Talk:Butch and femme

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Contents 1 femme 2 Lipstick lesbians 3 Femme vs Fem 4 transwoman vs transgendered female 5 Advertising dating sites 6 Butch 7 Uh?

[edit] femme

The f should be lower-case, I think, but since both words are adjectives, I think this should be moved to butch and femme subcultures (note the plural in the title). Any other suggestions

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[The following comment has been moved in line with its reference.]

Regarding the capitalization comment at the top of the page, I think this article does need to be renamed to conform with Wikipedia style (unless Butch and Femme are characters ala Itchy and Scratchy ;) Thus, I'm renaming it. I'll leave further renaming to someone else more knowledgable. Gwimpey 23:35, Nov 23, 2004 (UTC)

We should start selling the TV rights now. I can see the elevator pitch for it now: Butch and Femme: "just two girls trying to make their way in the Big Apple; part Odd Couple, part part Laverne & Shirley, part Moonlighting". -- The Anome 16:50, May 27, 2005 (UTC)

Butch and Femme can be nouns to identify certain people but they can also be adjectives to describe someone's attributes/characteristics. This entry muddies the two and is not clear in that area. --Mic 05:22, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Lipstick lesbians

I've got issues with your portrayal of lipstick lesbians (media cliche term) as femmes who are attracted to other femmes. I'm not sure these creatures are common outside hollywood and male fantasies. I'm willing to accept that I lead a sheltered life and/or that this is a US-based thing.

Secretlondon 19:12, Sep 26, 2003 (UTC)

Oh, is being attracted to butches an inherent quality of femmeness? How interesting. - Montréalais 08:36, 27 Oct 2003 (UTC)

no, just (conventionally) feminine lesbian women who are attracted to each other, I'm assuming that you were having trouble with the issue of femme identity, since I have a hard time believing that anyone wouldn't be able to understand how one pretty gay woman could be attracted to another

I've never heard of a pretty gay woman. Always, everytime, the attractive "lesbian" turns out to be bi, or maybe plain straight, and just foolin'. Very rarely asexual. But then thats only everything I've ever seen, heard, experienced or read about ;) Sam [Spade] 23:52, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Do we have any lesbian contributors who can revise this article? They would be in a better position to know. -- The Anome 00:04, Oct 29, 2004 (UTC)

All I know is this: At least since I was in secondary school, it has been in to be a "lesbian". In my Highschool, at least 1/3rd of the girls claimed to be lesbians, but hardly any did anything beyond kissing in front of the boys to get them excited. Nothing has changed in the world as I know it since then. Sam [Spade] 00:17, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Well, just because I haven't seen the Dalai Lama, doesn't mean he doesn't exist... ;) I'll go through the article now and try and make some edits if need be. Dysprosia 09:48, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I've seen the Dalai Lama ;) Sam [Spade] 13:45, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Oh well ... I have seen many good looking lesbian women, and I doubt they were "actually" bisexual or asexual, or "straight and fooling". I also never heard of a place where it is or was "in" to pretend to be lesbian; although of course it is a reasonable course when the guys available are maybe not exactly desireable. After all, women like character and intelligence, too. -- AlexR 17:33, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)

The Anome - yes, you do have lesbian contributors who are willing to work on this article. My attention was only just drawn to the article today, but I am happy to revise it, including input from both butches and femmes I know who have also expressed an interest in helping. -Etoile 14:28, 27 May 2005 (UTC)

Thank you! This article could do with some knowledgeable help. -- The Anome 16:54, May 27, 2005 (UTC)

Alas, while I am a lesbian I'm quite young and indeed a virgin, so I can't really help you, although I am a femme who is attracted to femmes. -- 172.128.168.31 22:13, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Femme vs Fem

The word "fem" is usually used for men and "femme" for women. The phrase "fem men" returns 28,300 results on Google, "femme men" returns 1,870. "Fem man" returns 15,800 and "femme man" returns 992 (most of which seem unrelated). I changed it in the article but there should be some sort of explanation / origin there. Foxxygirltamara 00:21, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

As I recall, google would include the results for "femme" as well as those for "fem" in your search, because everytime you use the letters f-e-m-m-e connected to each other, you're also spelling out f-e-m. So, those results would be invalid. Though, if I'm wrong feel free to tell. Lass Lethe 01:32, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] transwoman vs transgendered female

My view is that transwomen and transmen are generally self-identified labels whereas transgendered fe/male also describes those that don't necessarily identify with the gender they choose to present. Of course, the usage of any labels or descriptions within a genderqueer context is fraught with opportunity to offend, even for those of us on the inside. Personally, I prefer "person of gender". Fanx 16:42, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

I see it precisly the other way around - transgender is one of many possible self-identifications, and so are male and female. Transman and transwoman have been coined to replace the old male-to-female and female-to-male; so many people protested against the first part that new words seemed to be in order. Hence transman and transwoman are less problematic than those, especially since they also avoid the war about transsexual vs. transgender vs. transvestite vs. whatever. They are not perfect, but they are an improvement. If, on the other hand, you start defining many transsexual-identitfied woman as transgender, you are bound to get an edit war.

