Talk:Buffalo English

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[edit] Merge

Is there anyone besides myself who thinks that some of the information in this article should be merged into the Buffalo, New York article? I think "dialect" is definitely a misnomer. -- CJ Withers 08:39, 24 March 2006 (UTC)\

I would agree with you about "dialect" being improperly used, but I think there are enough quirks to English in and around Buffalo, and enough other articles devoted to regional American Englishes that have even less to note around them, that this article can and should stay separate. Daniel Case 14:00, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Hm. The quirks are only a handful and at least half the information is not unique to Buffalo. Hence, it is not notable and seems to reflect identity politics, i.e. vanity, more than anything else. This is similar to how there was a title for Vermont-New Hampshire English, which was just ludicrous because there's no such thing. It's New England bounded by the Connecticut River, not the two states mentioned that form a dialect/difference. If there's no dialect and just some quirks, there shouldn't be an encyclopedia (Wikipedia) article. "Buffalo English" is in fact a blurb, not an article.

Plus, Almost no one will be looking for this article under its current title. That's why it would be better to have a short line or two about what the distinctly Buffalo charactistics are. In fact, I lighted upon this article because I was searching for something entirely different. I'm convinced that more people will discover the quirks if they're read them on the Buffalo, New York page. -- CJ Withers 17:37, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

There is actually some real research on this, I know (just don't know where ... oh wait, some of it is referenced here in this old page put together by a friend of mine). If Pittsburgh English, which used to look like this, can become what it has become (or California English, for that matter), this one has the same potential (Although it probably should be renamed "Western New York English," since these things really aren't totally peculiar to Buffalo.

I should stop talking and update the article appropriately. Daniel Case 02:59, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Oh, this page should become the reference section. Daniel Case 03:01, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

(Please excuse how I haven't tiered my answers; it's just to save space) It's interesting how you have the Sankoff/Cedregen article (I almost had a class with Cedregen, but my schedule didn't work). What's important about the sources on the page you site is that it often mentions the ethnic groups' pronunciations/contributions, etc. Just because they were observed IN Buffalo doesn't make it unique to Buffalo. Check out the article I reworked on Quebec English. I mention the Italian and Jewish communities and state clearly that their contributions are found wherever they're found. The Polish in Pgh and the Polish in Buffalo are Polish, and thus not specific to either of these places. In fact, I'm sure you can find the same things in NYC and some of my relatives who lived in Wallington, NJ the Polish epicenter of NJ.

The analogy that Buffalo should have an article of its own because Pittsburgh has one is specious. Pittsburgh is at the crossroads of several dialect areas plus has its own aspects. Though near the Canadian Border, Buffalo, however, is completely surrounded in/by a homogenous area and is also a part of the Northern Cities Vowel Shift. Logically, "Buffalo English" should figure on that page if there are any notable phonological phenomena. Again, minus the ethinic communities' practices, there is very little to justify a dialect and therefore an article. Btw, it's common in NYC to hear "possessification", especially with department store or nightclub names: Spectrum's, K-mart's, Limelight's (and probably by analogy with Macy's, Bloomingdale's, Sears, etc. more than anything else). This practice might merit its own article, but again, more sources would need to be found. Hope to find out more on what you think... -- CJ Withers 06:16, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Well, maybe, you seem to have the creds to say these things, but I must say that, having grown up in (and currently living in) part of the NYC area I have never heard that possessification to anything like the degree I heard it when I lived in Buffalo.

I would suggest that you be a bit more familiar with the near-Midwest before making broad statements as to the ethnic impact on local speech. "Polish" in Buffalo means a lot more than "Polish" in Cleveland. I also lived there for a while, and while the two cities do share the Northern Cities Vowel Shift (it is, in fact, a little bit more pronounced in NE Ohio), there are not the peculiarities noted in this article and by every other observer of Buffalo English, peculiarities which have been traced to the Polish population. (The only difference from my native NY/NJ English which I heard was dropping the definite article for some things (i.e., high school kids in Cleveland go to prom rather than to the prom as they do even in Buffalo, and that's a phenomenon heard elsewhere in the Midwest as well).

Unlike Cleveland or Pittsburgh, where the Poles are just one of many Eastern and Central European immigrant populations, in Buffalo Polish is it. Pulaski Day and Dyngus Day are big local events, as big (if not bigger) than St. Patrick's Day.

