not canon and so it should not be given as much emphasis as the other canonical works. By the way, never assume that something is "obviously intended" to mean anything, especially when writing an encyclopedia article ;) Konman72 19:37, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

OK, I did a quick edit (before reading Konman72's comments) but I think we're on the same page. Good point about "computers" vs. "fighting machines" by the way, that seems to be the issue everyone argues about! I am, of course, on the side that believes Frank wasn't imagining a network of iPod's lulling us into submission, but instead some kind of tougher domination. But that stays out of the article.

And Macduff, in case you haven't noticed, Konman72 is one of the Dune POV/OR commandos I was referring to earlier! TAnthony 19:47, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Why not expand coverage of the Jihad in the Dune Encyclopedia article? (iPod's lulling us into submission. Hee hee. That's the kind of reduction of an argument I love!) SandChigger 21:56, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I kind of like having the bulk of the DE detail confined to that article, especially since it is non-canon. But I can see the value of having some Jihad info from the DE in this article, as the variances are such a debated issue. Somebody needs to write something so we can pick it apart and move it around! LOL TAnthony 23:02, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Reason for name "Butlerian"?

Probably the original meaning of "Butlerian" was actually a reference to the anti-machine chapters in Samuel Butler's classic book Erewhon... AnonMoos 05:08, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

That's a very popular idea among certain factions of the fan base. (I'm rather partial to it, myself.) Unfortunately, we need a citation from FH's writings or interviews supporting it.

There is no quote in the original books that I can find stating that the name came from the leader or figurehead of the Jihad. Jehane Butler is an invention of the (real-world) authors of The Dune Encyclopedia, and Serena Butler must be assumed to be one of BH & KJA, pending provision of definitive proof to the contrary. --SandChigger 11:18, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Has anyone ever written anything proposing this theory? We could just say something like, "Writer so-and-so theorizes that ..." and give a reference. -- Macduff

I don't know of any. Was there something about it in the O'Reilly book? Or the Touponce? (Haven't read the latter, or reread the former in a while.) But, yes, we should be able to include something that way.

Unfortunately, anything not based on FH's own writings or things he said in published interviews—even if by a respected critic—can be dismissed (by those so minded) as simply speculation. :( --SandChigger 20:12, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

There's also the "Some fans speculate that..." option. At least that way the idea would get mentioned. I think that if people want to dismiss the idea, that's fine, our job is just to present all the info and let the reader decide for themselves -- like with the Dune Encyclopedia vs. KJA/BH interpretations. But I also think the possible Erewhon influence/tribute is worth mentioning. In general, I think that there should be more academic-type content to this article, not just plot summaries. The Butlerian Jihad was relevent to all kinds of luddite, technophobia, anti-technology circles and/or references and may have been used in that context. It'd be great to track some of that stuff down. -- Macduff 05:27, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Sorry but that isn't an option since we are to avoid weasel words, but if you find any reliable source discussing it then they can be included in the way you mentioned earlier. Konman72 09:03, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

I have to agree with Konman on this one. Blogs by fans, newsgroups, discussion boards, etc., are not acceptable sources, even for (true) statements like "some fans speculate that...". --SandChigger 16:27, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Landsraad ref in Rise of the thinking machines section

The Landsraad, by OLD Canon, predates the post-Jihad religious riots by 2,000 years. Please see my comment here. --SandChigger 05:55, 28 January 2007 (UTC)