And I don't quite understand your definition - transgender people are people who don't identify with the sex they were assigned at birth, but why should they not identify with the gender they choose to present? The whole point of transitioning is to be able to present as a gender one can identify with - or that is at least closer to the one a person identifies with. -- AlexR 19:44, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

In this case we are not talking about persons that identify as female or are transitioning, what we are talking about is men who have sex with persons they identify as being male but presenting a female appearance in order to deny their own same-gender sexual activity as being homosexual. A transgendered person does not necessarily have to identify as being of the gender they are presenting - there are plenty of drag queens, (self-identified) she-males and en-femme transvestites that that do not consider themselves as female even if they are engaging in sexual activities with self-identified heterosexual males. As transgender(ed) female also means presenting a female external identity regardless of the internal (male or female) identity I feel my definition is more correct than yours. You are wrong in presuming that I am about to start defining any transsexual-identitfied woman as transgender - quite the opposite, and having read your userpage and some of your edits I would have thought we were broadly in agreement that transgender doesn't necessarily mean transsexual. Given that this article is about butch and femme identities I do not propose to enter into any edit war over a definition that is best left to the appropriate Transgender pages. Of course my reference to preferring the definition "person of gender" should in no way be taken seriously as it is no more than a parody of a couple of well-known euphemisms. Fanx 14:59, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Hmmm ... well, if those male-bodied people do not identify as female (or at least as not-male) then they are not transgender, either. At least according to every definition I have come accross so far. Now, as for "presenting a female appearance in order to deny their own same-gender sexual activity as being homosexual", that is a very tricky one. Because, you know, there are an awful lot of transpeople who use a claim like this to deny their transgender feelings. Of course, people you describe exist as well. Making it extremely tricky to firmly put people showing that behaviour into one one category or the other. Besides, if they also have relationships to women, they are not homosexual anyway, they would be bisexual. And there are certainly enough men who have sex with other men who otherwise identify as straight without presenting as or identifying as female or not-male. One can of course say that is kind of missing the point - or one can questiont the identity politics behind trying to fit people into neat hetero-, homo- and bisexual boxes. Either way it is problematic to slap them with a label they neither necessarily fit nor self-identify with. -- AlexR 17:19, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Transgender is a broad category. It does include people who do not have any intention to transition to a different gender but they do not identify with their current gender assignment. I typically hear transgender used more within the butch-femme community, mostly comprised of born biologically female individuals. You have transgender butches who are still female but do not identify as woman. Judith Halberstam has a good definition in her book Female Masculinity (1998) (quoted under fair use clause from wikipedia): "Transgender describes a gender identity that is at least partially defined by transitivity but that may well stop short of transsexual surgery" (p. 161). Please delete the quoted material if it falls outside of fair use.--Mic 05:44, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Advertising dating sites

Hi

We run the UKs premier Butch-Femme site and dating site.

Could you please link to us at

www.butch-femme.co.uk and www.butchfemmedating.co.uk

Thanks My email is liverpoolbutch@butch-femme.co.uk 82.42.192.24 11:32, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Not only do I see no reason at all to link that page -- Wikipedia is not a link repository -- I was very close to remove even this comment from this talk page. This is so unashamed advertising, that it makes me wonder whether you have even the faintest idea where you are. Unless a site has lots of information on a topic not present already on a linked page -- and a site that advertises itself as dating site has most probably not -- it does not belong in the Wikipedia. Which, just so that there is no misunderstanding, does mean I have anything against that site, if I currently had a page where it is appropriate I would link there -- only, as I said, not here. Unless there is a really good reason. And then you can do it yourself. -- AlexR 15:49, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

The first site is not a dating site, it's a social site for butch/femme women in the UK. There was already a link to a similar US website, so I added the UK one. (But not the dating site!) Jennifer Brooks 19:03, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Butch

The photo of the butch-femme couple is completely unrealistic. the "butch" in this photo is just a feminine woman wearing a pant suit. There is nothing Butch about her at all. I suggest you do some more research and find a better photo —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.82.165.4 (talk • contribs) 20:08, 4 December 2006 (UTC).

[edit] Uh?

"Power femmes can be anything that empowers them to be the idea of femme "energy". Demure can be part of that. So it is an evolving concept of empowerment within the community."

Sounds like abracadabra to me. --91.148.159.4 22:40, 31 March 2007 (UTC)