The Irish, Italian and German populations are also important and shaped the region, but as you note in your Quebec English article their local linguistic contributions are not geographically unique. But I did get the feeling (and Tasman seems to note this, then again he was a friend of mine at one time) that there are some more widespread phonologic impacts of Polish-American in Buffalo not present in Cleveland (granted, I didn't live in Parma (which is Cleveland's Polish center) so I don't know if they have.

As for specious articles in this vein, I'm also amused that there's a Northeast Pennsylvania English, as I live adjacent to that region and I don't hear anything unusual there. But it has notes and everything. Daniel Case 04:00, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Hmmm...I agree and disagree with you, and maybe that's why I find this an interesting and fruitful discussion. Let's get something straight, first. I wouldn't use my credentials simply to justify an observation, a finding or a truth. However, it is my experience and methodology that help me do my job. Now I'm going to answer some of the things you said just above.

Logically, there is no argument about Buffalo Enlgish via how big the Pulaski Day Parade is. With such logic, then NYC variations would be greater due to the number of Poles plus the number of Polish descendants plus the fact that (if it's still done), the color of the lights of the Empire State Building are changed to red and white for Pulaski Day. If anything, a large or overwhelmingly influential linguistic contribution by Poles is notable, then an article on language phenomena should be labeled thus, no? For example, imagine "Polish influence on English in Buffalo"; or maybe it should be more useful in galvanizing the currently weak Pinglish article, which mentions nothing about contributions to true English. Maybe a better reworking could be done in collobaration with these articles: List of English words of Polish origin , a.k.a. Words of Polish origin. So, with guidelines, it needs to be determined if X phenomenon is by Poles, by descendants of Poles, by non-descendants of Poles, by all Buffalo (area) residents, not attested to anywhere else, etc. The same goes for other unique things. Otherwise, there's no merit for an article and in the meantime, I'll keep on observing a good friend from Buffalo (whom I've known for 7 years) and who has the NCVS and is of Polish descent. (Nothing notable in his speech, save for the "K-mart's" thing, which, again, made me think of NYC.)

I couldn't agree with you more on the fact that there are many inappropriate or misleading articles on American Dialects, never mind languages in general. Consult Juantania. It might sound good to some but it's a total fake. As for Northeastern PA, I, too, was surprised. However, it would be interesting to know how much of its difference still exists and to what extent it can be found among the local population. Remember, there are vanity pages for language varieties too, especially when someone wants to showcase their thesis abstract/summary. For example, even though I do know that there are (notice the plural) New York Area English(es) (I prefer to say "accents", not "English" or "dialect"; you'll note that that's how I classify it in the English dialects box on MySandbox page), virtually all the data about them dates back two or three generations. That's hardly helpful knowing how much human migration/movements, radio, television, cable and even podcasting have a leveling effect. In fact, that's probably why I barely have a regional accent aside from an American one. What's more, the current Mayor of New York Bloomberg flip-flops in his own idolect. His r's are very inconsistent. This leaves one at a loss to say if his speech is either rhotic or non-rhotic. Btw, even Queen Elizabeth II's pronunciation has evolved over the decades.

All I'm asking for is rigor and standards so that quality can be raised and accesibilty increased. I'm of the opinion that guidelines and collaboration are the keys to making the extremely disparate articles on dialects and "Englishes" worthy. -- CJ Withers 05:37, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Well, my point there was that the Polish influence on Buffalo's speech is present because there's a large Polish immigrant community which didn't totally drop the native language (Even though most of the kids have moved away from the old neighborhoods on Buffalo's East Side, sometimes you still see apartments advertised in Polish (though I'm told this is now really sort of a racist thing, on the assumption that blacks cannot read Polish nor figure out that that's a way to try to keep them from inquiring about the apartment) and the schools still offer Polish as a language (or at least they still were into the 1990s)).

And the point I got away from making was that this influence did carry over into the greater speech community. Some of the old-country immigrants used to make sure their kids had the accent even though they were native English speakers. Not all of the peculiarities survived, but some did (and you can still hear a touch of it in some otherwise plain-vanilla NCVS speakers of strong Polish descent in their 40s or so when they get really emotional when talking). Many of these people were among the first local radio and TV personalities; thus some of their speech patterns spread beyond the enthnic community.

Again, I totally agree with you about dialects ... perhaps these articles should be titled "American English in Buffalo," "American English in Northeastern Pennsylvania," etc. Maybe what needs to be done is some sort of WikiProject:English, under the WP:LANG auspices, to get the standardization and quality you seek. You do have a point.

I would be the first to volunteer to help but I'm busy with enough ongoing things here as it is. Daniel Case 18:22, 27 March 2006 (UTC)